But as I pointed out
(you may have overlooked it)
the principal is payed with public money, too.
So he should stick to the constitution he is payed from.

so if they have an unpaid volunteer come in

and do the prayer it would be ok

interesting

and i wonder does the principal doing announcement

at football game part of their official duties

maybe they are not getting paid for it

then getting paid is not the issue

The principal is in employment with the state,
so he has to represent the state.
Even if he does it in his own time,
if he does it on public ground,
he is still representing the state.
I don't know your constitution well enough
to talk about a volunteer though.

so if a public employee is not permitted to

do anything not approved by the state no matter

when or where they are

then i guess they should not ever go to a religous meeting of any kind

and i guess every president that has attended a religious
service should be impeached because as a public representative
they would be seeming saying it is the govt approval cause they went

interesting concept

I'm still talking about a public place,
meaning a place that's owned by the state.

he leaves state owned housing

enters state owned transportation

piloted and guarded by state paid personnel

uses state owned roadway to get there

so on and so forth

Amendment I

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances

http://www.law.cornell.edu/constitution/constitution.billofrights.html#amendmenti
-----------

they are passing law prohibiting the free exercise of a state employee from practicing their religion

------------

Bible in Basic English
For not only was the word of the Lord sounding out from you in Macedonia and Achaia, but in every place your faith in God is made clear; so that we have no need to say anything.

http://bible.cc/1_thessalonians/1-8.htm

adj, you asked: "why is it that you only picked those two lines to respond to

to control one thing because it is not to your liking

leads to also controlling the things which you want down the
road ""

I chose to respond to the part of your reply that I though stayed more closely on the topic.

Like you, I see our liberties being chiseled away just as you do. Where we may have a difference is in the way we view what has been taken. The Federal government was supposed to have a limited set of duties. One of those duties was to make sure that the foundations that the Constitution is based on was never put in peril by the States as they set their own laws. This has degraded over time. We, those alive today, have not created the all the problems that exist.

Historically, the poeple of this country have been vastly limited in their education. Along with that, until very recently, our communicatons WITH our elected officials has also been extremely limited.

For the better part of the last 100 years, the masses have been struggling for a better life. The government was all but given free reighn to do as those in power saw fit. And if they sold thier ideas, as a bill of goods,to the public, all was well and good.

But as time passed the laws that were enacted have been brought out into a different light. In that new light we can see just how corrupted the system has become.

We can't change everything all at once, not without a major civil war. So we have to attempt KEEP those things in line with the value that the original Constitution was trying to set forth. We also have to attempt change those things, one by one, little by little, that have gone awry.

THERE HAS BEEN NO LOSS to the freedom of religion. There has been a movement to correct an error that had been allowed to exist for a long time. The reason it existed was because those who opposed it were, themselves oppressed. The new comers, who had not the knowledge of their homeland, the blacks whose oppression caused them to remain silent for so long, and the atheists who were demoralized and beaten for their view. And the homosexuals who STILL fear being recognised. Together,they have become a voice, big enough and loud enough to have affected a change. A change to reverse something that NEVER should have been.

Consider, why was the freedom of speech such an important issue that it needed to be so profoundly set forth?

The reason is, that even the minorities have a right to speak. That whenever, an individual or a group perceives a threat, to the basic values, the liberties, that this country was meant to grant, that those people had the right to speak up and point out the error or the concern. CHECKS AND BALANCES.

Freedom of speech, like any of our rights, must be used responsibly or it ceases to have the value it was meant to provide.

i knew we agreed in principal

but the expression of ones religion is also protected by speech

as i posted above ::::::::::::::::

-----------------------

Amendment I

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances

http://www.law.cornell.edu/constitution/constitution.billofrights.html#amendmenti
-----------

they are passing law prohibiting the free exercise of a state employee from practicing their religion

------------

Bible in Basic English
For not only was the word of the Lord sounding out from you in Macedonia and Achaia, but in every place your faith in God is made clear; so that we have no need to say anything.

http://bible.cc/1_thessalonians/1-8.htm
-----------------------

and i am pretty sure you know how i feel about organized religion red

organized religion ====== the root of all evil

but it is still protected

and if those that do not want a prayer said

could protest

could boycot

and so on

but a law

then what will be next

no public endorsement of anything

because if yer in public

you may be endorsing something the next guy oposes

as i said in another post

the sidewalk on the street corner is also state owned

just a thought

but what do i know

adj - you write: ""they are passing law prohibiting the free exercise of a state employee from practicing their religion""

What bill do you speak of. I'm not aware of this. I've been somewhat following the new regulations they are discussing that civil and government employees must adhere to. The only think, so far, I've seen in that is that employees need to be conscious of the contents of their outgoing emails. Logically they don't want any political slander or opinion being sent out, it could cost someone their job. But that's all I've seen.

Do you have a link I can view to find out about your statment?

I'm an advocate of the Constitution, it may be one of the only real "belief" systems I have. I stand by it and for it and will do whatever I can to uphold it, with all it's original intentions.

