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| Topic: OK GOD I can handle it from here? | |
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Cowboy wrote: And you've shown nothing scientific about your defense either, so what's your point? I don't need to show it. It's already printed in tons of textbooks and taught in universities around the world. The only place any of this stuff is questioned is on Internet forums by laymen who don't know any better. The scientific giants have already made it perfectly clear that the Bible makes no sense. "The religion of the future will be a cosmic religion. It should transcend personal God and avoid dogma and theology. Covering both the natural and the spiritual, it should be based on a religious sense arising from the experience of all things natural and spiritual as a meaningful unity. Buddhism answers this description. If there is any religion that could cope with modern scientific needs it would be Buddhism." - Albert Einstein Science is already well on it's way beyond the personal egotistical Zeus-like Gods. |
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Cowboy wrote: And you've shown nothing scientific about your defense either, so what's your point? I don't need to show it. It's already printed in tons of textbooks and taught in universities around the world. The only place any of this stuff is questioned is on Internet forums by laymen who don't know any better. The scientific giants have already made it perfectly clear that the Bible makes no sense. "The religion of the future will be a cosmic religion. It should transcend personal God and avoid dogma and theology. Covering both the natural and the spiritual, it should be based on a religious sense arising from the experience of all things natural and spiritual as a meaningful unity. Buddhism answers this description. If there is any religion that could cope with modern scientific needs it would be Buddhism." - Albert Einstein Science is already well on it's way beyond the personal egotistical Zeus-like Gods. And your text books hold no more power then the bible. You can not prove any of those books are true anymore then I can prove the bible being true. Bottom line, it boils down to what YOU wish to accept as true. What YOU have faith in. |
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Edited by
Jeanniebean
on
Fri 03/04/11 11:36 AM
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Cowboy,
Bottom line, it boils down to what YOU wish to accept as true. What YOU have faith in. Just keep an open mind. |
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Cowboy wrote: And your text books hold no more power then the bible. You can not prove any of those books are true anymore then I can prove the bible being true. Bottom line, it boils down to what YOU wish to accept as true. What YOU have faith in. Well, I totally disagree with you on this. You can prove that much of what is claimed in scientific textbooks is indeed true. You can prove it by performing the experiments yourself and see the results right before your very eyes. You can also use logic and mathematics to show that the reasoning is solid. You can't do any of that with the bible. On the contrary I can show, and have shown repeatedly, where the biblical stories totally contradict their very own premises. So as far as I'm concerned, I've already shown why the bible is necessarily false without a doubt. Moreover, if you are prepared to confess that a belief in the bible does indeed reduce to nothing more than faith, then my response to that is the following: Why would I want to place my faith in an idea that I am odds with my creator and the only way to get back into grace with that creator is to accept that he had to have his son butchered on a pole so that the innocent blood of his son could somehow atone my so-called "sins"? With all due respect, if I'm going to place pure faith in something, I would much prefer to have faith that no such predicament ever existed. I can't honestly imagine how anyone could be disappointed to discover that the biblical fables are false. On the contrary it would be the greatest reason to rejoice. Why would anyone want to place faith in such a dismal picture of reality. Those fables even have Jesus himself proclaiming that only FEW will make it into the kingdom of God. What kind of "good news" is that supposed to be? That could only be "good news" for a few arrogant people who think that they are going to among the "few" who make it. And even then, for them to actually be happy about the situation would imply that they truly don't give a damn about the fact that MOST to not make it. There is nothing in those stories that I would actually "want" to believe in pure faith. So if it's a matter of faith, then I see absolutely no reason to even bother with it. Why place your "faith" in such a dismal picture of reality? You, as a supposed believer, don't even trust Jesus to save you. You've said on many occasions that you don't know whether Jesus would ultimately accept you or reject you come judgment day. What the hell kind of a religion is that for a person to place their "faith" in. You may as well place your faith in shooting craps. According to you, it's a God that you can't even trust to 'save' you. It's a gamble right up to judgment day according to you. You stated on many occasions that you have no clue whether Jesus will 'save' you or not. You're just hoping against hope that you might be one of the FEW who happens to win the gospel lottery. Sounds pretty iffy to me. In fact, it's sounds outright desperate actually. |
