So in order for you to salvage Jesus as the son of God, you need to have a faulty God who had faults in his original covenant?

I thought God was supposed to be all-perfect, all-wise, and without flaw. How could such a perfect God have created a faulty covenant in the first place?

This sounds like a really desperate attempt to keep an un-salvageable story afloat.

I personally don't find it to be impressive since it requires that I believe the original God faulty. That just can't be made to fly as far as I'm concerned.

God isn't faulty. Human's are faulty.

How would it be God's fault someone on Earth didn't keep to the laws?

How would it be God's fault someone does any form of sin? It's not, it's the person's fault. And you may ask then why would a perfect god create an imperfect creation. We as a creation are perfect. Our own decisions and choices are not though. Our own decisions, choices, and actions are not made by God. They are created by us. Free will is a funny thing, God does not effect your free will unless you allow him in to guide you. If he did, he would be then taking away your free will.

So, in the long run. Absolutely nothing God creates or has created is faulty.

It is the people's creation that is faulty, their actions ect. They couldn't keep the old covenant laws, so God gave us a second chance through Jesus Christ to redeem ourselves, to show our worthiness.

This would be like a parent who makes unrealistic expectations of his children. Like expecting them to go straight into college without having gone through grade school and high school first.

That would just be a flawed parent who isn't thinking clearly.

That's beside the point. If God created a faulty covenant that would be a faulty God. Even if the only "fault" was that God didn't correctly understand the objects of his own creation.



Again, if God created beings and gave them laws that they could not live by then it would certainly be God's fault. The Creator is necessarily responsible for the capabilities of the objects of his creation.



Can you point to a verse in the Bible where it states that God promises not to interfere with the free will of humans?

There are actually examples where God did interfere with the free will of humans, so even if you can find such a verse you will have just found yet another contradiction within the stories.



But that was your argument to salvage this religion. You claimed that God's recognized that his first covenant was faulty.



But that doesn't hold water because the implies that God was mistaken. That would imply that God had thought that humans could keep the original laws, when in fact they couldn't. So that would be a failing on God's part. A miscalculation of what humans are capable of.

So you'd have a God who can't even understand the capabilities of his very own creation.

Like I say, that doesn't make for a very good picture of a supposedly all-wise, omniscient God.

You've got a flawed picture of a God and you're just trying to shift the "blame" onto his creation. But that can't work. If the God misjudged the ability of humans to be able to keep a particular covenant that would still be God's failure to understand something.

So there's no way around it. A God who creates a flawed covenant that people can't keep is a flawed God.

This would be like a parent who makes unrealistic expectations of his children. Like expecting them to go straight into college without having gone through grade school and high school first.

That would just be a flawed parent who isn't thinking clearly.

The same would hold true here. You would have a flawed God who had unrealistic expectations of his own creation.

So it can't be made to fly, IMHO.

Trying to salvage Jesus as being the only begotten son who came to correct the faulty covenant of a supposedly perfect Fatherly God isn't going to work.

Can you point to a verse in the Bible where it states that God promises not to interfere with the free will of humans?

That's beside the point. If God created a faulty covenant that would be a faulty God. Even if the only "fault" was that God didn't correctly understand the objects of his own creation.



Again, if God created beings and gave them laws that they could not live by then it would certainly be God's fault. The Creator is necessarily responsible for the capabilities of the objects of his creation.



Can you point to a verse in the Bible where it states that God promises not to interfere with the free will of humans?

There are actually examples where God did interfere with the free will of humans, so even if you can find such a verse you will have just found yet another contradiction within the stories.



But that was your argument to salvage this religion. You claimed that God's recognized that his first covenant was faulty.



But that doesn't hold water because the implies that God was mistaken. That would imply that God had thought that humans could keep the original laws, when in fact they couldn't. So that would be a failing on God's part. A miscalculation of what humans are capable of.

So you'd have a God who can't even understand the capabilities of his very own creation.

Like I say, that doesn't make for a very good picture of a supposedly all-wise, omniscient God.

You've got a flawed picture of a God and you're just trying to shift the "blame" onto his creation. But that can't work. If the God misjudged the ability of humans to be able to keep a particular covenant that would still be God's failure to understand something.

So there's no way around it. A God who creates a flawed covenant that people can't keep is a flawed God.

This would be like a parent who makes unrealistic expectations of his children. Like expecting them to go straight into college without having gone through grade school and high school first.

That would just be a flawed parent who isn't thinking clearly.

The same would hold true here. You would have a flawed God who had unrealistic expectations of his own creation.

So it can't be made to fly, IMHO.

Trying to salvage Jesus as being the only begotten son who came to correct the faulty covenant of a supposedly perfect Fatherly God isn't going to work.

