Aye... and in order to accept the 'book of god' one must believe we came from dirt...

Which makes more sense... given the facts that exist in the world you observe with the eyes god gave you, not the book given you by men.

if somone believe 'Mein Kampf' with all their heart and tell it to you... are they not speaking 'truth' as they see it also...

sick though that 'truth' appear to you.

You are speaking 'truth' as you believe it to be...

Yet when one reads it the book is bitter.

Cowboy wrote:

and in order to accept the "book of science" one must believe we evolved from prime apes and or something of lower life.

So? What's wrong with that?

The book is not given by man. If I tell you to write something down and tell the world, are you the one that gave those instructions to the world?

and in order to accept the "book of science" one must believe we evolved from prime apes and or something of lower life.

Truth doesn't lie on if someone believes it with all their heart. Someone can believe unicorns exist with all their heart, but that doesn't mean they really do. They may think of it as the truth, doesn't make it so. And there is not truth "as you believe it or appears to you". That would be like saying truth to me is that the world only existed when I came into existence. That doesn't make it the truth even though I see it as the truth. Truth is just that, the truth. It's real, it's not just thought of or thinking that way, or anything of such. The truth is the truth and the truth of the matter is our father art in heaven and wants to abode with you. But God does not abode with sin, thus Jesus offers salvation through his sacrifice. And that's the truth.

Cowboy wrote:

All I speak of is the truth, I tell no lies.

And what's wrong with God having created us?

Your truth...

What then of Krishna, Zoraster, Buddah, Mohammad, ...

If this 'truth' be the 'truth' why then are the heavens now open to us... and they most definately are.

If this 'truth' be actually the TRUTH... Why was it necessary for a Roman Emperor to sit in judgement at a council to make it so...

If this 'truth' be actually a TRUTH... Why must a POPE be necessary?

IF this 'truth' be actually a TRUTH you would not be necessary.

Nothing. However, there are two things that must be considered if God created us. One of these must be true.

1. God created us via evolution from lower lifeforms.

OR

2. God created a universe that contains a false past in an attempt to deceive us from the truth.


I have no problem with #1. That's Eastern Mysticism.

But #2 implies a deceiving God. And that's not good.

One day the entire earth will be consumed by a 'lake' of fire... Perhaps 4 billion years from now.

One hopes mankind will have matured enough to have moved on by then.

Cowboy wrote:

Not necessarily. The only knowledge science has of where we came from and or evolved from is merely a "theory". A theory is merely an educated guess. It's educated because yes there is some evidence pointing that way, but not absolute. So why give more merit to something to admits to being a guess compared to the truth which even proclaims to be the truth and can not necessarily be "dis proven".

In five billion years when the sun is a red giant, humans will not even be a footnote in the history of the universe. Not even a memory will remain.

Eat, drink, and be merry.

Don't know what you're referring to with the Roman Emperor and there is no need for a pope. You're relationship with God is with you and God. He has even instructed us to come to him in privacy when we pray eg., Go to your closet.

I totally disagree with your comments here. The knowledge of science is not merely a "theory". That is religious propaganda and basically lies told by people who are trying desperately to support mythology over knowledge.

We know for a fact that this universe itself is over 14 billion years old. We know for a fact that the Earth is 4.5 billion years old. We know for a fact, that there have been lower lifeforms on Earth for millions of years, and that more complex lifeforms appeared as the Earth became older.

We know for a fact that DNA exist.
We know for a fact how genetics works.
We can even genetically engineer living organism ourselves at this point.

To say that things are merely 'theory' is truly nothing more than religious denial.

The lengths that you need to go to to support the ancient Hebrew myths are not less than what you would need to do to support that the ancient Greek Mythology is truth.

You need to basically pretend that scientific knowledge doesn't even exist and that it's all merely "theory".

That's not true. That's a falsehood right there.

We're currently communicating through technology that wouldn't even work if science was "merely theory".

So your claim that science is "merely theory" is a bogus claim.

And all for what?

So that you can support an ancient fable that has all of mankind at odds with our creator and in dire need of accepting that he had to have his only begotten son crucified to pay for our evil attitude?

With all due respect Cowboy, that theory right there doesn't even hold water.

I know for a fact that I do not have evil intentions. Therefore the very premise upon which these fables stand has no merit.

You need to renounce all of the intellectual achievements of mankind in order to pretend that these ancient fables have merit. And all these ancient fables do is proclaim that all of mankind is totally unworthy of our creator. There is nothing we can do to make things right. At best, all we can do is ask for forgiveness and accept pure GRACE to be 'saved' because we have absolutely no worth of our own.