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Cowboy, Bottom line, it boils down to what YOU wish to accept as true. What YOU have faith in. Just keep an open mind. Truly. For me, the bottom line is extremely simple. I personally believe that if there is a higher consciousness, it's not only wiser than myself, but it's also far more compassionate and understanding. That's really all I need to know. And as long as that's true then I have no fear that I will be "saved" because ultimately there is nothing to be "saved" from since God isn't a threatening monster in the first place. These religious fanatics are basically just trying to make out like if you refuse to worship their religion then God will become demonic toward YOU!  That's really all these kinds of religions amount to. Either join our cult, or God will HATE YOU! It's YOUR CHOICE!  Yeah right. That's what the Hebrew culture was all about. Either join our cult or God will hate you! |
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When do you become master of your own fate? I ask this question because I find it interesting that the meanist life, the poorest existence, is attributed to God's will, but as human beings become more affluent,as their living stadndard and style begain to ascend the material scale, God descends the scale of respondibility at a commensurate speed. I think there is one master but I dont think that master runs our life for us (unless we ask his assistance sincerely). The most he does is 'help the child who has his own',,,in other words we have to take the INITIATIVE to put in the work and ask his hand in helping us do so instead of expecting him to do it FOR us. I am one of those who believe everything in life is a choice but death once we are grown and that everything connects to everything else. The tragedies and the triumphs come at the end of a string of choices of some sort. |
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Edited by
darkowl1
on
Fri 03/04/11 01:11 PM
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life is merely the search for wisdom, and what it may bring to you. it's merely what life really is. a tool to learn. what you make of it, and whether you're happy or not is entirely up to you. i've seen quadripeds happy and smiling, and people with all things attainable in life, absolutely miserable, and it had nothing to do with religion. one can even find happiness in solitary confinement for years on end. it just depends on your mindset.
some stop this.... some end their own learning and life..... i've watched this, and it's tragic to watch them try to get back in their dead body, even if it's mutilated beyond repair. then they wander around and freak out, because they have unfinnished business. yes, i believe it's a school of sorts. the soul is truly a powerful thing..... no devil ever came, no god struck the soul down either. he was just...."there", bitching and complaining, and totally freaking out in general wondering.....why......  why his body died, but he didn't........  good case for not commiting suicide ehh? |
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Cowboy, Bottom line, it boils down to what YOU wish to accept as true. What YOU have faith in. Just keep an open mind. Truly. For me, the bottom line is extremely simple. I personally believe that if there is a higher consciousness, it's not only wiser than myself, but it's also far more compassionate and understanding. That's really all I need to know. And as long as that's true then I have no fear that I will be "saved" because ultimately there is nothing to be "saved" from since God isn't a threatening monster in the first place. These religious fanatics are basically just trying to make out like if you refuse to worship their religion then God will become demonic toward YOU! That's really all these kinds of religions amount to. Either join our cult, or God will HATE YOU! It's YOUR CHOICE! Yeah right. That's what the Hebrew culture was all about. Either join our cult or God will hate you! There is no cult nor does God hate anyone. Our father has unconditional love. If you don't reward your children with the gifts they desire, does that mean you don't love them? Eternal life and the paradise that is built for us is a GIFT. It's not something automatically given to us in the end of this world, it's earned through obedience. It's not taken away cause of disobedience. |
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Cowboy wrote: And you've shown nothing scientific about your defense either, so what's your point? I don't need to show it. It's already printed in tons of textbooks and taught in universities around the world. The only place any of this stuff is questioned is on Internet forums by laymen who don't know any better. The scientific giants have already made it perfectly clear that the Bible makes no sense. "The religion of the future will be a cosmic religion. It should transcend personal God and avoid dogma and theology. Covering both the natural and the spiritual, it should be based on a religious sense arising from the experience of all things natural and spiritual as a meaningful unity. Buddhism answers this description. If there is any religion that could cope with modern scientific needs it would be Buddhism." - Albert Einstein Science is already well on it's way beyond the personal egotistical Zeus-like Gods. I don't need to show it. It's already printed in tons of textbooks and taught in universities around the world. Then likewise I have nothing to show. The knowledge of God is printed in tons of textbooks and taught in universities around the world. |
