Abra, I really have to agree with you. There are many who were faithless, and then claim that they were given some undeniable proof. I often find that these are the most vehament advocates of the saying "the proof is all around you, open up your hear, read the Bible, ask God". But they seem to forget that they didn't get their faith in this manner.

So proof can only be an individual revelation, and as such should remain with the individual.

Wench;

On Abra's post that began thusly:
"The Bible is the only path to the mythological God of the Bible. There can be no doubt about it. That’s the way the story is written. However, the bottom line is that the God of the Bible is solely the invention of men."

I would say that I totally agree with the logical flow of what he said - with a slight exception. If it is as he said - a mythical invention of men - than do what he did. Read it, study it, and make the decision for yourself as to why it is mythical. However, merely taking his word for it without allowing yourself to experience it, is robbing yourself of the ability to intelligently reason it out with the intelligence that "god/God" gave you.

Sister Shaman wrote:
"Abra, this is actually something that I have been thinking about myself a lot lately. I can accept and believe it because it is HER spiritual truth and there is no reason for me not to believe her. You know I am a very "to each their own" type person"

Well, don't get me wrong. I'm not denying anyone's spiritual truth. I'm just saying that if god gives out free proofs I'm willing to wait for mine.

Then again, maybe god doesn't need to give me any proof because she knows that I already believe in her.

There wouldn’t be much sense in giving someone proof if they already believe would there?

Redy;

As to this...

"I would like an explanation from each of them, as to how, exactly Christains moved beyond Catholicism? Is that not evolution of the faith?"

Christians moved beyond Catholicism at the time of Martin Luther, because Catholicism had moved towards legalistic traditions, rather than using the bible as a basis for faith in God. Much like Judism had in the time of Jesus. However - this is not an example of an "evolution" of Christianity - for Catholicism remains - just as Christianity isn't an evolution of Judism.

Eljay wrote:
"I would say that I totally agree with the logical flow of what he said - with a slight exception. If it is as he said - a mythical invention of men - than do what he did. Read it, study it, and make the decision for yourself as to why it is mythical. However, merely taking his word for it without allowing yourself to experience it, is robbing yourself of the ability to intelligently reason it out with the intelligence that "god/God" gave you."

I'm in complete agreement with Eljay on this one.

No one should take my word for anything. They should come to their own conclusions.

I just post food for thought. Nothing more, nothing less.

That's correct Eljay.........abra said it not me.......

Sister.......once again I say to you......the churches are of man.....and yes I do believe some churches have taken the Bible and re-written to fit there needs.....and yes I think it's confusing to the masses....Here is what I always say to people when it comes to the churches......I don't care which church you belong to....If you believe that God is, was, and always will be....and Christ his only begotten son died on the cross so that we may have everlasting life.....the rest I don't care.

Now in other threads I have proven why some churches are false.......alot of the teachings are false, and alot of the so called prophets were fakes. Also that churches are for fellowship and being around people that share you beliefs....


My Faith comes directly from my God speaking to me and giving me gifts.....telling me exactly what he expects. I will do as he asks until he asks me to leave.....Just for me Sister......if your God spoke directly to you....then so be it.....But my Lord & Savior speaks of false prophets......false teachers.....and they are of satan.

God's commandments given to Moses on the mountain.

1 And God spoke all these words:

2 "I am the LORD your God, who brought you out of Egypt, out of the land of slavery.

3 "You shall have no other gods before [a] me.

4 "You shall not make for yourself an idol in the form of anything in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below. 5 You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children for the sin of the fathers to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me, 6 but showing love to a thousand {generations} of those who love me and keep my commandments.

7 "You shall not misuse the name of the LORD your God, for the LORD will not hold anyone guiltless who misuses his name.

I would really like some of you to read the above scripture and tell me what you think it means??.....Also remember that when Christ died and rose from the dead.......to then join his Father again at his right hand....Which then made the only way to the Father is through the son......no way to misinterpret any of it......at least not for me.


Sister wrote.....

I like the way Silver Ravenwolf describes the divine best. Forgive me for not directly quoting it, but I cannot find the book it is in. She sees the divine as a diamond with countless facets, each one a different face [or aspect], but all on and of the same, singular force. That is where pantheism comes into play for me- we are all a part of that diamond, all children of god- I could never understand why the Christian God sent us is "one and only son" to save us, when we were all born of god and his divine will.

