The above poster shows a great understanding of legal rules and principles.

Mass - ""but in a mono-sex environment, only same-sex encounters are possible. Its that simple. Same-sex-interested teen males may not be more dangerous than opposite-sex-interested teen males - but hey, there are no girls in boy scouts,...I think the perception of bigotry is wrongly magnified by not taking this into account - we have already segregated the genders (boy scouts, girl scouts), so opposite sex encounters are a non-issue.""

I DO UNDERSTAND what is being said. My counter is that girls date boys ALL THE TIME. Girls as young as 13 and 14 are dating guys who drive. THEY AREN'T ALL GETTING PREGNANT OR EVEN HAVING SEX. And even though 'SOME' are getting raped consider the numbers involved. Consider the situations they're in.

If anything a Gay kid is LESS likely to try to force sex on a straight kid. The reason is so obvious that you all are not seeing it. There is already so much bias against the gay community that a 17 year old kid is not likely to push that envelope,they have enough problems trying to fit in. Now, put that kid in an environment like the scouts for a long enough time to have learned the values they teach and the chances of such an encounter goes down even more.

Then on top of it, there's not going to be some mad rush of homosexuals joining the Scouts. MINORITY, means not that many.
So considering the numbers and the affilition and the situatons,what is the risk factor. Now compare that risk factor to every other part of daily life. If thousands of kids are being sexually abused in one way or another in schools every year, that is by far a greater risk than could be had at the hands of a few boy scouts.

I'll tell ya what Redy. If you'll lead the fight to get the community to drop the slander and defamation of the BSA, Ill support gay marriages!!

We had a gay boy in one of my troops Redy. Im sure he was, but he didnt openly admit it.

Children are cruel, crueler than any adults aside of sadistic idiots and murders. That boy was already singled out for picking on by the other boys. He was still a friend though and liked, but it was obvious to the rest of us he was different.

He was not called fag, or queer anymore than the rest of us called each other fag and queer, and if the adults heard half of what we said to each other we would have been punished.

In other words it was boys being boys. The adults didnt condone it or encourage it! This boy never quit, he was there until his family moved. Boys will be boys though and I wouldnt want to expose a sensitive young gay boy to that kind of peer pressure and picking, not purposely, nor to prove a point.

How old are gay boys when they realize their gay? Seems like I was 11 when I went from Weeblos to Boy scouts. I dont believe my pecker had even gotten hard more than twice by 11.

Being that a boy would be a scout already, for two or three years before he or anyone else realized he was gay, I doubt they would care.

The fight with the BSA wasnt over a boy as I remember it. It was over an adult leader.....

Fanta - I'm NOT AGAINST the BSA. I'm against their getting tax breaks they don't deserve. Look, a lot of guys are still questioning their sexuality at those ages. There's no telling how many gays the scouts have yielded. I don't even want to see the BSA harmed. But they can do something to prevent that.

They can establish themselves as a religious affiliation and get a ton of tax breaks. AND they can be secular all they want.

They can be a private club and do as they please, but we have to recognize that as a private club that discriminates against more than one group of people, they can not be held up to the world or even this country as the American ideal. To continue to give them that honor, is to defile the foundation, the principles of freedom and equality that this country is striving to maintain.

There is no malicious intent in my heart. This is not even a fight I would have chosen and BUT, since it's been done, I'm glad it was. No matter what good we see in a bad situation, it doesn't make the situation ok. It's not ok in this country to substantiate discrimintion for any reason.

Fanta you mentioned that you thought the issue was with Gay scout leaders. I don't know how the Scouts choose thier leadership. I'm familiar with three boy scout leaders in my area. One of them is a Pastor, one is a Professor, head of his department at IUPUI and one was doctor, a local pediatrician.

Gay men come from all walks of like. I know pastors, professors and doctors and teachers and nurses who are all gay.
I know low-lives and scum who are also gay, well I don't really KNOW them, I just know they exist. lol!

I guess what I'm saying is that the human condition is the same no matter the gender boarders they cross. Whatever risk there is with engaging a heterosexual leader,there is also that risk with a homosexual leader. The best they can do is continue their high standards and like the schools we send all our kids to, we just have to take the risk. That's life.

Red, Are you saying that's its your opinion that's its just plain rediculous for a parent to be concerned about lil Johnny spending the weekend, only partly supervised, in a tent with an older boy that has a sexual interest in boys?

