http://www.answers.com/topic/jesse-dirkhising
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Jesse Dirkhising (May 24, 1986–September 26, 1999) was a 13-year-old boy who was raped and tortured by two men in 1999. Dirkhising died soon after as a result of his torture. Controversy ensued over the lack of coverage in mainstream media outlets of Dirkhising's murder. This lack of coverage was attributed to the homosexuality of the perpetrators by some commentators and media organizations.
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If (if! hypothetical!) the structure of scouting combined with the inclusion of homosexuals would put young boys at some kind of risk, then maybe the structure of scouting should be reconsider? Separation by ages, degree of supervision, etc. ?

To participate in a summer camp in astronomy, I had to join a scout-like organization, think it was "explorers". It was co-ed, and we had no problems.

Hell, maybe its time to make scouting itself co-ed - so many males get special recognition in our society for making 'eagle' - women have no chance for that.

Well, thats three.

Spider...I love people. All people. No matter what color, race, creed or sexuality. I will always be there to stand up for one that cannot stand up for him, herself. Right is right. And wrong is wrong.
I do appreciate you sir. I know it sometimes doesn't sound like it, but I do.
Kat

Philosopher,

If (if!) careless encouragement of gays in an all male spend-the-night-paired-in-tents-away-from-home organization placed boys at risk, which is better:

a) Carefully examining the actual risk factors and addressing them, protecting against malicious -individuals-, or

b) categorically excluding a set of people who are, individually, as capable of resposible behavior as anyone else?

Really, I can see arguments for both answers, but would like to hear your thoughts when its phrased this way.

"I do appreciate you sir. I know it sometimes doesn't sound like it, but I do. "

I appreciate the sentiment, but this thread isn't about me or your feelings about me. I have had it with threads that turn into how each person feels about the other rather than focusing on the subject at hand.

Because you only know of three crimes commited by Homosexuals doesn't mean others don't happen. I have provided facts about homosexuals and the higher rates at which they molest boys. Those aren't religious studies, they are scientific. And whatever your opinion on me, the homosexuality, the studies I posted, the weather, the color blue or any other subject is, it doesn't change the fact that the boyscouts are a privite institution. They have the right to choose their membership. Any suggestion that the government should determine a private organizations membership is a step towards communism.

Very well said.
Kat

Actually spider...I was just tired of all the retoric. Saw something wrong and wanted to right it.
My personal opinion of you or your threads is not why I posted that. I meant it.
I could care less about the boyscouts club. Let'em eat soup.
What I care about is the subject matter.
About me or you? I never said it was spider. That is foolish.
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Very well said was to massagetrade.

Kat

Spider,

Most people (myself included) are illogical - conversations deteriorate due to emotional factors / personal dislikes. I see your intelligent/logical views (derived from assumptions I don't share) being attacked partly for personal reasons. You want (i think) people to listen to the merit of your words separate from their inter-personal biases, but its not realistic. Cultivating an atmosphere of respect/courtesy/empathy can help minimize the "interpersonal cognitive dissonance" (terms abused on purpose).

What I'm saying is, I think Kat's recent positive sentiment towards you WAS part of the process of giving fair consideration to your ideas, as illogical as that may seem.

You seem to reject (the sentiment), and since we are emotional, illogical creatures, some of us will be less likely to listen to your view, and more likely to attack you. Its not right, but it is. The reason I try sometimes to create harmony is not for its own fluffy sake, but because helps people to really think about others' views.