Answer: It beautiful what is written.....and yes for me to look at myself as god in anyway, shape, or form is just not so. Because even when Jesus was sitting at the right hand of the father it was prophecy that he had to come live as a man....and die....and through his blood we get our salvation.

This was even in the Bible as prophecy long long before Jesus came.....Thats why I am always saying for you guys to pick up a bible....really study it....take it apart piece by piece......even for the math and science people it would blow you mind.....Maybe I will do a thread on some of this for people like Abra and maybe a few others.....

Feral wrote:
“This was even in the Bible as prophecy long long before Jesus came.....Thats why I am always saying for you guys to pick up a bible....really study it....take it apart piece by piece......even for the math and science people it would blow you mind.....Maybe I will do a thread on some of this for people like Abra and maybe a few others.....”

You are being extremely presumptuous to assume that other people haven’t already done this. I have studied the Bible in great detail and found it to be totally inconsistent and irrational.

What you see as “prophecy coming true”, I see as nothing more than one author taking off on a story that a previous author wrote. The so-called prophecies then are self-fulfilling by the very nature of how they are being written. Every author has the advantage of knowing what previous authors wrote!

I think one HUGE difference between us Feral is that when I read the Bible (or any book) I realize that I am reading words written by the AUTHOR! I think you simply get lost in the story and just accept that the stories must be true without considering the fact that someone is actually telling you these stories and MIGHT actually be making them up, either entirely, or by simply distorting and exaggerating actual events.

I posted the following in Manami’s thread on Evolution, but I think it’s fitting to post it here as well.

The following are excerpts from a book that was written taking a critical view of the story of Jesus. The author points out inconsistencies and downright lies that Jesus spoke. There are things that Jesus claimed that simply turned out not to be true!

The book is called “The Mistakes of Jesus” by William Floyd. Floyd actually uses the Bible to deny itself.

You can read the entire book online here:

http://www.infidels.org/library/historical/william_floyd/mistakes_of_jesus.html

Here are some excepts:

Excerpt 1:
“The original evidence for the virgin birth is found only in the gospels of Matthew and Luke, two unknown historians, and both these evangelists implicitly deny their own tale when they trace the descent of Jesus from David through Joseph.”

Here Floyd shows that the authors (Matthew and Luke) contradict themselves by first claiming that Jesus was born of a virgin, and then proclaiming Jesus inherited right to be the King of Israel by tracing the lineage of King David to Joseph. But they just got done saying that Joseph wasn’t Jesus’ father! They contradict their own story.

Excerpt 2:
"And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come ... Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled." [Matt. xxiv, 74-34; Luke xxi, 32.] "The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand." [Mark i, 15.] "So ye in like manner, when ye shall see these things come to pass, know that it is nigh, even at the doors. Verily I say unto you, that this generation shall not pass, till all these things be done." ["Mark xiii, 29-30.]”

Mark and Matthew both have Jesus declaring that the end of the world will occur before their generation has passed. But that never happened. Yet people are still waiting for it some 2000 years later. Obviously Jesus was wrong.

On Belief In Prayer:

There is also a small section on “BELIEF IN PRAYER” in which Floyd points out undeniable proof that Jesus lied. What Jesus claimed to be true is quite obviously not true. Pure and simple.

Excerpt 3:
“After enumerating the many hardships that must be endured by his followers, Jesus contradicted himself by saying, "For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light." [Matt xi, 30.]”

Jesus contradicting himself. His followers must endure heavy hardships, but his yoke is easy and his burden is light?

Other contradictions are also given in Floyd’s book.

I haven’t read the book in it’s entirety, and I’m not the least bit interested in discussing it. I’ve rejected the biblical picture of God as being completely contradictive and inconsistent from reading just the Old Testament alone. I personally have no need for any further evidence of its inconsistencies.

Feral, have you ever read Abra's posts regarding how he came to his own spirituality? Try reading and understanding what he posts and then maybe you could give advice he can actually use.

Eljay. I think we know each other well enough, so may I say,

Well, duh, ya think?

Its so great to see so many people with the same beliefs I hold..More times then not in a "religion" like wicca or paganism we are outcasts because we dont believe what people consider to be "the norm"..

I am a deist. I think any religion is based on gulliable people.

abra said:

You are being extremely presumptuous to assume that other people haven’t already done this. I have studied the Bible in great detail and found it to be totally inconsistent and irrational.