What is the American ideal? Dont those men above represent what the American ideal is? I wonder how many of them are gay? I wonder how many of those senators are voting for your cause?

Attacking the BSA does not help your cause. When you are trying to change what is a foundation of tradition, It is an attack!!
The BSA's accomplishments make them worthy of the pitence of tax deferred status they get. Hell we get more for our money thru-them, more bang (a little pun) for the buck from that investment than any government organization.

My troop was sponsered by The Prespyterian church. They bought our tents, cooking equipment, payed for summer camp and various other costs affiliated with our activities.

Are you saying that deserves less tax deffered status than AID's Research? Isnt the gay Communitee being a little petty here. Arent they just looking to make the most noise they can?

It doesnt do your cause any good to attack the BSA!!

Fanta - Specifically, in which ways do you perceive Red as 'attacking' the BSA?

The boys in the scouts do have a wide Range of ages. They seperate theirselves. The older boys dont want an 11 yr old hanging around them. The older boys generally set their tents up further from the fire so that they can have a smidging of space and less agravating from the younger boys!

The younger boys are taught by the older ones, and they do look up to them. It is a good, normal, healthy, and learning enviornment for all involved.

The good troops like ours, required the boys to do all the tasks. We planned the meals, assigned chores, you cook this meal, you wash cookware, you gather firewood, etc...

Most of the rest of our time was involved in merit badge acheivements. some of these achievements involved an older scout being graded for teaching a class, and passing off acheivements of the younger boys.

Some of thes achievements involve strength and discipline. The boys may be required to plan a 25 mile hike and complete it alone or with another scout! If done properly it is a valuable learning expeirence for a young man!

Why pick on them? It makes no ****ing sense!!!

Maybe not redy specificaly, but the gay and Lesbian Communitee is and they are aiming!!!!

Foul, Foul, I cry and ask, Pick a different target. This fight noone wins!!!

Thanks.

Fanta writes:
"What is the American ideal? Dont those men above represent what the American ideal is? I wonder how many of them are gay? I wonder how many of those senators are voting for your cause?

In all things this country has stood by the ideal that individuals be allowed to keep their status as individuals. That no matter what truths they value and hold to, they are entitled to pursue them as long as they don't violate the laws of this land. The only time and the only thing that 'every' individual is called upon to do, is to support the goal and ideas of the foundation that provides us ALL the ability to continue, unhampered, umimpeded, under the law and with the protections and benefit of the law in our pursuit of our individual goals and ideals.

In that vein people are justified in creating organizations, clubs and ventures persuant to thier desires. The Boy Scouts is one such club. But they ARE following an individual path and they are NOT upholding the principals of the foundation that provides all the same comforts. They discrimnate, and what's more they require a belief in something that this government has given the priviledge to bow out of. Again this is not the ideal that our foundation as country was created to reflect.

The Boy Scouts do good work, for many of those they admit to their club, but they have been founded on ideals that don't match those of this country and they deny their benefit to EVERY person in this country. This is not an ideal that is consistant with what Americans (as a society) should be viewing as the "American Ideal". To those individual it benefits it's a great organization, but they choose who receives such benefit.

""Attacking the BSA does not help your cause. When you are trying to change what is a foundation of tradition,""

Foundations based in tradition are difficult to change. That was recognized by those who created the Constitution. This is why we have the right to ament our laws, because time and change will affect them. Just because there is benefit to a tradition, doesn't make that tradition an American ideal, especially when it can not bend with the winds of change.

""My troop was sponsered by The Prespyterian church. They bought our tents, cooking equipment, payed for summer camp and various other costs affiliated with our activities.
Are you saying that deserves less tax deffered status than AID's Research? ""

No, what I'm saying is that the Boy Scouts can apply for to be a Religious affilations, and in that way they would get many tax breaks. With those tax breaks they would be able to afford what the governments are giving them free. But they don't seem to want to be a non-profit organization or religious one. Why not?
Not everyone got polio, Fanta, yet we poured a lot of billions into irradicating it. Disease affects EVERYONE, even those who don't get it.

