You're talking about Cowboyainity. I was talking about Christianity.

In Christianity Adam and Eve "fell from grace" and are in dire need of repentance. It's absolutely a THREAT of death for having disobeyed God. It's all about a concept of "sin" (disobedience of God), and a need to repent of "sin".

The fairytale that you speak of assumes that death is a natural part of life and that some God can merely save us from this natural process if we ask to be saved from it.

But that's not how the Biblical Story goes.

So I wasn't speaking to your own personal made-up religious fairytales. I was speaking to the religions based on the biblical stories of the jealous God of Abraham who threatens everyone who doesn't repent with spiritual death, or even worse.

Many people actually believe that these stories are basically saying that if you don't gain salvation you'll suffer eternal damnation. The gospels have Jesus himself speaking of wailing and the gnashing of teeth to those who fail to obtain salvation.

It's definitely a threat. No doubt about it.



Besides, without a threat, there would be nothing to be "saved" from.

Spiritual death would not be a threat if you truly believe that you came into existence when you were born. After all, if you didn't exist before you were born, and you cease to exist after your body dies, then you haven't lost a thing.

OP, in your beliefs, salvation is a work of god, but that is only your opinion. I do not need to be saved, and if I did, only I could save myself. If salvation were ENTIRELY the work of god, then humans wouldn't have to do anything, but within the Christian religion, they do; they must accept Jesus as savior. Does god turn away anyone who does that, or does the merely act of acceptance guarantee a person a spot in heaven? If the latter is true, then salvation becomes a "work" on the part of the professor.


Abracadabra wrote:

Hallelujah, brother!

Cowboy wrote:

I once lived next to a psychopath. He tried to assault a woman in the neighborhood but she ran into her house. He became angry at me for a variety of reasons, including his perception that I refused to wave at him when I was driving; he said I put my hands over my eyes so I wouldn't see him.

One night, he lost all control and stood on his porch yelling, "I'm going to get you! That's not a threat, that's a promise!"

It seems that his perception of a threat and the perception of a threat by god is the same. If the Christian god says to me, "If you do not accept Jesus as your savior, I will throw you into a lake of fire," then I perceive that as a threat. He is saying, "Obey me or you will suffer," and that, my friend, is a threat.

If I were truly given the option of freewill, I would not have to choose between accepting Jesus or the lake of fire. I could say,"Hmmm . . . I choose not to accept Jesus AND I choose not to be sent to a lake of fire." Anything less than that is NOT freewill.

Of course, Jesus is not god and there is no lake of fire except in volcanoes.

Problem solved.

I once lived next to a psychopath. He tried to assault a woman in the neighborhood but she ran into her house. He became angry at me for a variety of reasons, including his perception that I refused to wave at him when I was driving; he said I put my hands over my eyes so I wouldn't see him.

One night, he lost all control and stood on his porch yelling, "I'm going to get you! That's not a threat, that's a promise!"

It seems that his perception of a threat and the perception of a threat by god is the same. If the Christian god says to me, "If you do not accept Jesus as your savior, I will throw you into a lake of fire," then I perceive that as a threat. He is saying, "Obey me or you will suffer," and that, my friend, is a threat.

If I were truly given the option of freewill, I would not have to choose between accepting Jesus or the lake of fire. I could say,"Hmmm . . . I choose not to accept Jesus AND I choose not to be sent to a lake of fire." Anything less than that is NOT freewill.

Of course, Jesus is not god and there is no lake of fire except in volcanoes.

Problem solved.

Cowboy wrote:

They are not threats. Only enlightening us with what will come of our immoral and disobedient actions. Only informing us of the consequences of certain actions.

If I tell you "If you put that gun to your head and pull the trigger, it'll kill you". Is that threatening you? No merely informing you of the reaction to such an action. Just as God does. He has told us the only reward for sin is death eg., pull the trigger and you'll die.

It's a simple question sir. When do you become master of your own fate? when do you make your life perfect on your on.

The religion is propaganda brainwashing.

In order to believe it you must be convinced that you're a "sinner".

Obviously they had no problem convincing you.

Sorry to hear that.

Cowboy wrote:

Now you're putting words in God's mouth. God has told us the only reward for sin is death. To retain forgiveness of sins we are to sacrifice something to show our sincerity in our asking for forgiveness. That is where Jesus comes in. God is not pleased by blood sacrifices eg., what they did in the old testament times, sacrificing animals ect. So if one doesn't accept Jesus as lord and savior, accepting his sacrifice for us, how else will one show love to our father and receive forgiveness of sins?