Well if you wish to call me presumptuous,then so be it. But I also feel that you are deceiving a lot of people into believing that you are a biblically knowledgeable when in fact from your answers you are not. Your a master at speaking rubbish without really any facts to back you up. It's you that have to prove that Christ, The Bible, and the prophecy were not exactly what they have always maintained to be for over 4,0000 years.

Abra said:

What you see as “prophecy coming true”, I see as nothing more than one author taking off on a story that a previous author wrote. The so-called prophecies then are self-fulfilling by the very nature of how they are being written. Every author has the advantage of knowing what previous authors wrote!

Answer: I have a book with 4000 years of prophecy to back me me up. And again mumble jumble what do you mean exactly by every author has the advantage of knowing what previous authors wrote.......Thats sounds like a bunch of double talk to me....which I find you amazing at.

Abra Wrote:

I think one HUGE difference between us Feral is that when I read the Bible (or any book) I realize that I am reading words written by the AUTHOR! I think you simply get lost in the story and just accept that the stories must be true without considering the fact that someone is actually telling you these stories and MIGHT actually be making them up, either entirely, or by simply distorting and exaggerating actual events.

Answer: I think the big difference between us has nothing to do with the Bible per say....or even scripture for that fact. I think our biggest difference is you will not open you mind to the possibility that the Bible is exactly what it claims to be for the plain fact of you being rebellious for what ever reason that only you know.

Abra Wrote:
I posted the following in Manami’s thread on Evolution, but I think it’s fitting to post it here as well.

Abra!!!!!!!
I am going to take piece by piece what you took for this book and dispel what is written.....by simple fact of how absurd it is.......Which by the way I read all of it....I did have a good laugh but most far fetched.

Abra wrote:
The following are excerpts from a book that was written taking a critical view of the story of Jesus. The author points out inconsistencies and downright lies that Jesus spoke. There are things that Jesus claimed that simply turned out not to be true!

The book is called “The Mistakes of Jesus” by William Floyd. Floyd actually uses the Bible to deny itself.

You can read the entire book online here:

Here are some excepts:

Excerpt 1:
“The original evidence for the virgin birth is found only in the gospels of Matthew and Luke, two unknown historians, and both these evangelists implicitly deny their own tale when they trace the descent of Jesus from David through Joseph.”

Answer:
First off where do you get unknown historian.....when in actuality he was a tax collector in Capernaum for the Roman Government. As a publican he was no doubt disliked by the Jewish Countrymen, When Jesus called him to dicipleship. When he quickly responded to Jesus meant that he had already been stirred by Jesus. As for the rest of the above rubbish.

Abra Wrote:
Here Floyd shows that the authors (Matthew and Luke) contradict themselves by first claiming that Jesus was born of a virgin, and then proclaiming Jesus inherited right to be the King of Israel by tracing the lineage of King David to Joseph. But they just got done saying that Joseph wasn’t Jesus’ father! They contradict their own story.

Answer: OMG this is what I mean by studying the Bible......First off there is no contradiction at all, Jusus was born of a virgin. And as far as the lineage this is it.....When they speak of Jesus being the son of David that is lineage only......traced all the way back in generations to Abraham, who bore Isaac, and Isaac, Jacob, and Jacob, judah, and his brothers. And to judah were born perez all the way down through generation after generation until we get to Jacob.....who was born Joseph the husband of Mary by whom was born Jesus............So again the above is not correct.

Abra Wrote:
Excerpt 2:
"And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come ... Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled." [Matt. xxiv, 74-34; Luke xxi, 32.] "The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand." [Mark i, 15.] "So ye in like manner, when ye shall see these things come to pass, know that it is nigh, even at the doors. Verily I say unto you, that this generation shall not pass, till all these things be done." ["Mark xiii, 29-30.]”

Answer: With all the above references, this comes down to Jesus giving his disciples teachings through the use of parables. Luke 21:32 "Truly I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all things take place". This simply means Jesus had prophecy that had to be fulfilled before his death......For example the healing, the making the blind to see, He even told the disciples that betrayed him that they would and how they would...all had to happen before he went to the cross to shed his blood. This has nothing to do with when Christ will come back....The second coming has NOT happen and WILL.
And since the 2nd coming has not happen I guess that blows that out the door as far as Jesus being wrong and Him not coming back.

mis-interpreted what was written. First of all I don't know exactly where you even got your scripture references because the only scripture reference with 74 is Matthew 26: 74 which refers to the three denials of peter with Christ.