It's the evolution of the species.
Man has used every tool available to maintain a constnt of change. Right from the stone age until present day. Fire, better tools, weapons, the wheel, oil, etc. and right to the nuclear age with ability to end all life on the planet.
Leadership and control was an issue from the time we started to gather in numbers and grow into communities and to what we have in this day and age. Someone had to take charge and lead the masses, provide stability, protection and a sense of direction to keep everything from falling into total chaos.
Religion has been one perfect example of this. Creating a belief system that could be marketed with love and respect and enforced through fear and segregation. Love thy neighbour and thou shalt not kill to Brand "X" says Brand "K" is no good and they don't believe what we do so A: We'll try and get along until we can assimilate them all to prevent them from taking over. Or B: We must destroy them all as soon as possible to prevent them from taking over. It applies to all perversions of all the popular faiths. Christianity included!
When you take a group such as the Boy Scouts and apply the same set of tactics, you're creating generation after generation of people that do a lot of good in their prospective communities but believe the same old propaganda that has been regurgitated for several millenium, "They're different, don't trust them".
It's a very effective way of perpetuating myths and instilling fear of things unknown.
Gays, lesbians or homosexuals or whatever term you want to provide being one of them. They are a part of our society and of mankind and have been since the dawn of time. Same as every other evolving diversity of the species, being as unique as any other. No different than being of a different colour or ethnicity or even a chosen religion.
Some choose to see tolerence as a weakness or a threat to the status quo. Is it because they're taught to believe this or because they honestly "know" it to be true? What did their "good book" tell them to do? Have they followed the manuscript that was placed before them to the letter?
Oddly enough, all the "good books" left enough room for the human race to make mistakes. To be human, is to be fallable.
Do you honestly believe that what the Boy Scout movement is doing is right? Is this the way we want to raise our next generation? More intolerence and more segregation?

massagetrade,

Don't tell me what you think about me, show me. Words have no weight when you actions contradict them. I am so tired of seeing someone get attacked by others and then the attackers say "I think you are a good guy.". What? You just said I'm a terrible Christian, I act like a Nazi, I am a homophobe, I am a liar, etc etc etc. I think that sometimes people say something that they later regret and instead of saying "Sorry", they think they can compliment the person and make it right. What would you say about a man who beat his wife and then gave her flowers, chocolates and told her that he loved her? I would like to see a little of this "love" that I hear so many talk about, but so far...nothing! It's like how voil thinks that if he says "Nothing personal, but your views are the same as the people who started the crusades and inquisition. Your beliefs are what is wrong with the world and I look forward to a day when there are no people like you. Once again, no offense 'spider'." HELLO?!!!! If you say "No offense", it doesn't mean that someone can't be offended when you insult them. So you guys do what feels right, but if you insult me or my beliefs, I don't have to act like everything is cool so that you can comfort your conscience. If you feel guilty later, say sorry and take your lumps, don't be a wimp and compliment instead of appologize.

There is a place near me. I have visited since I was a boy! Its a park, along the French Broad River where families go on a warm day and have a picnic. They enjoy the water, grill out, relax and enjoy the day! Then people started complaining and were afraid to take their families there.

The reason they said were things like men approaching them and having sex along the many trails their children and themselves would walk! So the police sent undercover families there. Broad daylight and publicly. Just another normal day!

The first month they arrested 27 men! Gay, many of the arrest were for being caught in the act of sexual relations!

Daylight mind you and with families (children) utilizing the same area! Some of these men were married, but that doesnt make them straight. Marriage is not an indicator to homosexuality.

This has not been an isolated incident either. Three other public Parks have had similar problems in the two years since the example above!

As it has been reported and acknowledge by the gay communitee, North Carolina's laws against homosexuals are among the strictest in the country.

It is for this reason that we are targeted by the gay Communitee and they are moving here to challenge those laws. Hoping to raise the gay population and therefore the voting power in an effort to over-ride the majority straight bible belt voters!

I personally could care less, but leave the boyscouts out of it!
If you want to challenge the bible belt anti-gay laws, leave the rogues in California!! Dont bring them here, we will throw them in jail!!!

Sorry Glen,
They're a part of the evolution too. Just another step towards whatever it is we're progressing towards. Still a lot of good people involved in the organisation, but the BS has to end.

Spider,

Did you use "you" as in "one" (not me), or as in me personally, or in the plural (in(ex?)cluding me) ?

I agree with much of your last post. My previous points were IMO orthogonal to your own.