Cowboy wrote:

And science is propaganda brainwashing.

In order to convince people of someone's supposed "knowledge" which tends to change from time to time, so therefore in all reality there was no original knowledge there.

In order to believe all science is correct you must be convinced you were once a primate and or something of such if not lesser

Obviously they had not problem convincing you.

Sorry to hear that.

The whole religion is nothing more than an obsession with negative and perverted ideals.

The very idea that a God would be appeased by having someone nailed to a pole, and demand that everyone condone that act on their behalf to save their own butt from spiritual death, is nothing short of sick, IMHO.

So to believe in your religion would require that I accept that our creator is one sick puppy.

This whole religion evolved out of this concept of "blood sacrifices" which was common to all the mythologies of that part of the world. Including Greek mythology and Zeus.

What are you talking about science for?

Science has nothing to do with it. Science isn't accusing anyone of anything, nor are they offering to save anyone's butt from an angry invisible God.

Science has nothing to do with religion.

In fact, if you personally feel that science is the antithesis of religion, then I can only suggest that you would benefit greatly by actually studying science to see precisely what it is saying, and perhaps more importantly what it's not saying.

Science does not equate to atheism. Science has nothing at all to do with religion.

Although religious zealots often feel that it does because scientific knowledge flies in the face of the fables they'd like to put forth as the "Word of God". But that's their problem not a problem for science.

If you pay close attention you can see that the biblical fables fail on their own. No need to even bring science into it.

Cowboy wrote:

If it is so sick as you claim, then why do people get medals for going to war and dying for their country? Why do they get such a recognition for such a disgusting action? Same thing, people that die in war gave their life up for the people whom they love, Jesus gave his life up for the people whom he loves.

And that fact that Jesus was crucified wasn't what is so glorifying, nor is it exactly what our father is pleased with. The fact that Jesus lived his life giving us the information on how to achieve heaven and continued doing it even after he knew of his own personal outcome of doing as such, is what pleased God and what is so magnificent.

Cowboy wrote:

Science is it's own religion in a sense. Science claims the earth and all the life on the planet started this way, Christianity says it started that way, ect. NOTHING can be absolutely proven without giving some faith in it first. You can not prove to someone the world is round less they are willing to accept it, you can not prove that we are made up of all kinds of different cells less one is willing to accept it, you can not prove God created the world less one is willing to accept it, ect ect. That is how I tied science into this. I was using a comparison to something secular for you.

Your analogies comparing God with mere mortals must always fail Cowboy. But clearly you think of God as being human so it's not surprising that, in your mind, God should be just as feeble and frail as mortal humans.

You see, humans give their soldiers medals for dying in battle because humans don't have a choice when it comes to war. Either defend yourself against the people who are attacking you, or become their slaves, or worse yet die. So humans have no choice but to resort to such brutal methods.

But God has no need to lower himself to the helpless feeble means of mortal men. Yet, your religion has God doing precisely that.

Moreover, this is an act that God requires before he can forgive?

Who would be God's "enemy" but God himself? There is no "other side" to defeat. God is not at 'war'. Certainly not with a measly fallen angel.

The whole religion is indeed based on a very "human" picture of a God. It's not really all that much different from Zeus.

In fact, this biblical God is even still seen as a jealous male with an attitude.

What has changed really? Nothing of any significance. It's just the same fable changed around ever so slightly.

As far as I'm concerned, it simply isn't possible for an "all-wise" God to use an image of a brutal crucifixion as the "Only way" to divine love.

That's just not even close to even being resonable IMHO, much less the sign of what a supposedly "All-wise" being would set up as the only way to LOVE.

It's totally unacceptable.

You're asking me to believe in a God who doesn't exhibit anymore wisdom than I would expect from a barroom drunkard.

And your constant analogies of God using mortal humans as an "example" only serve to imply that you think God has not more wisdom or power than the average mortal human.

And you're right! That's exactly what I would need to believe to believe in your religion. I would need to believe that God is just as helpless and stupid as mortal humans.

You see, humans give their soldiers medals for dying in battle because humans don't have a choice when it comes to war. Either defend yourself against the people who are attacking you, or become their slaves, or worse yet die. So humans have no choice but to resort to such brutal methods.

Moreover, this is an act that God requires before he can forgive?

