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Topic: George Zimmerman Case: Should Charges Be Dropped?
no photo
Mon 05/21/12 11:00 AM
Two prominent U.S. lawyers are among the skeptics questioning whether evidence in the shooting death of Trayvon Martin supports the second-degree murder charge against George Zimmerman, given the confessed shooter's apparent injuries and freshly released eyewitness accounts.

"There is no second-degree murder evidence in this case," Harvard law professor Alan Dershowitz said. "It's a very close case."

Details released in the past week add to the picture of what might have transpired on that rainy Feb. 26 before Zimmerman, a neighborhood watch captain in the Sanford, Fla., community where Martin, 17, was staying with his father's fiancée, shot the teen dead.

Previously unknown particulars, including the scrape on Martin's knuckle and photos of Zimmerman's battered and swollen face -- which were taken moments after he shot and killed Martin in what he says was self defense -- coupled with eyewitness accounts that back up Zimmerman's story, suggest for some that the prosecutor overreached.

"I'd rather play the defense than the prosecutor, because there's no way you get a murder-two conviction," journalist-attorney Geraldo Rivera said on Fox News' "The O'Reilly Factor" last week.

Zimmerman, 28, whose father is white and mother Hispanic, had volunteered for the neighborhood watch committee. He has said that he shot Martin, an African-American, in self-defense after the teen knocked him to the ground, banged his head against the ground and went for Zimmerman's gun.

The release of evidence by the prosecution Thursday also included potentially damning eyewitness accounts of the tussle between the two. One man at the scene told police he saw Martin on top of Zimmerman, pummeling him mixed martial arts-style.

With more of the prosecution's evidence now public, legal experts like Dershowitz are blaming what they're already calling "the failure" of this racially charged case on Special Prosecutor Angela Corey.

"If there are demonstrations, the finger of responsibility will point directly at the prosecutor," Dershowitz said.

Corey, the state attorney in Florida's Fourth Judicial Circuit Court, was assigned to the case by Florida Gov. Rick Scott nearly a month after the shooting. Corey said this weekend that evidence released so far is not the sum total of her case.

"What the general public has to remember and the media has to remember is that there is a lot we cannot release by law," Corey said.

Zimmerman's attorney Mark O'Mara apparently agrees with Corey.

"[It is] way too early to tell," he said. "That's me not only commenting on evidence, but the weight of all the evidence. And I don't even have all the evidence."

One key to the case is which of the two men instigated the clash that left Martin dead. The prosecution says Zimmerman initiated the altercation when he "profiled" Martin that night, and then got out of his car to follow him. In the newly released documents, lead homicide officer on the case, Chris Serino of the Sanford Police Department, called the shooting "avoidable" had Zimmerman remained in his vehicle.

What has yet to be seen are two main pieces of evidence: Zimmerman's statement on the night of the incident, and his reenactment of the events of that night, which could prove vital when and if the case is heard in court.

JayFoust63's photo
Tue 05/22/12 01:09 AM
This case is scary. The legislated right, to stand your ground, should have established parameters. One should never be exculpated for taking anothers' life, simply because someone was too craven to take the punishment of a fight self-initiated.
Bottom line. Zimmerman was not only unauthorized to carry his pistol, he was specifically instructed by the police department to not ingage the "suspect". He is guilty of murder.
Or do we make excuses? Okay, he saw what we all see on the idiot box and profiled the young guy. And, not racially profiled him (God that is annoying) but classified him according to the stylings of Thug Nation. (Seems to me all races have those wishing to identify with this sterotype). So he sees a thug, on his street, reports to the police, approaches the drug dealer to run him off... he is assaulted and defends himself with deadly force. Hmm.
Seriously folks. I am stunned, when even a police officer can pull a weapon and kill another citizen. You can't be allowed to kill another human being, just because they gave you a scalp wound (gee, look at all this blood). This is so sad. That so many will be really affected by this and not just use it as an absurd platform for racial disease. Anyway....

oldhippie1952's photo
Tue 05/22/12 02:42 AM
I think the only way to get at this case and have any kind of justice, even if we don't agree with the justice "given", is to have a trial and see what happens when all the evidence is presented.

Conrad_73's photo
Tue 05/22/12 04:58 AM

I think the only way to get at this case and have any kind of justice, even if we don't agree with the justice "given", is to have a trial and see what happens when all the evidence is presented.
totally agree with that!
A human Life was lost!
So the Facts have to be established as to why.

RKISIT's photo
Tue 05/22/12 05:00 AM
Edited by RKISIT on Tue 05/22/12 05:05 AM
I haven't said much about this case but as posted already if Zimmerman did what the police told him and not follow Martin the odds are this wouldn't have escalated into a death.As in many cases "IF" is meaningless.
Now on the other hand the "stand your ground" law shouldn't be abolished but maybe a little more polished.

msharmony's photo
Tue 05/22/12 06:43 AM

I think the only way to get at this case and have any kind of justice, even if we don't agree with the justice "given", is to have a trial and see what happens when all the evidence is presented.