Abra Wrote:
On Belief In Prayer:

There is also a small section on “BELIEF IN PRAYER” in which Floyd points out undeniable proof that Jesus lied. What Jesus claimed to be true is quite obviously not true. Pure and simple.

Answer: And what is that? You tell me what scripture shows Jesus to be a lier?????..and once again the way the above is said is just alot of here-say on what this guy and you believe.

Abra Said:

Excerpt 3:
“After enumerating the many hardships that must be endured by his followers, Jesus contradicted himself by saying, "For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light." [Matt xi, 30.]”

Answer: You have to take the whole thing in context.....Abra you can't just take that one lil piece of the picture and claim contradiction.

Mathew 11: 25-30
First off thhis is the invitation to Come to Jeusus.

At that time Jesus Answered and said, "I praise thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that Thou didst hide these things from the wise and intelligent and didst reveal them to babaes.

"Yes Father, for thus it well pleasing t0 Thy Sight. "All things have been handed over to Me by My Father , and no one knows the Son, except the Father, nor does anyone know the Father, except the Son, and anyone Whom the son will to reveal Him.

"Come to Me, all who are weary and heavy-laden,'ti b to whom the Son wills to res rGuAll

Allghtthus is wa Yessellethou H sesc
-252 of tct


Jesus contradicting himself. His followers must endure heavy hardships, but his yoke is easy and his burden is light?

Other contradictions are also given in Floyd’s book.

I haven’t read the book in it’s entirety, and I’m not the least bit interested in discussing it. I’ve rejected the biblical picture of God as being completely contradictive and inconsistent from reading just the Old Testament alone. I personally have no need for any further evidence of its inconsistencies.

Differentkindofwench
128083_9943_thumb
Joined Sat 04/07/07
Posts: 1449

Sat 11/03/07 07:07 AM
Feral, have you ever read Abra's posts regarding how he came to his own spirituality? Try reading and understanding what he posts and then maybe you could give advice he can actually use.

Differentkindofwench
128083_9943_thumb
Joined Sat 04/07/07
Posts: 1449

Sat 11/03/07 07:28 AM
Eljay. I think we know each other well enough, so may I say,

Well, duh, ya think?

missy51970
307042_6054_thumb
Joined Fri 11/02/07
Posts: 54

Sat 11/03/07 08:10 AM
Its so great to see so many people with the same beliefs I hold..More times then not in a "religion" like wicca or paganism we are outcasts because we dont believe what people consider to be "the norm"..


andrewzooms
296850_8050_thumb
Joined Fri 10/26/07
Posts: 181

Sat 11/03/07 08:37 AM
I am a deist. I think any religion is based on gulliabl

abra said:

You are being extremely presumptuous to assume that other people haven’t already done this. I have studied the Bible in great detail and found it to be totally inconsistent and irrational.

Answer:
Well if you wish to call me presumptuous,then so be it. But I also feel that you are deceiving a lot of people into believing that you are a biblically knowledgeable when in fact from your answers you are not. Your a master at speaking rubbish without really any facts to back you up. It's you that have to prove that Christ, The Bible, and the prophecy were not exactly what they have always maintained to be for over 4,0000 years.

Abra said:

What you see as “prophecy coming true”, I see as nothing more than one author taking off on a story that a previous author wrote. The so-called prophecies then are self-fulfilling by the very nature of how they are being written. Every author has the advantage of knowing what previous authors wrote!

Answer: I have a book with 4000 years of prophecy to back me me up. And again mumble jumble what do you mean exactly by every author has the advantage of knowing what previous authors wrote.......Thats sounds like a bunch of double talk to me....which I find you amazing at.

Abra Wrote:

I think one HUGE difference between us Feral is that when I read the Bible (or any book) I realize that I am reading words written by the AUTHOR! I think you simply get lost in the story and just accept that the stories must be true without considering the fact that someone is actually telling you these stories and MIGHT actually be making them up, either entirely, or by simply distorting and exaggerating actual events.

Answer: I think the big difference between us has nothing to do with the Bible per say....or even scripture for that fact. I think our biggest difference is you will not open you mind to the possibility that the Bible is exactly what it claims to be for the plain fact of you being rebellious for what ever reason that only you know.

Abra Wrote:
I posted the following in Manami’s thread on Evolution, but I think it’s fitting to post it here as well.