I just have to say here:

I can't ask for justice, with dirty hands.

TLW - Keep your heart and mind clean and soap will do the rest.
The passage of time brings changes, sometimes the change is in us, sometimes in others but the winds that carry change have a way of redistributing the dirt.

DJ-

When I was in high school we did have someone who preached on the street corner outside the school.

I do think that the principal asking all to join in a prayer at a school event is different. As far as how free he could be with his speech.... if he had advocated the use of condoms instead of asking for prayer- at the school I attended that would have lost him his job.

If he had made a speech in favor of same sex marriage rights he would have lost his job.

If he had said "Jesus christ" as a curse instead of an invocation he would have lost his job....

A principal of a school has special authority when he/she is speaking at a school event and that authority comes with authority and responsibility and yes some restrictions on his free speech while he is at work or acting in the function of his job.

To me this is not an unwarrented check on free speech. You can't always say what you want when you are at work or a work function. I might wish to tell my boss to hush up when he bores me to tears with his long wandering speeches about baseball... but it would not be wise for me to do so.

On the other hand, here in this place you may say anything you wish... free speech yes? Except you cannon threaten another.... so there is free speech but it always has limits.

my only point is that i respect people regardless of their choices.
if i do so, why can't i be respected for my choices?
i just don't understand what's so wrong about a school principal asking people to join him in a prayer. What is the harm for God's sake?
I have to agree with adj4u. If you are there, and u don't want to join it's fine, be quiet and respect others.
I've been invited to Jehovah witnesses meetings, I'm there quiet looking and listening, but i don't join to any of the activities they do there, but I don't feel offended by them.
And my other point is that honestly, at some point it's frustrating being flexible and respectful for other choices even though I know that those choices most of the times are wrong whoices, but i keep firm my believe I'm not here to judge, but to share common interests.
Now if I do so, the least I expect others to do the same for me, even if they think I'm wrong or crazy.
Ergo, I firmly, and with all due respect,restate my affirmation:
"I can't ask for justice, with dirty hands."

Redy- I think you shine as well. It means a lot to have the admiration of someone you yourself admire

Invisible- Good to see you here my sister.

DJ- I have "hugz" for you... regardless of whether we agree or not...

Miguel- If you are invited to anothers church or religious meeting you know ahead of time and have agreed to participate- if you go to a sports event, or send your children to one, do you have a reasonable expectation that they will be asked to participate in a religion?

Please think honestly, would you feel the same if you sent your child to a school sports event and later you found out that they were asked to pray to Satan?

Because that's what it's like for some of these people. I personally have many Jewish friends here in Miami and their grand parents have in many cases been persecuted and killed by christians in the name of Jesus Christ and they don't want their children and grand children to pray to that image that has caused their family so much pain....

do u know how many irish brothers and sisters died and were treated as dogs over the centuries for being catholics? Do u know how many catholic priests and nuns died during world war II next to the jews?

I would take care of the education of my children in the house, so if they go to any activity at school in which they are requested to be in such a thing, they will have the strength not to join, but to respectfully observe.

Yes, and that is one of the reasons I feel the way I do. Because I feel organized religions bring repression and even death. People become so obsessed with their beliefs that they decide everyone must believe as they do. You are making my points for me now M.

People were treated like dogs for being catholics. People in this country were treated like dogs for being Atheists in the 1950's. Jews are treated like "christ killers" right here and now.

This is *exactly* why I feel so strongly that a public school should not endorse any one single religion. by asking for the prayer the principal was endorsing that religion.

If you would like your children to participate in organized prayer in school you are free to send them to a religious school. Public school is not a choice. It is required. In a free country with freedom of religion no one should be required to pray or witness the prayers of others.

u have several points in there with which I agree, I just have a question:

Why is so offensive or harmfull to witness a prayer?
Are the kids going to be psychologically harmed by witnessing a prayer?

I can only speak for myself- it made me uncomfortable as a child because I wanted to please. Many children just want to please the adults. If you have adults telling you different things- e.g. one thing as home and another thing at school- there is no way you can please them all.

School should be a safe, neutral place to learn, yes?

For me if he had asked for a moment of silence or to pray for each individuals god or meditate quietly I would actually think that would not be harmful. But to be so specific as to mention Jesus... that would not be ok to me.

I understand and respect that fact that you see Jesus as a loving figure, that could not possibly be harmful. but this is not true for everyone. For some, even some who have posted here, for example they were beaten in the name of Jesus as children.

And in this example he didn't just pray. He called gay people perverts. How does the child of gay parents feel about having their authority figure say such a thing? What about the young adult who feels that they may be gay? Harm? Yes.

And that's my point really, we can't just say anything we want at work. And we can't always guess what harm we may be doing.

So why not just refrain? Why do you have to pray at a non-religious event? Or can't you just pray silently? Why must others pray with you in this place and time?

I'm off to bed. Sweet dreams to all.