Believe as you will, Feral.

Wench wrote:

"I believe the God we are talking about gave his children the ability to reason and grow, so yes I do believe he would let misconceptions be written."

So that leads to the next question. Is the God that you understand omniscient and omnipresent? If so - why would he inspire men who He KNEW would get it wrong? And if He somehow inspired men to get it right - and over time, it got changed, WHY did he allow that to happen? And where is the evidence of the manuscripts that show where the changes occured? Since the discovery of the Dead Sea Scrolls, it has been demonstrated that there aren't any discrepancies. Now, I'm not refering to the Joseph Smiths, or the Mary Baker Eddy's of today, who have published bibles with changes in them - which they refer to as "bibles" without claiming they actually are. The reference is to ancient manuscripts that have been discovered. I just want to understand the reasoning behind an omniscient and omnipresent God not being able to predict, or control his "word" being altered.

and you know I haven't had proof lizard.......I have totally received proof of His being.......and far to many ppl just want to assume that people have not gotten ultimate proof of his being.......Maybe you should peek at the miracles thread......

And when I have more time....I will write what The Lord & Savior showed me personally....Im not who I am because my parents before me were......I am who I am for what The Lord has shown me......For what he personally has done for me.....and yes their is even living proof showing me signs....and that is where I am coming from..........

Lizardking;

What constitutes "no proof"? Does this mean that the evidences have to pass your criteria before it becomes evidence? That when you say "God - if you exist turn the one dollar bills in my pocket into one hundreds", and they don't - that he's failed the proof test? What "proof" would satisfy you? Do you believe in evolution? If so - explain to me what proof you used to establish that your belief is not in a fairytale.

The Bible must be taken as a whole. I find it telling that those who claim to have read the Bible multiple times have questions which could be answered by a first year theology student. Theodice is easily answered, but Richard Dawkins presents it like it's a silver bullet and Christianity is a werewolf. Questions like "Where did Cain's wife come from" are easily answered by Christianity and the answer is scientific. So many simple questions like this are presented as impossible to answer, but the answer is widely known. I think that the anger, mistrust and the assumption that the Bible is "just a book written by men" is entirely the result of a poor understanding of the Bible. I have yet to see a single non-Christian, even those who claim to have been Christians for years, offer the true ideas that are present in the Bible. They fall for the same misconceptions and misundersandings that a life long atheist falls for.

I know you guys, so here are answers the some of the posts you will make...

Yes, there are many denominations. Most of the disagreements are Calvinist vs Armenism, sprinkle vs dunk and other issues like that. There is a very large pool of thought that comprises Christianity and there are subtle differences about doctrine. If you were to take a lake and put an invisible line over the surface, so that only waves stuck up, everything under the line would be what Christians all agree on and everything above the line would be doctrinal differences.

I don't care how many times you have read the Bible, if simple things still stump you, then you haven't read it enough. Or maybe you need to sit down and read some apologetics. There are some really great minds in Christendom, who can greatly improve your understanding of the Bible.

Yes, I haven't been a Christian for long and I don't go to Chruch. Saying that I don't speak for Christianity is absolutely true. But how many Christians do you see disagreeing with what I have said? The truth of the matter is that I stay in the main vein of Christianity, I speak about the basis of Christianity and try to avoid any discussion of the various doctrine on which denominations differ. I have studied apologetics and the Bible enough to know what I am talking about very well.

God bless.

Quite frankly, eljay, everything has a form of evolution to it. You yourself describe those changes as being answered covenants. Constantine saw an interesting way to control the masses and ran like crazy with it, historically speaking. Why is it so hard to believe that one God could have interacted with more than one region of people. You all can believe that we're all God's children, but you can't allow for more than one path.

Actually, the topic of more than one path to God is another discussion - I was just curious about the statement that the bible is "written by men, changable, and unreliable" (a paraphrased overview) whch seems to be inconsistant with the idea of an Omnipresent, omnicient God - which no one seems to disagree with (those who claim belief in a/the god/God)

So - this begs the question "If god/God does exist - which one is the right one?" For the Christian God is certainly inconsistant with the god of Pantheism, which is in turn inconsistant with the god of Islam. Is there really a god for everyone - fitting whatever definition the individual decides to come up with? Or is it like the analogy of the group of blind men touching the different parts of an elephant, thinking they understand the whole animal?