To be perfectly blunt about it, when you say something like, "You can not prove to someone the world is round less they are willing to accept it", all you're truly telling me is that some people are totally unreasonable.

Yes, I'm totally aware of that fact.

There are sound reasons for accepting scientific truths. In fact, there are even observations and experiments that you can personally do to verify these things to yourself if you are sincerely interested in truth.

However, if you're rather just ignore the evidence in favor of supporting outrageous mythologies you can do that too. The problem there is that once you've taken that stance than all religious myths (and all of science as well) instantly take on precisely the same footing.

In other words, it doesn't help your case that your choice of religious fables should be favored over any others. Because as soon as you start trying to point to 'evidence', then you instantly acknowledging that there do indeed exist reasons why one thing should be believed over another.

And once you've truly accepted that concept, then science wins hands down, and all religious fables become nothing more than that, just religious fables.

There are sound reasons for accepting scientific truths. In fact, there are even observations and experiments that you can personally do to verify these things to yourself if you are sincerely interested in truth.

Cowboy wrote:

What other choice did Jesus and God have?

Obviously putting us in a absolute paradise with no death, disease, and or anything foul, right off the bat and giving us eternal life wasn't good enough. For God already tried this, and the people refused to be obedient.

So he allows Satan to run around causing troubles for if Satan didn't cause any troubles this world would be just as the paradise which we handed back to God and said no thank you.

So yes the analogy works just fine. God is at war with Satan. Who's side do you wish to fight along with?

Do you forgive everyone immediately that just says "Sorry Abra, didn't mean to do that" then repeats the same action(s) and or something worse and says again "Sorry abra didn't mean to do that". Or do they have to earn their forgiveness in one way or other?
Weather it's treating you to something special to show exactly how sorry they are and that they wish to amend things, or just as time goes on and them not repeating the same thing? People "earn" forgiveness in one way or other even in a person to person relationship outside of God. It's not just freely given to everyone and anyone whom says sorry. It is nevertheless "earned" to a degree. Not "bought", but full heartedly earned after time.

Cowboy wrote:

There are sound reasons for accepting heavenly truths. In fact, there are even observations and actions you can do to personally verify these things to yourself if you are sincerely interested in truth

So now you have a God who's backed into a corner with no other choices?

Like I say, such a God would be extremely limited.




So now you have God experimenting with different things?

I still hold that if this God wanted to have Jesus sacrifice his life for mankind, he should have done it right there in the garden of Eden for Adam and Eve, and let THEM CHOSE. Since they were the ones who supposedly fell from grace (a story I personally don't buy into anyway because that story itself is logically flawed)



That brings up another point as well. If mankind is good at falling from grace on his own then what does mankind even need Satan for to corrupt him?

That's just yet another contradiction. Was mankind evil enough to fall from grace on his own? Or was mankind actually too GOOD for that, and had to be coerced into evil via a third party who was already evil?

The whole idea that Satan was required to incite man into falling from grace implies that mankind would never have done it on his OWN.

Therefore if this God is real, I OBJECT! I want a NEW TRIAL where mankind is placed in a garden of Eden on his OWN to see if he'll fall from grace on HIS OWN MERIT!

You see, I have major problems with these ancient man-made fables.



According to you then God is at war with Satan, and Satan poses a real and serious threat to God. Enough that God was desperate enough to have to have his own son crucified in an attempt to beat this fallen angel?

Again, all you have done is reduce God to the status of mere Earthy mortal Kings. Place in desperate situations where he has no choice but to lower himself to the same tactics of his enemy.




People can earn their respect without any need to have anyone nailed to any poles.

If you want to make this analogy REAL Cowboy, why don't you just ask me outright: "Do I require a blood sacrifice before I can forgive someone?"

The answer is NO, I do not.

In fact, the whole Jesus scenario is indeed a way to BUY your salvation without having to EARN it. All you need to do is accept Jesus as your savior and you are FORGIVEN.

What would be easier?

Do you think I would "Turn down" such an offer if I thought it was actually TRUE?

Of course not! That would be utterly stupid.

What you can't seem to comprehend here is that these fables are so outrageous and so "ungodly" that they simply can't be true.

It's that simple.

This isn't about whether or not "I want" salvation.

The question is, "Is Zeus REAL?"

Or "Is Yahweh REAL?"

And my answer is, NO, these are just fables that can't possible be true because the "Gods" in these fables simply don't exhibit even a fair degree of mortal wisdom, much less any sense of infinite define wisdom.