But that was your argument to salvage this religion. You claimed that God's recognized that his first covenant was faulty.

You keep trying to pass the blame. Your actions, your choices, are made by YOU. They are not made by God, your parents, aliens, or anything other then you. The laws of the old covenant weren't unrealistic. They were simple, again no stealing, no lying, no murdering, told of how to receive forgiveness of sins, ect. What is so hard about following those laws? It is because of the own people's decisions to be disobedient God chose to give us a second chance through Jesus, because we couldn't do on our own. Again, not God's fault. Because again, your actions come from YOU, not anyone or anything else.

What are you talking about now? Salvage this religion? What in the world man? Not trying to "salvage" anything, nor does anything need to be "salvaged". There is only a problem in this belief between your left and right ear. Yeah some people believe in it, some don't. But you go further then that. You twist things around and try to basically justify your reasoning of rejecting it. Why do you need to justify your reasoning of rejecting it? You don't believe in it, cool, good for you.

Why would you think that Jesus should be in Genesis?

Jesus didn't even agree with the teachings of the Torah. He clearly renounced those teachings in favor of teachings moral values that were more along the lines of Mahayana Buddhism which was quite popular in Jesus' day.

Jesus renounced the seeking of revenge as was taught in the Torah, via "An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth". Jesus taught instead that people should forgive one another and turn the other cheek (a metaphor meaning not to seek revenge as was taught in the Torah)

Jesus renounced that judging of others and taught people no to judge others. Yet the Torah commanded people to judge others by asking them to stone sinners to death. It would be impossible to stone someone to death as a "sinner" if you had not first judged them to be a "sinner".

So once again Jesus rebuked the teachings of the Torah. Clearly Jesus could not have been party to those teachings as he was himself clearly not in agreement with those teachings.

The Torah taught people to stone sinners and heathens to death, and even unruly children! Jesus suggested that only those who are themselves without sin should cast the first stone. He knew that this would solve the problem because people who are indeed without sin are not the kind of people to throw stones. So once again he rebuked the teachings of the Torah.

About the only thing in the Torah that Jesus appears to have agreed with was the verse, "I said, ye are Gods".

Obviously if Jesus was indeed a Mahayana Buddhist that would fit right in with his spiritual views. Jesus also taught "I and the Father are One", but when challenged over that he responded with the above, "It is not written in your law, 'I said, ye are Gods'."?

That's about the only place he actually used the Torah to support his views and teachings.

So I don't understand why anyone would be searching in Genesis for Jesus. Jesus clearly renounced the vast majority of teachings from those Hebrew Scriptures.

Now you're just trying to argue. I never said God our father created everything. I said "God" created everything. In this case we would be talking about lord "GOD". You try so hard to find contradictions in people's posts and or problems in their posts to argue about and throughout the bible. It's quite funny and amusing.

I never said God our father created everything. I said "God" created everything. In this case we would be talking about lord "GOD".

Cowboy...if you claim that Jesus is "Lord God" and the term "The Lord God" wasn't used until Genesis 2:7

then name the God that was doing all the creating between Genesis 1:1 until Genesis 2:6

1.Baal
2.Yahweh
3.Abracadabra
3.Aunt Bee

To the best of my knowledge, we do not know the father's name. It is not included in the king james version of the bible nor any english version. It might be in the original scriptures, I do not know. Nor did Jesus ever say it. He merely said things along the lines of "FATHER, forgive them for they know not what they do". Jesus only referanced God by "father".

You keep trying to pass the blame. Your actions, your choices, are made by YOU. They are not made by God, your parents, aliens, or anything other then you. The laws of the old covenant weren't unrealistic. They were simple, again no stealing, no lying, no murdering, told of how to receive forgiveness of sins, ect. What is so hard about following those laws? It is because of the own people's decisions to be disobedient God chose to give us a second chance through Jesus, because we couldn't do on our own. Again, not God's fault. Because again, your actions come from YOU, not anyone or anything else.

I must say you are pulling things from your a**. This whole paragraph doesn't make any logical sense.

If the laws were simple and the people didn't follow the rules, why would you give them simpler rules to follow?

Why would you send your son to die so that people can have an easier time getting forgivness if the rules were simple to begin with?

If they were simple before Jesus, and we just didn't follow the rules, why couldn't we do it on our own?

If we couldn't do it on our own, how is that not God's fault for creating us with out the capability to attain forgivness for our sins?

I think religous people sometimes confuse logic and faith.

I must say you are pulling things from your a**. This whole paragraph doesn't make any logical sense.

If the laws were simple and the people didn't follow the rules, why would you give them simpler rules to follow?

Why would you send your son to die so that people can have an easier time getting forgivness if the rules were simple to begin with?