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Cowboy wrote: And your text books hold no more power then the bible. You can not prove any of those books are true anymore then I can prove the bible being true. Bottom line, it boils down to what YOU wish to accept as true. What YOU have faith in. Well, I totally disagree with you on this. You can prove that much of what is claimed in scientific textbooks is indeed true. You can prove it by performing the experiments yourself and see the results right before your very eyes. You can also use logic and mathematics to show that the reasoning is solid. You can't do any of that with the bible. On the contrary I can show, and have shown repeatedly, where the biblical stories totally contradict their very own premises. So as far as I'm concerned, I've already shown why the bible is necessarily false without a doubt. Moreover, if you are prepared to confess that a belief in the bible does indeed reduce to nothing more than faith, then my response to that is the following: Why would I want to place my faith in an idea that I am odds with my creator and the only way to get back into grace with that creator is to accept that he had to have his son butchered on a pole so that the innocent blood of his son could somehow atone my so-called "sins"? With all due respect, if I'm going to place pure faith in something, I would much prefer to have faith that no such predicament ever existed. I can't honestly imagine how anyone could be disappointed to discover that the biblical fables are false. On the contrary it would be the greatest reason to rejoice. Why would anyone want to place faith in such a dismal picture of reality. Those fables even have Jesus himself proclaiming that only FEW will make it into the kingdom of God. What kind of "good news" is that supposed to be? That could only be "good news" for a few arrogant people who think that they are going to among the "few" who make it. And even then, for them to actually be happy about the situation would imply that they truly don't give a damn about the fact that MOST to not make it. There is nothing in those stories that I would actually "want" to believe in pure faith. So if it's a matter of faith, then I see absolutely no reason to even bother with it. Why place your "faith" in such a dismal picture of reality? You, as a supposed believer, don't even trust Jesus to save you. You've said on many occasions that you don't know whether Jesus would ultimately accept you or reject you come judgment day. What the hell kind of a religion is that for a person to place their "faith" in. You may as well place your faith in shooting craps. According to you, it's a God that you can't even trust to 'save' you. It's a gamble right up to judgment day according to you. You stated on many occasions that you have no clue whether Jesus will 'save' you or not. You're just hoping against hope that you might be one of the FEW who happens to win the gospel lottery. Sounds pretty iffy to me. In fact, it's sounds outright desperate actually. Well, I totally disagree with you on this. You can prove that much of what is claimed in scientific textbooks is indeed true. You can prove it by performing the experiments yourself and see the results right before your very eyes. You can also use logic and mathematics to show that the reasoning is solid. You're shooting way out in left field with this one. Of course scientific experiments can show different scientific things. I'm not saying science is wrong. We weren't talking about "science" in general. We were talking about the creation of the world and weather it was made by God or we came from the big bang theory or we evolved, or any other possibility you may be able to come up with. Stay on topic please. |
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Edited by
Jeanniebean
on
Fri 03/04/11 02:32 PM
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You're shooting way out in left field with this one. Of course scientific experiments can show different scientific things. I'm not saying science is wrong. We weren't talking about "science" in general. We were talking about the creation of the world and weather it was made by God or we came from the big bang theory or we evolved, or any other possibility you may be able to come up with. Stay on topic please. Seriously, Cowboy, who is to say that "God" was not behind the "big bang" or who is to say that God or an intelligent thinking consciousness is not behind evolution? Why do you have to have a magical personality who just says "poof" and "creates" the world? Isn't that as silly and childish as believing in Santa? Okay, lets say God did create the world. Tell me how he did it. In his lab? Or did he just think it up and it appeared? In a way, that is how some people say we create our own reality. From our thoughts. Perhaps this world is simply God's dream. When God wakes up, we are gone. |
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faith in some "religion"(not spirituality, that's different), no matter how smart or dumb it is, or how logical or illogical, will have people stead-fast in beliefs, in many people, in many walks of life. trying to change their mind is futile, and each one learns and believes what they will, regardless of facts or theories. Science, different dimensions, and what we believe life itself is, can't argue any point either, no matter how well put together, or how sovereign it's represented.