""Isnt the gay Communitee being a little petty here.
Arent they just looking to make the most noise they can?""
It doesnt do your cause any good to attack the BSA!! ""

YES, NOISE and attention, is exactly the goal. Without the noise and attention we herald, we would never have gotten the rights we have, which is not very much. The only way to make people aware of our plight and to make them do something to correct it. Is to show them WHERE the problems exist. And if they can get the attention they need by exposing a source of the problem, they will go after it. FANTA - Think about it logically. This entire country is full of laws that discriminate against the GLBT. Those laws allow the continuance of bias and bigotry to prevail . What better way to get the attention of those people who don't give a dam n, than by holding a shining example in front of their eyes. This ‘club’ that has been held up to the world, does not share the same values as the foundation they stand on, that declares that none shall be hindered based on discrimination.

IT WORKS – look at the thread. You’re angry, many are angry but at least they’re not being complacent, at least people are sharing views and a light is beginning to shine.

Your are right about one thing. This was a big fight, because it hit a home run with a lot of people. Now every one of those people, who once had nothing to say, who once thought the GLBT were full of hot air, are now feeling the heat of the wind that blows.

You don’t like it because all you see is the good, because you are not affected by the bad. There has to be a point when enough people will recognize that discrimination exists and that people are suffering because of it.

Redy I respect you.

I really do but what I just read said to me that you think you are fighting to keep this country great and free, even if it means the dis assembly of every group or government organization that exist in America!

While I can think of a couple groups that I would welcome their destruction, for the most part your plan sounds destructive and it sounds like they head of the plan is a tad-bit spiteful.

You should just start a group of your own, and bar anyone you dont want from participation. Then through hard work and perseverance, create a list of success like the one above.

It would make you proud and get your cause all the attention, (the good kind) that it could hope for!

But this attacking blindly at any group that shines as bright as the BSA is crazy. You can not hope to gain any positive support for your cause like this.

What you truly fight isn't an organization, it biology!

Hows that Fanta you ask?

Do a little experiment, send to gay men into a room full of heterosexual men!!! Now have them lock down, tongue twisted, open mouthed kiss!

Watch the reaction of the hetero sexual men. I bet it will be a quick look of disgust and then looking away.

That feeling is not taught to us by our parents. It is not taught to us any more than the reaction that happens if a sexy woman in Hooters shorts walked in that same room!

Its Biology, the human reaction that drives procreation of the species! If you can knock that out of men then You'll really accomplish something.

I personally dont believe it can be done!!!

I agree with COALINA 04....sorry if I messed up your name. Why are gays trying to be part of a group whose value system is opposite of what they believe? What is up with this? That is like a Black Person, or Jew trying to join the KKK and then complaining of unfair treatement because they don't want them there. ....use some common sense....this is incredibly simple......Ok have your gay rights, but don't violate others beliefs and rights. =============

Who says that bsa has a value system that gay people do not have?? Why is it that all boys gay or otherwise don't have the same values?
What is it that bsa has that is strictly hetero in nature? Aside from...they say so? Why do some think that because one is gay that their values are less than anyone elses? That makes no sense.

==================================
What you truly fight isn't an organization, it biology!

Hows that Fanta you ask?

Do a little experiment, send to gay men into a room full of heterosexual men!!! Now have them lock down, tongue twisted, open mouthed kiss!

Watch the reaction of the hetero sexual men. I bet it will be a quick look of disgust and then looking away.

That feeling is not taught to us by our parents. It is not taught to us any more than the reaction that happens if a sexy woman in Hooters shorts walked in that same room!
=================================

Exactly....so why is it that some think that a gay student is going to be able (if he were to even try) to turn a heterosexual into a gay boy? It isn't going to happen. He either is or he isn't.

Kat

The whole point Fanta ia a gay man should be able to share his knowledge with young boys.He may have adopted a son and wants to participate with his son in BSA but because of peoples irrational fears,he can't share this exciting experience with his son.If someone passes a background check,he should be able to lead a troop.
I am attracted to men,doesn't mean I am attracted to any ole penis.you guys are ridiculous.
The bsa is not being attacked,their discrimination against a certain class of people is.At one time people felt black men were rapists and such.
The BSA and the rest need to grow up.

thats awful funny reading the scouts are being charged rent. Funny....the last boyscout meeting i attended was in the school lunchroom at my boys school. The PARENTS are HEAVILY INVOLVED so i am not quite believing this story from the press ffdude!

In spite of the insistence of most, this thread is all about the First Amendment of the Bill of Rights of YOUR Country's Constition.