I didn't read any of the other responses after my heated comments to some who view contrary mine views. I make no apologies them because in my heart those who alienate and vilifly a group of people simply because they don't fit into "Christian values" or traditional morals are cowards.

They are cowards because they flee from uncomfortable situations with homosexuals. They say it's "against God will" and that Gays are "sinful" in for their very existance. Any intelligent and reasonable person can simply argue to them "Why did God made them gay if it's against God's will?"

Their response back to that argument is 1) ignorance, 2) continue to preach bigotry and hatered, 3) to disprove or disavow the truth in that plain and honest question, 4) or, even more cowardly, give no reply.

To them I give no apologies as clearly I have stated my disgust of hatered in the disguise by them in the words of "God's will."

Scout Oath (or Promise)

On my honor I will do my best
To do my duty to God and my country
and to obey the Scout Law;
To help other people at all times;
To keep myself physically strong,
mentally awake, and morally straight.



Now could someone show me where exactly it specifies Christian God. I am an Odinist and spent many years as a Leader in a Cub Pack. The last of those as Akela. We had a Muslim in the Pack as well. The only other time I'd heard of kids being denied access to Scouting was again in the States, that time because the youths were Atheists and therefore unable to do their duty to God by the reckoning of the local Council.

Philosopher I did notice the lack of a Religion in Life badge in there. I guess our kids just have to learn a little more.

Redy, to my knowledge the US is the only place to have refused access to the Scouting Movement to youth. But then news from other countries doesn't necessarily make the news here.

http://childprotection.lifetips.com/cat/63573/sex-offender-statistics/index.html

Characteristics of Offenders Who Violate and Assault Children
According to the Survey of Inmates of State Correctional Facilities by the U.S. Department of Justice Bureau of Justice Statistics, the following statistics have been recorded concerning the characteristics of offenders who violate and assault children.

* Those inmates who were convicted of committing violent acts against children were more like to have been white, a percentage of nearly 70%, than any other race.
* White inmates were nearly three times more likely to have victimized a child than black inmates.
* About one in every seven Hispanic convicts had been convicted for a crime against a child.
* Nearly two-thirds of convicted child molesters and/or offenders were or had been married.
* Child molesters and offenders were more likely to have grown up in a two parent home and were more likely to have been molested as a child.
* Approximately 22% of child offenders reported having been sexually abused as a child.






Child Molester Statistics
According to the U. S. Department of Justice Bureau of Justice Statistics, there were 9,700 convicted sex offenders who were released in one year alone.

* Nearly 4,300 of the 9,700 were labeled child molesters.
* Of the 4,300 child molesters that were released in that one year, 3.3% were rearrested for another sex crime against a child within three years of their release.
* A Bureau of Justice Statistics survey shows that the victims of approximately 70% of the convicted sex offenders were children.
* In almost half of the the child molestation cases, the child was the convicted sex offender's son, daughter, or relative.
* The average sentence given to the 4,300 child molesters was approximately seven years, with three of seven years typically being served.


Hmmm. No where did I see that by Government statistics that gays are more likely to offend than straights.

Here's some more straight from the BSA's own publications. Anybody see any problems here?



The BSA and tolerance:

There are many admirable instances in the BSA literature of pro-active teaching about other religions. They not only teach tolerance; they advocate respect towards other religions, and concern over the human rights of all:
bullet The BSA bylaws state that "activities of the members of the Boy Scouts of America shall be carried on under conditions which show respect to the convictions of others in matters of custom and religion..."
bullet The BSA's Advancement Guidelines state that "Throughout life, Scouts are associated with people of different faiths. Scouts believe in religious freedom, respecting others whose religion may differ from theirs. Scouting believes in the right of all to worship God in their own way."
bullet The Scout Handbook explains: "Your family and religious leaders teach you to know and love God and the ways in which God can be served. As a Scout, you do your duty to God by following the wisdom of those teaching in your daily life, and by respecting the rights of others to have their own religious beliefs."
bullet The Handbook for Boys, 2nd edition discusses a Scout's duty to his country: "...he will stand for the equal opportunity and justice which the Declaration of Independence and the constitution guarantee."
bullet The Scout Handbook discusses:
bullet The "morally straight" clause in the Scout Oath. It implies that the Scout should: "Respect and defend the rights of all people. Your relationships with others should be honest and open. Be clean in your speech and actions, and faithful in your religious beliefs."
bullet The fourth point in the Scout Law "A Scout is friendly" means that: "He seeks to understand others. He respects those with ideas and customs that are different from his own...Every person is an individual with his or her own ideas and ways of doing things. To be a real friend you must accept other people as they are, show interest in them, and respect their differences."
bullet The sixth point of the Scout Law, "A Scout is kind," means that Scouts "take time to listen to the thoughts of other people," to "imagine what it would be like if you were in someone else's place," to be "kind to people you don't know or don't understand, and to people with whom you disagree," and that "compassion for all people is a good antidote to the poisons of hatred and violence."
bullet The seventh point of the Scout Law, "A Scout is obedient," requires the Scout to "obey the laws of his community." In many cities and counties of the U.S. this would include human rights bylaws.
bullet The final point of the Scout Law, "A Scout is reverent," mentions that "All your life you will encounter people who hold different religious beliefs or even none at all. It is your duty to respect and defend the rights of others whose beliefs may differ from yours."
bullet The Explorer Code requires that each youth pledge that, "I will recognize the dignity and worth of all humanity and will use fair play and goodwill in my daily life."
bullet The Learning for Life program promotes "moral and character development," with sections on "race, religion and culture," "respecting differences," and "respecting my peers." The program's intent is "to instill in youth the importance of respecting the rights of all people."
bullet The Scoutmaster Handbook, 7th edition, lists as some symptoms of a Scout's moral fitness: "Courage about what he believes...Respecting the rights of others. Compassion for other's feelings and needs. Acting as if rights of others matter to him. Accepting others as equal in worth and dignity."

These are commendable thoughts and programs which promote tolerance towards minorities, supporting the rights of others, displaying empathy towards people different from themselves. These are principles that are sadly missing from many other youth programs. Unfortunately, the BSA organization's tolerance is extended only towards some religions and towards some sexual orientations.

Spider...I never attacked you, ever. I was apologizing if it seemed that I didn't care for you. Which is an untruth. I do. I appreciate you. As for apologizing for my words and my beliefs...no. I am strong in those. There are just some things that are not right morally, such as being judgemental and denying basic human rights to anyone.

karma; thank you for that. I indeed do see something terribly amiss there. It's a bit hypocritical, don't ya think? It seems that it is the adults that are confusing the scouts in what that says. The children follow these adults. I feel for the children. It still sickens me that a persons personal sexual identity is misconstrued as strictly sexual, with no thought of the heart and the matters within.

A child is taught that he/she can do whatever he puts his/her mind to. That nothing is beyond their reach. Then along come other fearful adults to try and smash that into the ground. Steal it away from them.
"Thou shalt not kill" kill....kill...dreams, minds, bodies, loves, hopes, wishes, desires, there are many types of death. Who gives us the right to take life away from those that are "different" than us?

Kat

Why is it that anyone that speaks out against homosexuals is automaticly a homophobe? Can't people have the right to say they do not agree with peoples choices? What about my rights?
I have several friends that are gay, and they all know how I feel about it. But because I do not let that choice define who they are, we can remain friends. We have agreed to disagree and move on.

The Captain writes:

" Why is it that anyone that speaks out against homosexuals is automaticly a homophobe? Can't people have the right to say they do not agree with peoples choices? What about my rights?
I have several friends that are gay, and they all know how I feel about it. But because I do not let that choice define who they are, we can remain friends. We have agreed to disagree and move on. "


When people use words like 'fag' to voice their disapproval of homosexuality (as has been done in this thread), I think it's intellectually dishonest to say they are just expressing honest disagreement. For them, the key is hatred and no such accomodation as your post suggests can reached.

Maybe it's just me, but as the saying goes, "When did hate become a family value?"

-Kerry O.