This^^

no photo
Tue 05/22/12 07:30 AM

This case is scary. The legislated right, to stand your ground, should have established parameters. One should never be exculpated for taking anothers' life, simply because someone was too craven to take the punishment of a fight self-initiated.
Bottom line. Zimmerman was not only unauthorized to carry his pistol, he was specifically instructed by the police department to not ingage the "suspect". He is guilty of murder.
Or do we make excuses? Okay, he saw what we all see on the idiot box and profiled the young guy. And, not racially profiled him (God that is annoying) but classified him according to the stylings of Thug Nation. (Seems to me all races have those wishing to identify with this sterotype). So he sees a thug, on his street, reports to the police, approaches the drug dealer to run him off... he is assaulted and defends himself with deadly force. Hmm.
Seriously folks. I am stunned, when even a police officer can pull a weapon and kill another citizen. You can't be allowed to kill another human being, just because they gave you a scalp wound (gee, look at all this blood). This is so sad. That so many will be really affected by this and not just use it as an absurd platform for racial disease. Anyway....
No I really dont think so.

Everyone see's Ultimate fighter, and thinks ahh, a beat down never hurt anyone, or they think, he instigated so he deserved a beat down.

NO. This is a civil society. There is no excuse for assaulting someone, NONE. Teach your kids to not engage in fights, fighting is what leads to death in these kinds of situations. Not profiling, not following, not making a mistake of character: FIGHTING.

That person you want to attack, they may or may not be able to take a hit, people are killed all the time from mild strikes to the head. MMA fighters are tested often and if they show signs of impairment the fight is stopped: why? Because permanent injury can be sustained. The right to defend yourself is about preventing death OR permanent injury.

Zimmerman could have been permanently injured or even killed had the beating not been stopped. What happens in the cage when you get knocked out? A real nice guy called the ref stops the fight, in the street you can be straggled to death, or while you are unconscious they can go get a heavy object and finish you, or just kick your head to jelly.

YOUR WRONG. No one should have to take a beating for doing anything non violent. ie following is non violent, watching someone is non violent, calling the police on someone is non violent.

While all of you may not like Zimmerman for being a busy body allegedly he did nothing violent, and without proof that he did he is going to walk, and THAT IS JUSTICE.

You guys need to watch less TV, and teach your kids to be non violent.

msharmony's photo
Tue 05/22/12 07:38 AM
Edited by msharmony on Tue 05/22/12 07:39 AM


This case is scary. The legislated right, to stand your ground, should have established parameters. One should never be exculpated for taking anothers' life, simply because someone was too craven to take the punishment of a fight self-initiated.
Bottom line. Zimmerman was not only unauthorized to carry his pistol, he was specifically instructed by the police department to not ingage the "suspect". He is guilty of murder.
Or do we make excuses? Okay, he saw what we all see on the idiot box and profiled the young guy. And, not racially profiled him (God that is annoying) but classified him according to the stylings of Thug Nation. (Seems to me all races have those wishing to identify with this sterotype). So he sees a thug, on his street, reports to the police, approaches the drug dealer to run him off... he is assaulted and defends himself with deadly force. Hmm.
Seriously folks. I am stunned, when even a police officer can pull a weapon and kill another citizen. You can't be allowed to kill another human being, just because they gave you a scalp wound (gee, look at all this blood). This is so sad. That so many will be really affected by this and not just use it as an absurd platform for racial disease. Anyway....
No I really dont think so.

Everyone see's Ultimate fighter, and thinks ahh, a beat down never hurt anyone, or they think, he instigated so he deserved a beat down.

NO. This is a civil society. There is no excuse for assaulting someone, NONE. Teach your kids to not engage in fights, fighting is what leads to death in these kinds of situations. Not profiling, not following, not making a mistake of character: FIGHTING.

That person you want to attack, they may or may not be able to take a hit, people are killed all the time from mild strikes to the head. MMA fighters are tested often and if they show signs of impairment the fight is stopped: why? Because permanent injury can be sustained. The right to defend yourself is about preventing death OR permanent injury.

Zimmerman could have been permanently injured or even killed had the beating not been stopped. What happens in the cage when you get knocked out? A real nice guy called the ref stops the fight, in the street you can be straggled to death, or while you are unconscious they can go get a heavy object and finish you, or just kick your head to jelly.

YOUR WRONG. No one should have to take a beating for doing anything non violent. ie following is non violent, watching someone is non violent, calling the police on someone is non violent.

While all of you may not like Zimmerman for being a busy body allegedly he did nothing violent, and without proof that he did he is going to walk, and THAT IS JUSTICE.