That my friend, is a truly pathetic story. Even if TRUE, it would still be utterly pathetic. It would be a horrible reflection on all of mankind, and no better reflection on our "creator" since our creator would have been the idiot who created us to be like that!

What do these fables have that is even remotely positive?

They demand that all of mankind is unworthy of our creator, and our creator isn't even a very good creator to begin with. Even his own angels didn't like him and turned against him.

Yet, you are totally obsessed with these fables to the point where you are willing to toss everything that's sane, healthy, and good, out the window in favor of believing that all of mankind is utterly unworthy of our creator.

With all due respect Cowboy, I just see no value in it.

At best it's just an abomination to humankind, and doesn't say any better of God.

Even you, yourself, constantly keep comparing this "God's" actions with those of mere mortal men. The very creatures who are supposed to be so utterly inept that they are unworthy of God.

Yet, all you continually do is make up analogies of comparing God with human parents, or human soldiers, etc.

I say that if there is a supreme being it's probably so far above humans that any comparison with humans would be utterly laughable.

You know not the history of that book... Nicean Council AD (roughly) 300... Decided what was 'proper' and what was not to be included... Convened by (amoung) others the Roman Emperor of the time (who also sat in the council).

My relationship with god is.

There is no one born of woman between me and god.

He did not instruct me to pray in private but rather to have allways a prayer as I live.

God did not instruct anyone to pray in private... That book you quote does by the words of a man, the inturpretations of other men, and the further changing and rewriting of still further men.

Cowboy wrote:

All I was referring to was the "THEORY OF EVOLUTION" Which is still in fact a theory. All other facts are facts yes, again all I was referring to was the theory of evolution. The story of where man came from. And yes the planet may be billions of years old, this does not conflict with the bible. The bible does not give an exact age on the world and or exact time spans between certain incidents in the bible. That is irrelevant and pointless to know. One gains nothing from the knowledge of how old the world is.

Yes, there is indeed a "Theory of Evolution". That is the intellectual explanation of how evolution could have occurred, and that "theory" is becoming increasing elaborate as we learn more and more about how evolution actually did occur.

However, in addition to that "theory", there is also the evidence. And the evidence for evolution is overwhelming. We don't even need to show precisely how mankind evolved from a specific lower animal. The evidence that life evolved over vast periods of time becoming increasingly complex is an observed reality of planet Earth.

Besides, the Bible claims that the Earth was created in 6 days, and man was created within that same period of time. Well we know that's not true. Dinosaurs lived for at least 300 million years with no humans around. So clearly the bible contains false information. You can be absolutely guaranteed that it's false.

May I ask you why you are so obsessed with the biblical myths? What do you find about them that attracts you so?

It seems to me that nothing could possibly make a genuinely compassionate person happier than to discover that the Bible is nothing but false myths.

It would mean that you aren't at odds with your creator.

It would mean that you aren't a shameful sinner who has grossly disobeyed God.

It would mean that no God had to send his only begotten son to be crucified to pay for YOUR SINS.

What could be greater joy than to realize that all those things are utterly false?

Surely you wouldn't be disappointed to discover that they are false?

So why do you push so hard to try to support them as "Truth".

Are you simply afraid that they might be true and if you refuse to believe in them you will be shunned by God as they fables claim?

Surely you don't believe that a genuinely all-wise all-compassionate God would be so cruel and heartless to reject people for simply not believing in fables that contain such absurdities.

God asking people to stone heathens, kill their wives and children?

God instructing people to stone sinners to death?

God punishing people with plagues for not believing in him?

God using a blood crucifixion as his method of showing "LOVE"?

I don't know about you, but none of those thing appeal to me. I would much prefer that the stories are indeed just fables. I have absolutely no incentive whatsoever to even remotely want them to be true. They are an abomination to both mankind and God.

So what is it that attracts you to these stories so much? Why are you so determined that they should be true?

And would you be sad if you were to discover for certain that they are indeed false?

Is so, why?

Why would it make you sad to discover that the biblical stories are false?

Would that lead you to feel that atheism is the only other possible option?

I don't need to believe in ancient Greek or Hebrew fables to believe in a mystical spiritual essence to life.

Do you?

Perhaps that's truly the difference between us.

You can't imagine a spiritual existence without a specific fable that makes the promise of such a thing.

But I can.

So I have no need for any fables.

The truth of the universe suits me just fine.

I have no problem having evolved from lower life forms. In fact, I don't even believe that humanity necessarily represents the best possible life form by far. Heck, I can even imagine better scenarios. And I'm a mere mortal man.