Abra!!!!!!!
I am going to take piece by piece what you took for this book and dispel what is written.....by simple fact of how absurd it is.......Which by the way I read all of it....I did have a good laugh but most far fetched.

Abra wrote:
The following are excerpts from a book that was written taking a critical view of the story of Jesus. The author points out inconsistencies and downright lies that Jesus spoke. There are things that Jesus claimed that simply turned out not to be true!

The book is called “The Mistakes of Jesus” by William Floyd. Floyd actually uses the Bible to deny itself.

You can read the entire book online here:

Here are some excepts:

Excerpt 1:
“The original evidence for the virgin birth is found only in the gospels of Matthew and Luke, two unknown historians, and both these evangelists implicitly deny their own tale when they trace the descent of Jesus from David through Joseph.”

Answer:
First off where do you get unknown historian.....when in actuality he was a tax collector in Capernaum for the Roman Government. As a publican he was no doubt disliked by the Jewish Countrymen, When Jesus called him to dicipleship. When he quickly responded to Jesus meant that he had already been stirred by Jesus. As for the rest of the above rubbish.

Abra Wrote:
Here Floyd shows that the authors (Matthew and Luke) contradict themselves by first claiming that Jesus was born of a virgin, and then proclaiming Jesus inherited right to be the King of Israel by tracing the lineage of King David to Joseph. But they just got done saying that Joseph wasn’t Jesus’ father! They contradict their own story.

Answer: OMG this is what I mean by studying the Bible......First off there is no contradiction at all, Jusus was born of a virgin. And as far as the lineage this is it.....When they speak of Jesus being the son of David that is lineage only......traced all the way back in generations to Abraham, who bore Isaac, and Isaac, Jacob, and Jacob, judah, and his brothers. And to judah were born perez all the way down through generation after generation until we get to Jacob.....who was born Joseph the husband of Mary by whom was born Jesus............So again the above is not correct.

Abra Wrote:
Excerpt 2:
"And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come ... Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled." [Matt. xxiv, 74-34; Luke xxi, 32.] "The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand." [Mark i, 15.] "So ye in like manner, when ye shall see these things come to pass, know that it is nigh, even at the doors. Verily I say unto you, that this generation shall not pass, till all these things be done." ["Mark xiii, 29-30.]”

Answer: With all the above references, this comes down to Jesus giving his disciples teachings through the use of parables. Luke 21:32 "Truly I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all things take place". This simply means Jesus had prophecy that had to be fulfilled before his death......For example the healing, the making the blind to see, He even told the disciples that they would betray him before it happen. All had to happen before he went to the cross to shed his blood. This has nothing to do with when Christ will come back....The second coming has NOT happen. And since the 2nd coming has not happen I guess that blows that out the door as far as Jesus being wrong and Him not coming back.

mis-interpreted what was written. First of all I don't know exactly where you even got your scripture references because the only scripture reference with 74 is Matthew 26: 74 which refers to the three denials of peter with Christ.

Abra Wrote:
On Belief In Prayer:

There is also a small section on “BELIEF IN PRAYER” in which Floyd points out undeniable proof that Jesus lied. What Jesus claimed to be true is quite obviously not true. Pure and simple.

Answer: And what is that? You tell me what scripture shows Jesus to be a lier?????..and once again the way the above is said is just alot of here-say on what this guy and you believe.

Abra Said:

Excerpt 3:
“After enumerating the many hardships that must be endured by his followers, Jesus contradicted himself by saying, "For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light." [Matt xi, 30.]”

Answer: You have to take the whole thing in context.....Abra you can't just take that one lil piece of the picture and claim contradiction.

Mathew 11: 25-30
First off this is the invitation to Come to Jeusus.

At that time Jesus Answered and said, "I praise thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that Thou didst hide these things from the wise and intelligent and didst reveal them to babaes.

"Yes Father, for thus it well pleasing to Thy Sight. "All things have been handed over to Me by My Father , and no one knows the Son, except the Father, nor does anyone know the Father, except the Son, and anyone Whom the son will to reveal Him.

"Come to Me, all who are weary and heavy-laden, and I will give you rest. Take my Yoke upon you (meaning give it all to Him Jesus) and learn from Me, for I am gentle and humble in your heart; and YOU SHALL FIND REST FOR YOUR SOULS. For "My yoke is easy, and My Load is Light.....This simply means that whatever is heavy on you is nothing for Christ.....And no matter how heavy or not worthy you feel it will be light to him.

So once again you have misunderstood what was said.