I believe its more the analogy of the elephant. My biggest and greatest reasoning Eljay, that one path cannot be the only way, it would condemn some beautiful shining lights

Wench,

The Bible is the only path to the mythological God of the Bible. There can be no doubt about it. That’s the way the story is written. However, the bottom line is that the God of the Bible is solely the invention of men.

Does this mean that Christians are missing out on god?

Of course not!

Unlike the mythological story in the Bible, the REAL god doesn’t care what people believe. And therefore Christians who believe in the stories of the Bible are doing just fine. There’s no harm in believing in the Bible (unless a person uses it as a weapon to try to control or pass judgments on other people). However, according to the stories in the Bible that’s a no-no. So people who are doing that are hypocrite jerks anyway and not really Christians even if they do insist on abusing that title.

The bottom line is that god doesn’t care how you think of her. If you want to believe that she’s a grouchy old judgmental man who sits in a throne and rules over his heavenly kingdom with an iron-clad fist, then go right ahead and believe it. God doesn’t care. She’ll be just as much a part of your life no matter how you believe. Her love really is unconditional.

So Wench, you need to realize that even though the Christians think that their picture of God is the only picture, that doesn’t make it so. It’s merely one of many. It’s a valid “picture” even if it isn’t true. God doesn’t care how people think of her. That totally irrelevant to god.

So don’t let the Christians get you down Wench. It’s just what they believe, it doesn’t make it so.

I thought you were going to leave religion threads abra......

thank you wench I will do just that.

Abra, thank-you.

Why would Abra stop posting in religion??

Abra has been here a long time and posts religiously....

what i meant is that the trio of western religions, to those not involved in them, seem to want to have their cake and eat it too

Feral, if the Bible is the one, true and correct way, why are there so very many churches that follow it so many different ways? (Spider, I know you commented on this and I do understand your analogy).

Also, you have had ultimate proof from God of his existence, which I can fully accept and believe. But others from other faiths have had ultimate proof- have been embraced and humbled by the incomprehensible force that is the divine- but know that divine by a different name and face. How are they wrong?

"Thou shalt have no other gods before me." - But not after? So one supreme God with others under him? Sounds a lot like Wench's idea to me

I like the way Silver Ravenwolf describes the divine best. Forgive me for not directly quoting it, but I cannot find the book it is in. She sees the divine as a diamond with countless facets, each one a different face [or aspect], but all on and of the same, singular force. That is where pantheism comes into play for me- we are all a part of that diamond, all children of god- I could never understand why the Christian God sent us is "one and only son" to save us, when we were all born of god and his divine will.

I have to disagree with LizardKing, I absolutely see how LadyV can be the pagan witch Christian she cliams to be. Actually I felt her descriptions somewhat fluid with the Christainity as I preceive it.

Thanks LadyV for the explanations.

As far as this whole, non changing, static, Biblical idea is concerned. I find it absolutley amazing that so many Christians fail to see the evolution of their own faith.

I would like an explanation from each of them, as to how, exactly Christains moved beyond Catholicism? Is that not evolution of the faith?

oddly i dont c protestant christianity and its variations as being more progressive today than the catholic church, although im sure that in the 1600s it was

Sister Shaman wrote:
“Also, you have had ultimate proof from God of his existence, which I can fully accept and believe.”

Doesn’t this fly in the face of the idea that men are supposed to have faith?

Every time I ask why God didn’t do something to prove unequivocally that the writings were from God people always say that God demands that we have faith and if he proved things to us then we wouldn’t need to have faith. Yet I do hear a lot of people claiming that God gave them proof.

Well, if God’s handing out free proofs, I’ll just wait until I receive mine then. After all, why should I be expected to have mere faith while other people are being handed outright proofs? That wouldn’t be fair.

Abra, this is actually something that I have been thinking about myself a lot lately. I can accept and believe it because it is HER spiritual truth and there is no reason for me not to believe her. You know I am a very "to each their own" type person."

To me, proof of the higher power, the divine energy than infuses me, is in the sunrise. It is in the wind, in the rain, and in the love my husband bathes me in. God is a part of all the things in my life, and the fact that I am alive and experiencing it makes real- the good and the bad.

I've been writing a lot lately, angsty and depressed. Basically talking to God, talking about proof, about knowing, and being lost and being found. I won't divulge further here...

Anoasis wrote;

"Why would Abra stop posting in religion??

Abra has been here a long time and posts religiously...."

He stated on another thread that he's going away for a while over the holidays, and will not be posting.