yes, I've seen so many relationships like this too.. and sometimes the women can be so overbearing and selfish, constantly demanding their own way without regard for their man's feelings, or his self respect and pride... hence he stays in a constant state of misery, just to appease his woman... to keep peace in the home... when all he's doing is giving up his authority to be ruled by his wife... I find this to be emasculating to a man... when it's the woman's place to walk beside him, not in front of him... my parents were like your parents, tawt, and my father couldn't handle all the crap when mom gave nothing back... Don't get me wrong, I'm not disrespecting the memory of my parents by stating the facts... but it's precisely due to my witnessing how my father, as a loving man, and responsible head of our house lived his life in rejection and under constant stress when nothing he did would satisfy her, no matter how much he sacrificed, as soon as she got her way in one thing, it was on to the next thing... and I witnessed my father's happiness being drained from his soul and I was grateful when they divorced for the last time, and he moved on and married again, he finally found contentment with another woman. Their relationship is why I refuse to be the kind of woman that strangles or deprives my man of his God given right to exercise his authority over me and our home, so long as he does so with love and respect in his heart and his actions towards me.. I don't want to be equal to a man in all things, that's absurd, because I am a woman... and I certainly don't want a man that would want me to rule him, because then I would view that as a severe weakness in his character, and I would not respect him..

hi newbie chick... please let me put your mind at ease by saying that this post is not about me or my life issues... and also... just because two people break up and move on, doesn't mean it was due to their not getting along... they could have went off to college, or they could have joined the service, and it's only later in life they reunite, most of the time after their first spouses have died or they are divorced... they rekindle their first love and live the remainder of their lives together.. I know so many couples like this... and yet automatically when we talk about breaking up we assume the worst, and that getting back together is unheard of because it didn't work the first time... this lack of faith in second chances is so sad...

AthenaRose..I read your earlier post about your parents. My husband's first wife could be demanding and on the "materialistic" side..It sounds like she could be a "nit-picker" and demeaning at times too..She wasn't always the "best match" for my husband because she was more of a traditional woman and my husband was more androgynous...Their differences didn't show-up until later on when he wanted to cook more often and enter her so-called "turf" and "territory" in the home...She didn't want to "share" or do any "cross-overs." And this is when the "nit-picking" started-up...She didn't want any changes to the "existing order." And this led to conflicts.

Little more...I think some women may copy the behavior of their mothers when it comes to "nit-picking" and never being "satisfied."...If a daughter takes the opposite approach and professes to be happy with her husband this could be taken as a sign of "disloyalty" to the mother...I think my Mom struggled with some of this...My Grandma was a "never satisfied" kind of woman due to "old issues" with her dad and mom from the past...She had a grudge against "all men" including her husband...It made it hard for my Mom to "appear" happy with my Dad because my Grandma expected her daughters to follow in her footsteps. (To prove their love and loyalty to her.)...Anyway I know it was a struggle for my Mom at times. She ran into "divided loyalties."

I had changed and so did she. Then she met a twisted Prince Charming who wasn't me. He was so unreal. He knew all the right words to say but the trouble was he said them to every woman he met. He was a good friend to me until he started flirting with my wife. He would flirt with the woman he was with,; The woman the next table to him and the waitress at the same time. I guess one thing about him was that he wasn't timid. In trying to save the marriage I asked my wife, "Can't you see how fake he is?" She couldn't see it. She loved being treated like a queen and he was good at that. My male friends tried to warn me of that because he did the same thing with their wives. He didn't succeed with some of my friends' wives but one he did. But even they got back together through successful communication.

yes, how keenly do I know about divided loyalties in the home... when a woman forces her children to choose sides over their mother and father... we weren't allowed to love both... we had to choose... and I chose my father... so my mother was against me... telling me how much she hated me and wished I'd never been born... then when they got their second and final divorce she divorced me too, giving my custody to my father... my mother and I were estranged for more than 25 years of my life... only reuniting three years before her death to cancer last January... my parents dysfunctional marriage made a very huge impact on my life... and I can see so many traits you talk about in the women in your family, as in my mother and her mother... I wonder if their attitudes were based more around the generation they were born and raised in, and the various roles men and women played back then, when women had to rely on their husbands for everything, because they didn't work outside the home yet, and when women began rebelling against their husbands and fathers demanding equal rights... our culture as we knew it changed to where the lines between the sexes blurred, and I wear my rose colored glasses in order to accept the lasting confusion that has been left in the wake of the woman's movement...

You may like this book, AthenaRose2.