I have read the book in it's entirety and once again just find it man's way of being rebellious. And also believe me nothing we have discussed has not been discussed throughout the history of the world. As History repeats itself so does man's rebellion.


WENCH: Yes I have read it......and everybody goes through trials and tribulations and believe me I have seen my fair share.....But I choose to give it to the Lord which make the burden on me...much lighter and the burden to Christ light.

Sorry for the double post........2nd one

Feral wrote:
“And again mumble jumble what do you mean exactly by every author has the advantage of knowing what previous authors wrote.......Thats sounds like a bunch of double talk to me....which I find you amazing at.”

Where’s the double-talk? The Bible is not a single ‘book’ that was published by a single publisher and written by a single author. It’s a collection of many different stories that were written by different authors throughout history. Each one having obviously read the stories of the others. This is one thing that is perfectly clear. In fact, the cannon of stories that we now call “The Bible” were personally selected by King James. Some historians believe that he may have also been selective about accepting specific parts within stories. And it’s certainly plausible that he may have even edited parts to make them more compatible with other parts. This may have even been done with ‘innocence’ in the sense that he just felt he was helping to make the stories more coherent which is what he believe them to be.

Feral wrote:
“You tell me what scripture shows Jesus to be a lier?????..and once again the way the above is said is just alot of here-say on what this guy and you believe.”

Floyd wrote:
“Modern religious people may still consistently believe in prayer as a form of inward aspiration, but it is difficult to take literally the assurance given by Jesus of practical accomplishments by means of prayer in his name.

Jesus did not confine himself to promising spiritual results from prayer, but distinctly gave it to be understood that the physical world would respond to petitions to Jehovah. "Again I say unto you, That if two of you shall agree on earth as touching any thing that they shall ask, it shall be done for them of my Father which is in heaven." [Matt. xviii, 19.] "If ye have faith, and doubt not, ye shall not only do this which is done to the fig tree, but also if ye shall say unto this mountain, Be thou removed, and be thou cast into the sea; it shall be done. And all things whatsoever ye shall ask in prayer, believing, ye shall receive." [Matt. xxi, 21-22.] "What things soever ye desire, when ye pray, believe that ye receive them, and ye shall have them." [Mark xi, 24.] "If ye have faith as a grain of mustard seed, ye shall say unto this mountain, Remove hence to yonder place; and it shall remove: and nothing shall be impossible unto you." [Matt. xvii, 20.]

These promises have not been fulfilled. Bishops, priests and deacons with strong faith have been unable to obtain, by means of the most sincere prayer, results similar to those indicated, They have followed Jesus in vain. No man living dare put his faith to the test by a public demonstration of prayer for physical changes. Christian prayers for rain are conventional, not being offered with confidence that rain will follow.

Jesus has misled us.”

I don’t see how you can argue with Floyd on this point. It’s clearly the truth. What Jesus proclaimed to be truth has not come to pass.

Why is this being debated in a Paganism thread?

Can there be no respect for other beliefs, anywhere in these boards?


If the Bible gives comfort and one wants to believe it, and carry it as their truth, so be it, the Christian coffee house is that way ---------------------------------------------------------->

If one is aetheist, pantheist, or any other non Christian belief structure, so be it.

This is NOT all about my belief is better than your belief, this is a thread for Pagans.

Try and be respectful.

It wasn't an intentional thread jack, Jess, honest. I was actually thrilled that Spider and I were managing to remain civil to each other. I'm trying to stay out of the Christian threads and this one just sort of evolved.

Wench... I am one of the worst thread jackers around, so I really can't point fingers...

I just get a little sad, when it seems the same debaters in every thread, no matter what the origins, debate fiercely their personal beliefs.

It's why I tend to stay away from here as well, I have not learnt anything new, in so long, other than there has become little tolerance for the differences.

I have never found you disrespectful, Wench, irreverant maybe, and even that's a bit of a stretch..

Okay, Tarot question y'all.

The fool card - If I basically end up looking like a fool or an idiot a lot of the times in forums because I have a question and how I phrase that question; but my idiocy leads to great information coming from others would that make the fool card a wonderful representation of someone like me?

<----------------Happy Idiot.

So as to the fool card, yes.

The jester is one of the great representations of one who asks, in innocence, and a desire to know, and often gets mocked for their apparent silliness,...and yet may educate others by their very actions.

Well, that's my excuse, and I'm sticking to it.