You guys need to watch less TV, and teach your kids to be non violent.


I actually teach my kids to avoid strangers, especially those following them

, I think Treyvon tried, even in a state that specificically gives him the right not to even try


I teach them if a stranger tries to grab you fight and yell like crazy,, I dont know if Treyvon yelled , but he apparently fought

all 5 foot 11, 158 pounds of him against a suspicious man only three inches shorter and nearly fourty pounds heavier WITH a gun

I doubt this kid was an MMA fighter, and IM just not buying that BECAUSE some people are capable of killing with their hands its justifiable to shoot someone if they fight you with their hands,,,,,

no photo
Tue 05/22/12 08:19 AM
Edited by Bushidobillyclub on Tue 05/22/12 08:25 AM

I actually teach my kids to avoid strangers, especially those following them

, I think Treyvon tried, even in a state that specificically gives him the right not to even try


I teach them if a stranger tries to grab you fight and yell like crazy,, I dont know if Treyvon yelled , but he apparently fought

all 5 foot 11, 158 pounds of him against a suspicious man only three inches shorter and nearly fourty pounds heavier WITH a gun

I doubt this kid was an MMA fighter, and IM just not buying that BECAUSE some people are capable of killing with their hands its justifiable to shoot someone if they fight you with their hands,,,,,
Edited by msharmony on Tue 05/22/12 07:39 AM
This is just your own bias. The concrete is a deadly weapon, slamming someones head into it is deadly force. So is trying to suffocate someone, and so is reaching for a gun.

No one has the right to attack anyone else. Do you agree or disagree?

People love to say, "if Zimmerman had stayed in the car". But the real break point was, Martin should have never hit Zimmerman.

Imagine for a moment had Martin never attacked Zimmerman. The police arrive they are all having a nice conversation and everyone goes home.

It is the fighting that is the problem. Violence is the problem. Escalation starts at physical interaction. You show me evidence that Zimmerman attacked and I am then %100 for him being convicted, otherwise he did the right thing.

Criminals get away most often becuase people prefer to mind there own business instead of getting involved. I have no problem with what Zimmerman did. We need more people who are willing to keep an eye on our neighborhoods.

You change the players in this situation from the media narrative of a little innocent boy with skittles to a rapist hunting for prey, and then Zimmerman becomes a hero. This is why this witch hunt is irrational. Changing the players should not change our understanding of how actions interact with law.

msharmony's photo
Tue 05/22/12 12:13 PM


I actually teach my kids to avoid strangers, especially those following them

, I think Treyvon tried, even in a state that specificically gives him the right not to even try


I teach them if a stranger tries to grab you fight and yell like crazy,, I dont know if Treyvon yelled , but he apparently fought

all 5 foot 11, 158 pounds of him against a suspicious man only three inches shorter and nearly fourty pounds heavier WITH a gun

I doubt this kid was an MMA fighter, and IM just not buying that BECAUSE some people are capable of killing with their hands its justifiable to shoot someone if they fight you with their hands,,,,,
Edited by msharmony on Tue 05/22/12 07:39 AM
This is just your own bias. The concrete is a deadly weapon, slamming someones head into it is deadly force. So is trying to suffocate someone, and so is reaching for a gun.

No one has the right to attack anyone else. Do you agree or disagree?

People love to say, "if Zimmerman had stayed in the car". But the real break point was, Martin should have never hit Zimmerman.

Imagine for a moment had Martin never attacked Zimmerman. The police arrive they are all having a nice conversation and everyone goes home.

It is the fighting that is the problem. Violence is the problem. Escalation starts at physical interaction. You show me evidence that Zimmerman attacked and I am then %100 for him being convicted, otherwise he did the right thing.

Criminals get away most often becuase people prefer to mind there own business instead of getting involved. I have no problem with what Zimmerman did. We need more people who are willing to keep an eye on our neighborhoods.

You change the players in this situation from the media narrative of a little innocent boy with skittles to a rapist hunting for prey, and then Zimmerman becomes a hero. This is why this witch hunt is irrational. Changing the players should not change our understanding of how actions interact with law.



Imagine for a moment had Martin never attacked Zimmerman. The police arrive they are all having a nice conversation and everyone goes home.


this is something we dont know,, thats the point

thats why there needs to be DISCOVERY to find out what really happened


'violence' is a buzzword that is easy to use

when you are a female or a kid and some man has harassed you by either following your or questioning you or both, they dont need to get extremely violent to make you feel you need to defend yourself

at that point EVEN an attempt to grab you is reason enough for a reasonably minded person to feel in danger and fight back


imagine, if the ADULT in the situation had merely explained what authority he had to follow and question this kid before reaching for him (an assumption just like the assumption that Trevyon initially 'attacked' Zimmerman)


this could have been avoided and everyone went home

but , according to the person on the other end of the phone, the ADULT harassed a kid by following him around and then creeping up on him and questioning him, rather than easing his mind AT ALL By trying to explain what was going on

in my opinion THOSE decisions by the adult, are what provoked a frame of mind in the boy to have to defend himself

no photo
Tue 05/22/12 12:31 PM
Zimmerman's nose never looked broken to me, yet he found a doctor willing to report that it is broken. And one way for the state prosecutor to pretend justice is being served is by purposely filing a charge she knew won't ever stick and sending a grossly unprepared state representative to the bail hearing. Looks like she wants to protect Latinos in Florida.