The 12 Steps For Adult Children Of Alcoholic And Other Dysfunctional Families. It is put out by Recovery Publications. It is an awesome book.

http://www.adultchildren.org/

thank you for this self-help information, trout... I'm on the website now and can't locate the book you mention.. and when I searched for meetings in my area, there are none... I'll look it up through the publishing company...

If an ex is still being put in the maybe column they were never an ex.

Yuk, need to wash after that one.

Hmmm, I have a short answer and a very long one....

I can see the wisdom in your logic, mg... thank you for sharing...

Well, I'm not really saying that I think that my parents have a bad marriage. The thing is, my mother is a very caring person that tends to put other people first, or at least she tries to help other people with their problems and she tries to put her christian faith into practice, while my father tends to be a bit selfish and insensitive. My mother is the organiser in the family and although she can be a bit too much sometimes it's always because she cares. She wants what's best for her children and she gets actively involved, while my father is the type that sweeps problems under the carpet or ignores them. I mean, it's not that she doesn't respect and love my father and they do have discussions and arguments even.

When my brother and I were children we had to put up with a lot of this "wait until your father gets home" stuff, so she knew that when she couldn't control us or if we were giving her cheek she could threaten us with an angry father authority figure that was going to shout at us and possibly deal out physical punishments.

The putting up with women's ways for the sake of having a quiet life and keeping them happy is fairly normal I think and it's something that a lot of men laugh about. They will just tell you that, "That's just women mate and you are better off being single". Of course, I've known couples where the woman does "wear the trousers" to the extent that the man has to ask her for pocket money or permission to do certain things and I do think that can be a bit pathetic.

Personally, I will put up with quite a lot from women to keep them happy and have a quiet life but I'm not going to be a total doormat. I accept that I'm not really used to having a woman around and when I do get involved with one they are going to nag me a bit and try to get me to change my ways. I think that I would rather have a woman that says how she feels about things and tells me what she wants than someone that expects me to be a mindreader . I like to think that I'm a reasonable person and although I've gone along with things in the past that I didn't think were entirely reasonable, I won't really put up with it if I think that they are being totally unreasonable.

I suppose that maybe examples might give you an idea about what I mean. My ex didn't want me bringing my dog along on any sort of date and before I met her I took him everywhere with me and he was my constant companion. One day she said that she wanted to go out for the day with me to this place where there was a beach and I wanted to bring the dog along. She got really angry and stormed out of my house saying that she didn't feel like it anymore and I could stay at home with my dog. I went after her saying that I still wanted to go out with her and if she really didn't want the dog with us I would leave him at home. That wasn't good enough for her of course because obviously I didn't want to do what she wanted to do and I was just saying that I did to keep her happy. I never mentioned taking the dog with us again and just accepted that there was going to be an argument if I did and we wouldn't have a nice day together. Yeah, I thought she was being a bit unreasonable but it wasn't going to kill me to leave the dog at home when I went out with her and he would be alright.

I think that I try to be "the voice of reason" and that's a role that I can handle. If a girlfriend comes to me telling me what she expects from me I try to see it from her point of view and I won't just dig my heels in because I don't want a woman telling me what to do. I'll try to point out where I think that a woman is being unreasonable or too demanding or controlling and I will stand up to them when I feel that I have to. I've just never really found that trying to tell women what to do or giving them orders works at all and I just prefer to say what I am and am not happy with.

Thanks for sharing...This is why I'm uncomfortable around men who do a lot of flirting...I don't fool myself into thinking it's just "about me." I know they have a tendency to "turn on the charm" with nearly every woman they encounter...It's all part of their personna and identity...I prefer to be around modest and humble "straight talking" kind of men...But this is just me. I enjoy playing...Everything doesn't has to be super-serious all the time. But I get "spooked" if a man flirts with me excessively right off the bat. And it's obvious (to me) that we really don't have much in common...Sorry about what happened with your ex.

Sorry that you had to choose between your Mom and Dad. And sorry your Mom "turned" on you and divorced you too. What was it like when you reunited later in life?...My Mom and Dad were successful when it came to creating an equal marriage way back in the 40's and 50's. (Before the woman's revolution movement.)...It's what they both wanted. Guess they were both on the androgynous side too.

My ex is a hansome man and liked to spend money on his girlfriends he is married again for the 4th time. He is a interesting man but he is not a good Husband. Good Husbands are really hard to find. Some men are just made to be single because Marriage takes work. He was a charmer and loved the ladies attention. He was also abusive in areas after marring.

My ex husband doesn't live in my City and that is good. I wouldn't want to run into him while I was out to dinner or movies with other friends. That would be a bit uncomfortable, not that I hate him or anything though.