If they were simple before Jesus, and we just didn't follow the rules, why couldn't we do it on our own?

If we couldn't do it on our own, how is that not God's fault for creating us with out the capability to attain forgivness for our sins?

I think religous people sometimes confuse logic and faith.

Why would you send your son to die so that people can have an easier time getting forgivness if the rules were simple to begin with?

If we couldn't do it on our own, how is that not God's fault for creating us with out the capability to attain forgivness for our sins?

Exactly.

Also, Cowboy failed to recognize the actual issues.

Cowboy referred to laws that were supposedly not changed. For example, lying, stealing, murdering, etc.

Jesus didn't tell us that it's now ok to lie, steal and murder.

Nope.

The things that Jesus would have CHANGED concerning the supposedly "Flawed Old Covenant" is that we are no longer supposed to judge other people, stone people to death for every little things, and that we are no longer supposed to seek revenge but instead we are now supposed to forgive everyone and turn the other cheek.

So the "Flaws" the Jesus supposedly repaired in this Old Covenant were undesirable things to begin with.

Thus the original God himself must have been "Flawed" to have put those things in the original covenant.

This, of course assumes that a person believes that God was inept the first time around and had to later send his son to fix up his original flawed covenant.

~~~~~

I personally feel that this whole scenario needs to be questioned.

Since everyone seems to be in agreement that the original texts were indeed flawed, then it seems to me that the next intelligent thing to do would be to dismiss those original texts as having been from God in the first place.

Flawed scriptures should just be discarded. Why assume that the God himself was flawed. That make no sense.

Instead, let's take a look at things from the perspective of the Jews themselves, after all this was originally THEIR religion!

They rejected the whole idea that Jesus came to fix up a flawed covenant. And they point out that Jesus didn't fulfill the required prophecies anyway. He was never given the thrown of David to become the King of the Jews as the prophecy requires.

So the Jews just rejected Jesus altogether and just keep the original Flawed covenant.

However, people who recognize that the teachings of Jesus are clearly morally superior to the teachings of the Torah, should simply recognize that Jesus was indeed renouncing the Torah and teaching better moral values.

I do this by recognizing that Jesus most likely was teaching the moral values of Buddhism which makes perfect sense, both historically and logically.

The authors of the New Testament tried to "fix" the problem by having Jesus be the son of the Flawed God who came to "fix" God's flawed original covenant.

I can see why some people would prefer that view. It superficially allows them to continue to believe in the older flawed scriptures whilst giving Jesus the confirmation of being a demigod by placing him on the shoulders of the previous flawed God.

But that's truly a convoluted and unworkable scenario. The fact that so many people over the centuries have accepted these rumors is truly baffling.

It seems that there is a major desperation by many people to have a supreme deity who is the "King of Kings and Lord of Lords". That's the egotistical notion that they aren't willing to part with.

People need a KING, or an ultra egotistical authoritarian godhead who will pass judgment on all those who do them wrong.

They really like this idea of a God who will judge their enemies to be bad people and deal with them.

I think that's probably the single greatest attraction that these religions have for people. They want to believe that "Cosmic Justice" is done!

They really like this idea of a God who will judge their enemies to be bad people and deal with them.

The things that Jesus would have CHANGED concerning the supposedly "Flawed Old Covenant" is that we are no longer supposed to judge other people, stone people to death for every little things, and that we are no longer supposed to seek revenge but instead we are now supposed to forgive everyone and turn the other cheek

There is but one sin greater then any other, and that is denying our lord Jesus Christ. All other sins are equal and forgivable.

Cowboy wrote:

Not because the covenant was flawed though

That isn't even in the scriptures at all.

It's blaspheme against the HOLY SPIRIT that is unforgivable. It has absolutely nothing at all to do with denying the rumors that Jesus was supposedly the Christ.



But that was your original claim.

You claimed that God found that his original covenant was flawed and this is why he needed to send Jesus to fix up these flaws.

So this was your very own argument. You are the one who introduced this as the explanation for why it was necessary for God to change his covenant with mankind.

Clearly you're talking in circle and you have no workable solution to the obvious contradictions in these collections of fables.

You're just trying to make up excuses as you go along that clearly don't work.

You claimed that God found that his original covenant was flawed and this is why he needed to send Jesus to fix up these flaws.

I looked further into it which I should have done before making my first post. But it seems that our father's name is Yahweh. Yahweh is in the original writings. It is found in the Torah.

now that you know that it was Yahweh as the God that was creating during the first day of Creation

then logic would tell you that Yahweh is the God that created everything during the other 5 days of Creation

it would mean that he also created Man

and this is why Yahweh and not jesus is "The Lord God" mention in Genesis 2:7 as being the creator of Man