It's not about the BS of A. Yet oyur constittion allows it to discriminate under a privilege of free speech and pree assembly (private domain)

It's not about 'spider's obesession over homosexuality, and confusion about homosexuals. Although your Constitution gives him the right to express his bigotry.

It's not about 'Big Phil's confused fixation of mixing homosexuals and the worst of sexual perverts and pedophiles. But your Constitution allows him the legitimate right to his personal views and convictions, and does not intefere in the manner that he transmits these views and convictions to his children.

It's not about Fanta having had a great experience with the BS of A, and wishing, rightly so, to defend their heritage past, and contribution to come. But your Constitution allows Fanta to speak out for that which he cares profoundly about.

It's not even about Redykeulous whom tirelessly speaks out, and fights for what she perceives as bigotted and prejudicial oppression around a specific group of people she belongs to. Yet your Constitution defends and stands for justice and equality for all human beings in front of the law. It will not rest 'til the job is done.

The Constitution, YOUR constitution is a very rich piece of human wisdom.

Along with its Bill of Rights and First Amendment, it is inexorably and unconditionally working towards its goal, which seeks to eliminate all forms of oppression, nothing less.

It started doing so by putting oppressive Religions in the private domain, and fully seperated them from the affairs of the state through the Establishment Clause.

So as not to oppress in turn, those whom believe in whatever it is they believe in, YOUR Constitution, through the First Amendment of its Bill of Rights allows for freedom of religious practice in the private domain (not public domain).

Along with 'freedm of speech' and 'freedom of assembly', also cornerstones of the First Amendment of YOUR Bill of Rights, that's what gives all the 'spider's of the world the 'private' right to spew out their bigotted and oppressive condemnation of a particular group of human beings, because his made believe God apparently told some other apparent make beleive humans to write in a make believe book, that somehow a particular group of human beings was not 'good', because of the way they were born.

The only important piece about this whole converstation, is not our personal opinions about how we wish to raise our kids, or the fact that we believe in the word of a 2000+ year book of fictitious stories.

The important part is that our personal opinions falling under free speech, and religious beliefs falling under 'freedom of religious practice', are both part of the private domain. And cannot changeone one iota of the fundamental components of YOUR CONSTITUTION. .

What is fundamental and unconditional about YOUR Constitution, and its Bill of Rights, is the UNALTERABLE and UNALIENATABLE PUBLIC DOMAIN FACT THAT HUMAN BEINGS UNDER ITS LAW, ARE ALL EQUAL, PERIOD.

The wisdom part, is that this Constitution realizes it takes human beings a long time to get rid of their 'flatearth' prejudicial concepts, and so it has built the private domain of individual rights, free speech, free assembly, and freedom of religious practice, and patiently awaits for the 'dinosaurs' to die.

I doubt very much that it will happen in the course of our life time 'redy', but as long as YOUR Constitution, and the Contitutions of other FREE WORLD NATIONS fight for justice, rule of law, and equality in human rights, Human consciousness will raise to the wisdom of our shared Constitutions!!!

Trust it!!! And keep on fighting for it!!!

That was awesome Voile, thank you so much for that.
Kat

This is, and never was about the BSA and the first ammendment, this was about denying an outgroup a voice. It was about constructing scarecrows and using them to practice a lower form of narcissim thru the ventriloquism of bigotry.

Such crypto-bigotry has led to lives of worthy people being destroyed. See the life of one Alan Turing, a brilliant computer scientist who arguably helped hasten the end of WW II with his contribuitions cryptography. Yet, despite that, because he was a homosexual, all that meant nothing. He was arrested and forced to undergo hormone therapy with estrogen. When he grew breasts he became so despondent he committed suicide by taking cyanide.

Many in this thread have voiced their disgust. I'd like to voice mine for those of you who dehumanize people by demanding they wear a symbolic shroud so you don't have to look them in the eye when you prattle on and on at length about how righteous your hate for them is. All because you can't control your own little dirty minds- such as men who undress women with their eyes complaining that they feel gay men are doing the same thing to them.

If you find homosexual sex so disgusting, by all means have nothing to do with it. Stop imagining yourself in the starring roll of Martyr, as though you've been slain by the same scarecrow you construct for the convenience of your deceptions.

Sheesh, it's not rocket science. It comes from you, not them, and all because it's always All About You.



-Kerry O.