msharmony's photo
Tue 05/22/12 12:34 PM
Edited by msharmony on Tue 05/22/12 12:38 PM

Zimmerman's nose never looked broken to me, yet he found a doctor willing to report that it is broken. And one way for the state prosecutor to pretend justice is being served is by purposely filing a charge she knew won't ever stick and sending a grossly unprepared state representative to the bail hearing. Looks like she wants to protect Latinos in Florida.


she will still have the stigma of bringing the charges

who knows? a woman got 25 years for firing a warning shot to dissuade a man with a history of domestic abuse against her

in this case someone actually died

jurys are not so predictable,,,,

PS. I too recall several different versions of Z's story before this final one

that he was looking for a street sign (none in the location where they fought and theres only three streets in an area where he was neighborhood watch)


that the boy said 'do you have a problem,, you do now'(not corroborated at all by the person he was on the phone with and NO MENTION that he was on the phone when he allegedly said it)

that the son NEVER followed the boy (From Zimmermans father)


that he was being 'pummeled' (obviously not the case from pictures that night)

that the boy was over six feet (the autopsy shows 5 foot 11 and 158 pounds)


I think Z's story is full of wholes personally, especially with how many versions there have been,,,,just seems to me, in my gut anyhow, that his judge father has been getting him out of messes so often that he now feels entitled to administer the 'justice' he probably feels he is an expert at by now,,,

no photo
Tue 05/22/12 04:16 PM
You continue to make up stuff not in evidence to support your own biased desires.

There is no evidence Zimmerman "creeped up on him" Quite the contrary.

This really is useless, you are going to imagine what you want to confirm your own bias.

msharmony's photo
Tue 05/22/12 04:47 PM

You continue to make up stuff not in evidence to support your own biased desires.

There is no evidence Zimmerman "creeped up on him" Quite the contrary.

This really is useless, you are going to imagine what you want to confirm your own bias.



ditto


there is no evidence Trayvon 'attacked' Zimmerman as opposed to 'defended' himself FROM zimmerman,,,

no photo
Tue 05/22/12 06:12 PM


You continue to make up stuff not in evidence to support your own biased desires.

There is no evidence Zimmerman "creeped up on him" Quite the contrary.

This really is useless, you are going to imagine what you want to confirm your own bias.



ditto


there is no evidence Trayvon 'attacked' Zimmerman as opposed to 'defended' himself FROM zimmerman,,,

Yes, and a lot of evidence the other way. Witnesses ,saw Trevon as the attacker, just as he would look if he were Obama's son.

msharmony's photo
Tue 05/22/12 11:25 PM
Edited by msharmony on Tue 05/22/12 11:26 PM



You continue to make up stuff not in evidence to support your own biased desires.

There is no evidence Zimmerman "creeped up on him" Quite the contrary.

This really is useless, you are going to imagine what you want to confirm your own bias.



ditto


there is no evidence Trayvon 'attacked' Zimmerman as opposed to 'defended' himself FROM zimmerman,,,

Yes, and a lot of evidence the other way. Witnesses ,saw Trevon as the attacker, just as he would look if he were Obama's son.



a witness saw Trayvon on top at some point in an altercation

noone saw who 'attacked' whom,,,

willing2's photo
Wed 05/23/12 05:48 AM
What was dead thug doing "on top of" Zimbob?

msharmony's photo
Wed 05/23/12 07:40 AM

What was dead thug doing "on top of" Zimbob?


trying to keep from getting shot maybe?

no photo
Wed 05/23/12 07:57 AM
Trayvon Martin shooting: Witnesses change stories ahead of Zimmerman trial
http://news.yahoo.com/blogs/lookout/trayvon-martin-shooting-witnesses-change-stories-ahead-zimmerman-133743219.html

TJN's photo
Wed 05/23/12 09:10 AM

Trayvon Martin shooting: Witnesses change stories ahead of Zimmerman trial
http://news.yahoo.com/blogs/lookout/trayvon-martin-shooting-witnesses-change-stories-ahead-zimmerman-133743219.html

I'd be willing to bet their stories changed because they are in fear.
Look at a few of the beatings in the news where a group of blacks beat down someo e white and said that's for Treyvon. You think they want to go on a witness stand and be on Zimmermans side?
There is no chance for a fair trial.

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