whatever makes one happy is where the route should be, and what respect we should have for each other, not forcing opinions is where the path should take us to real enlightenment of all creatures in the universe. |
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faith in some "religion"(not spirituality, that's different), no matter how smart or dumb it is, or how logical or illogical, will have people stead-fast in beliefs, in many people, in many walks of life. trying to change their mind is futile, and each one learns and believes what they will, regardless of facts or theories. Science, different dimensions, and what we believe life itself is, can't argue any point either, no matter how well put together, or how sovereign it's represented. whatever makes one happy is where the route should be, and what respect we should have for each other, not forcing opinions is where the path should take us to real enlightenment of all creatures in the universe. nicely said, we all follow our own path for our own reasons what makes us happy in life might be our goal, or what will give us eternal happiness might be our goal, but in the end we all have a desire for 'happiness' in common and we all have to find our own path leading to it,,, |
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Cowboy Wrote: There is no cult nor does God hate anyone. Our father has unconditional love. If you don't reward your children with the gifts they desire, does that mean you don't love them? Eternal life and the paradise that is built for us is a GIFT. It's not something automatically given to us in the end of this world, it's earned through obedience. It's not taken away cause of disobedience. The religion is the cult. It has nothing to do with God. Your confusion on that point is your own dilemma. Cowboy wrote: You're shooting way out in left field with this one. Of course scientific experiments can show different scientific things. I'm not saying science is wrong. We weren't talking about "science" in general. We were talking about the creation of the world and weather it was made by God or we came from the big bang theory or we evolved, or any other possibility you may be able to come up with. Stay on topic please. The evidence for the Big Bang is conclusive. There is no doubt about it whatsoever. The microwave background radiation has removed all doubt. Our understanding of cosmology and the 14 billion year evolution of the universe is quite profound and sound. Same is true for the biological evolution of life on Earth. In order for your religion to be true, all of these scientific facts would need to be false. You're trying to salvage an ancient mythology at the cost of ignoring reality. Clearly you're obsessed with your religious convictions beyond rationality. |
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You're shooting way out in left field with this one. Of course scientific experiments can show different scientific things. I'm not saying science is wrong. We weren't talking about "science" in general. We were talking about the creation of the world and weather it was made by God or we came from the big bang theory or we evolved, or any other possibility you may be able to come up with. Stay on topic please. Seriously, Cowboy, who is to say that "God" was not behind the "big bang" or who is to say that God or an intelligent thinking consciousness is not behind evolution? Why do you have to have a magical personality who just says "poof" and "creates" the world? Isn't that as silly and childish as believing in Santa? Okay, lets say God did create the world. Tell me how he did it. In his lab? Or did he just think it up and it appeared? In a way, that is how some people say we create our own reality. From our thoughts. Perhaps this world is simply God's dream. When God wakes up, we are gone. Truly. And like I always try to point out, spiritual philosophies like Eastern Mysticism allow for all of these possibilities, a physical big bang, or a dream. Row row row your boat, life is but a dream! When life is over we will all wake up and realize that we are the dreamer. This idea that we could be some "independent ego" that needs to be "preserved" to serve some patriarchal Zeus-like Godhead is a Middle Eastern myth. That religion is entirely based on ego. It's a view that we are our ego, and when we die our ego will be judged to have been naughty or nice, and either preserved or erased or punished as the ego deserves. It's clearly a Santa Claus religion. The Santa Claus God knows whether you've been naughty or nice and will either shower you with great gifts or give you a lump of coal depending on what you deserve. But the problem is that the Abrahamic religions don't even stop there! They demand that it's totally irrelevant whether you've been naughty or nice! Good works are futile if you haven't been assimilated into the CULT! This is where the religion went awry. Sin and salvation became meaningless, and all that matters is assimilation into the CULT. That's what the religion deteriorated to become. Well, actually in terms of the Abrahamic religions they started out that way with their jealous God in the first place. |
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Cowboy wrote: There is no cult nor does God hate anyone. Our father has unconditional love. If you don't reward your children with the gifts they desire, does that mean you don't love them? Eternal life and the paradise that is built for us is a GIFT. It's not something automatically given to us in the end of this world, it's earned through obedience. It's not taken away cause of disobedience. I really feel a need to comment on this a bit further. You so often give this parent/child analogy with God and act like the sole relationship between a parent and the child comes down to "obedience". I don't even view a parent/child relationship to come down to that at all. Not in the least. I wouldn't want my children to just blindly obey and just to show their respect for my "authority". That is not my view of a healthy parent/child relationship. My view of a parent is someone who has total full responsibility toward the child they chose to create. And that responsibility is in being a good mentor for the child. I don't want my child to just blindly obey because "I say so". That's ignorant. I would strive to teach my child to fully understand what's right and wrong and be able to comprehend this for themselves. I would want my child to do what right, not in blatant obedience to me, but simply because I taught them to fully understand why the right thing to do is also the wisest thing to do. The picture you paint of God is an entity who simply demands obedience but isn't willing to invest the quality time to mentor the child properly. From my point of view that would be a horrible parent. Parents like that are a dime a dozen. I would certainly hope that an cosmic creator would be far about that simple "obedience" mentality. I personally consider that to be a very poor parenting mentality to be quite honest about it. Yet, this is the kind of parent that you are trying to paint God out to be. |
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Yes this demand for obedience sounds more like a master - slave relationship.