I appreciate your kind words concerning my mother's ill treatment of me, but she really did me a favor, by teaching me to stand alone, on my own, and to be a survivor who created a life that I am now secure with. My mother was in ill health by the time we reunited, and she depended on me to be there for her in many ways... at first I still had my walls of caution firmly in place, until she called me one day and apologized to me for how our relationship had been as dysfunctional as hers with her mother. She explained that she had treated me the same way her mother treated her, and that she very much regretted bringing the amount of pain into my life that resulted from her actions. It was very disturbing to hear my mother humble herself to seek my forgiveness, so under those circumstances, I immediately let my walls down and accepted her back into my life. The last years of her life we spent having long talks and cutting up, laughing... my mom had a wicked sense of humor and taught me to laugh at life and my foibles... so, it was nice to have healed our relationship, with my even going out to CO to help her in the last few months of her life. And because of our reconciliation and her repentance, her death has been easier for me to handle. Though it seems so unfair that finally, now that we had mended our hearts she was taken so quickly from me... But, I also believe she knew she was seriously ill when she had my baby sister go online and find me for her... mom was really religious in her own way, and she needed to make her life and heart right before she passed on...

AthenaRose...I'm glad you and your Mom were able to "heal" together and talk and even laugh together before she passed away...Sorry you didn't have more time together...My Grandma never "healed." It was sad! She became really bitter and angry at the end and negative...There was no way to "reach" her because she wanted to stay mad and full of self-pity and self-righteous etc...It was hard to go and visit her. She used to say awful things about my Dad and my Mom too and all of us...She died in a "bitter state." It was sad...I made a vow early in life not to end-up like my Grandma...I didn't have good luck with Grandmas...My Dad's Mom lived in the Mid-West and acted like I didn't exist. I never received any birthday cards from her or anything at all...I just didn't exist to her...She was cold to me the few times I saw her...I know she was mad at my Dad for moving away and settling in CA. She didn't like my Mom either...No wonder my Mom and Dad tried to pull together as best friends and equals and create a happy family for themselves and me...They were persecuted from many different sides!

Good your ex doesn't live close to you today...Sorry that things didn't work out between you.

What you say.. "The putting up with women's ways for the sake of having a quiet life and keeping them happy is fairly normal I think"... you see this is why I choose not to be an average woman... whose man has to put up with me in order for there to be peace in our home... I know you don't mean this the way it comes across, but it's the truth... ever since the women's movement has made us more powerful in many ways, a lot of women are using this position as a means to be aggressive, demanding, manipulative... making men's lives hell... and in order to get back at us for being so obstinate with them, they too get rebellious and refuse to care for us the way they used too... I mean, just look at the marriage crisis, and all of us here on Mingle that are single... when we could be really meeting people to share our lives with, except for our various reasons why we say, no, I'm just here for the forums... to make friends... because we understand the unspoken reality we all live with... the sexes aren't happy with the way we treat each other... and we're all holding out for that special person, the one we all dream of, but who doesn't really exist, and when we do find someone we feel comfortable enough to share our lives with, after the newness of the infatuation wears off in marriages and less committed relationships we just leave behind who we're with and move on to the next person... and then you say... "Personally, I will put up with quite a lot from women to keep them happy and have a quiet life but I'm not going to be a total doormat." The fact that women make you and other men feel this way, like they can just walk all over you... there's something that has seriously gone awry in our society when men feel like they are being taken advantage of, and women have usurped their authority to do this to them... so both sexes hide behind walls, and nothing ever changes for the better.

being persecuted from many different sides... it's amazing how many similarities there are in our family stories... my mom's people were French and upper middle class... and while her parents always remembered all four of us grandchildren for every holiday and birthday they would send money, and we could rely on their help long distance, we weren't allowed to get to know her brothers who went to Yale and Harvard... and we didn't get to see our grandparents, but could talk to Grandfather on the phone... grandmother didn't speak good English, or we would have talked to her too... but.. mom's family acted like dad's family, who being middle class didn't rank high enough, weren't good enough for them... needless to say, with all this division just inside our own families, it was enough to make us younger generation rebel and say WTF is going on with you people... we're FAMILY!!!

Some of the things I read; just make me shake my head. Give & take in ALL ASPECTS of life is how the world has existed FOREVER. The battle of the "SEX's" is NO EXCEPTION. Used to happen quietly behind closed doors, but the neighbors knew. All the 70's did was make it public, like everything else. Seems to me that modern science has just allowed people to expose their lives to a larger audience. For me, it ALL goes back to she simple ideas of; different strokes for different folks; respect different opinions; treat others as you want to be treated & never burn a bridge you MIGHT need to recross.

Simple ideas are the best... to/for me.