It has nothing to do with any 'personal salvation'.

They are simply false tales.

So now you have a God who's backed into a corner with no other choices?

Like I say, such a God would be extremely limited.

God has given us free will. So forcing us to be obedient wouldn't be a choice. Showing his face and telling us straight up face to face didn't work, so that wouldn't be a choice. It's not that God is limited, it's that we do not allow God to be fully unlimited. Again, it's not that he CAN'T, it's just that he chooses not to be as such in order to give us free will and for us to be our own eg., our choices, our decisions, ect. Since you're so intelligent and ever knowing, what are some other ways God could forgive us for our sins that would get the job done sufficiently?

So now you have God experimenting with different things?

I still hold that if this God wanted to have Jesus sacrifice his life for mankind, he should have done it right there in the garden of Eden for Adam and Eve, and let THEM CHOSE. Since they were the ones who supposedly fell from grace (a story I personally don't buy into anyway because that story itself is logically flawed

That brings up another point as well. If mankind is good at falling from grace on his own then what does mankind even need Satan for to corrupt him?

That's just yet another contradiction. Was mankind evil enough to fall from grace on his own? Or was mankind actually too GOOD for that, and had to be coerced into evil via a third party who was already evil?

The whole idea that Satan was required to incite man into falling from grace implies that mankind would never have done it on his OWN.

Therefore if this God is real, I OBJECT! I want a NEW TRIAL where mankind is placed in a garden of Eden on his OWN to see if he'll fall from grace on HIS OWN MERIT!

You see, I have major problems with these ancient man-made fables.

According to you then God is at war with Satan, and Satan poses a real and serious threat to God. Enough that God was desperate enough to have to have his own son crucified in an attempt to beat this fallen angel?

Again, all you have done is reduce God to the status of mere Earthy mortal Kings. Place in desperate situations where he has no choice but to lower himself to the same tactics of his enemy.

People can earn their respect without any need to have anyone nailed to any poles.

If you want to make this analogy REAL Cowboy, why don't you just ask me outright: "Do I require a blood sacrifice before I can forgive someone?"

The answer is NO, I do not.

In fact, the whole Jesus scenario is indeed a way to BUY your salvation without having to EARN it. All you need to do is accept Jesus as your savior and you are FORGIVEN.

What would be easier?

Do you think I would "Turn down" such an offer if I thought it was actually TRUE?

Of course not! That would be utterly stupid.

What you can't seem to comprehend here is that these fables are so outrageous and so "ungodly" that they simply can't be true.

It's that simple.

This isn't about whether or not "I want" salvation.

The question is, "Is Zeus REAL?"

Or "Is Yahweh REAL?"

And my answer is, NO, these are just fables that can't possible be true because the "Gods" in these fables simply don't exhibit even a fair degree of mortal wisdom, much less any sense of infinite define wisdom.

It has nothing to do with any 'personal salvation'.

They are simply false tales.



Of course you don't. Someone can show their sincerity in their appology in other ways to you. Sin is turning away from God, if one turns away from God how can they be forgiven without turning back around? How can forgiveness be given when the person that did you wrong is still walking away and still doing the same things they are asking for forgiveness of?

I'm well aware of that Cowboy.

And I am indebted forever to Ruth for having helped me to find some of them through Wicca. Thanks Ruth!

I've been studying shamanism and witchcraft for quite some time now and I'm well aware of the spiritual truths that can be realized and experienced via various rituals and meditations.

I've also studied the ways of the Eastern Mystics and the way of the wizard for many years as well. So I have no problem with spiritual truths.

But most of the time that's not what you speak of. Most of the time you're just talking about the biblical fables and their demands and ultimatums. I don't see where any of that can lead to any spiritual wisdom or truth.

Like someone else already said, that's just religious propaganda invented by men to control the masses.

And science is propaganda brainwashing.

In order to convince people of someone's supposed "knowledge" which tends to change from time to time, so therefore in all reality there was no original knowledge there.

In order to believe all science is correct you must be convinced you were once a primate and or something of such if not lesser

Obviously they had not problem convincing you.

Sorry to hear that.

All I speak of is the truth, I tell no lies.

When do you become master of your own fate? I ask this question because I find it interesting that the meanist life, the poorest existence, is attributed to God's will, but as human beings become more affluent,as their living stadndard and style begain to ascend the material scale, God descends the scale of respondibility at a commensurate speed.