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Yes this demand for obedience sounds more like a master - slave relationship. Truly. It's like a fascist dictator. Do as I say or else! That's not a good parent in my view. A good parent is a loving mentor who tries their very best to teach with love and understanding. These parents who just yell at their kids saying, "Because I said so!", is baloney. That just a mortal lack of patience and unwillingness to explain and mentor the child. Supposedly God has infinite patience, energy and resources. So there would be no excuse for a God to behave like a lot of mortal parents do. This idea that we should just accept that God has the same failings as so many mortal parents is just a really bad analogy. If I would take the time to mentor my children properly then why should I expect any less from my creator? I keep saying it over and over again, but it's so true. In order for me to believe in the Biblical God I'd really need to severely downgrade and limit my idea of what a God should be. In fact, I would need to go to such extremes that I would need to assume that God isn't even as wise or as patient as myself. That's pretty bad, I think. Why should I even bother to consider such a feeble picture of a God? A God that isn't even up to my own personal standards? That makes absolutely no sense to me at all. |
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Edited by
msharmony
on
Fri 03/04/11 10:51 PM
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Yes this demand for obedience sounds more like a master - slave relationship. why is obedience such a terrible thing? doesnt the law demand we are OBEDIENT or else? dont our jobs require us to be OBEDIENT(abide by their policies and regulations) or else? OBEDIENCE is not an enemy or a terrible thing and a master slave relationship only implies a hierarchy of AUTHORITY, not anything inately evil or terrible either I am, in a sense, master of my children. I provide for them and sacrifice for them, I have authority over them because I have RESPONSIBILITY for them, and I also demand certain things from them both in appreciation and preperation for what they must later face in their lives,,, I will take a loving master over a selfish 'freeman' anyday of the week I think people get caught up in semantics, I also dont believe that consequences equate to demands my doctor says, get rest or ELSE your body might wear down, he isnt demanding it he is WARNING me of real 'potential' consequences which are up to me,,,, |
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Yes this demand for obedience sounds more like a master - slave relationship. why is obedience such a terrible thing? doesnt the law demand we are OBEDIENT or else? dont our jobs require us to be OBEDIENT(abide by their policies and regulations) or else? OBEDIENCE is not an enemy or a terrible thing and a master slave relationship only implies a hierarchy of AUTHORITY, not anything inately evil or terrible either I am, in a sense, master of my children. I provide for them and sacrifice for them, I have authority over them because I have RESPONSIBILITY for them, and I also demand certain things from them both in appreciation and preperation for what they must later face in their lives,,, I will take a loving master over a selfish 'freeman' anyday of the week I think people get caught up in semantics, I also dont believe that consequences equate to demands my doctor says, get rest or ELSE your body might wear down, he isnt demanding it he is WARNING me of real 'potential' consequences which are up to me,,,, A master-slave relationship is a co-dependent one that enslaves both the master and the slave. It does not have to be a "bad" thing. A mother is a slave to her children because she has to be responsible for them and take care of them. This is hopefully a temporary state of affairs. A mother hopes that her children will one day grow up and be independent if she is at all functional. So any master-slave relationship is temporary or should be temporary and should benefit both the master and the slave. The slave is taken care of and he serves and learns from his master. But when grown people who would prefer being independent or free are forced to be slaves, that is bad. Even grown people who have been freed from slavery have a hard time of it because now they have to take care of themselves. When a child grows up and leave home, they realize that now they have to pay rent and buy food and gas and have responsibility. They are free but there is a price for freedom. Freedom and responsibility go hand in hand. |
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