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| Topic: Farrakhans Ministry of Hate Exposed | |
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besides the potential human context, spoken a DECADE ago what recent statement was not true,,,? He has never recounted or apologized for those statements of hate and bigotry. |
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Edited by
msharmony
on
Wed 10/27/10 01:48 PM
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besides the potential human context, spoken a DECADE ago what recent statement was not true,,,? He has never recounted or apologized for those statements of hate and bigotry. apologized to whom? for what? this is not a man likely to make some bold public apology when he lived through a time when so much WRONG was done by so many in power to oppress others and those in power never APOLOGIZED,,, he has said he has evolved, thats about as big an 'apology' the masses are gonna receive, |
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Then, he decides to remain and probably die a hating separatist bigot.
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Then, he decides to remain and probably die a hating separatist bigot. he seems at peace to me,,, |
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Then, he decides to remain and probably die a hating separatist bigot. he seems at peace to me,,, Cuz he don't be hatin' on you. Unless, you go gettin' with a white guy. |
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So much of what he says is just plain bigotry...
here are some more jewels... "That's a slave talking. Who was he [Julian Bond] talking to? He was talking to his masters. Sir, I am not the least bit disturbed by that. Any time the Jewish philanthropists financed the NAACP, they have a stake in what the NAACP does. So the leaders of that organization have to kowtow to those kinds of powers. That's what I'm angry about. I'm hateful of their inordinate control over black politicians, black intellectuals, black organizations, and I will fight to destroy that kind of control as long as God gives me health and strength. We will never be free until we are free of that kind of control that limits our ability to state exactly what we think and what we feel." Meet The Press interview, 10/18/98 "You are the National Association of Black Journalists that works for white institutions." Addressing the National Association of Black Journalists, 8/21/96 “FEMA is too White to represent us and so is the Red Cross.” Power Center, Houston, Texas, 9/11/05 What is going on in the world is a battle between “theocracy” and “democracy.” “Theo” and “cratis” are Greek words. “Cratis” in Greek means “rule.” In Latin, it’s “craci.” In English, you change the “i” to a “y”—“cracy” (rule). “Theo” in Greek means “god.” The Greek word is “demos”—demos cratis. In Latin, it’s demon craci. In English, you drop the “n,” put a “y” on the end, and you have democracy. “Democracy” is “the rule of the people,” but what kind of people? It’s the very opposite of theocracy. It’s the rule of a devil…. The enemy is plotting, through democracy, to make the whole world submit to so-called democratic values, so that the demons of the West can rule all the darker peoples of the world under “demo cracy.” 12th Annual Pre-Kwanzaa Festival held by Cops Against Police Brutality, Newark, New Jersey, 12/11/04 “I hasten to tell you that the precious lives that were lost in the World Trade Center was a cover, a cover for a war that had been planned to bring a pipeline through Afghanistan to bring oil from that region, oil owned by Unical of which Dick Cheney is a stock holder.” Saviours' Day Speech, Chicago, 2/23/03 “It is not accidental that the Black male is in the condition he is in...” This is because of a “…conspiracy of our government against the Black male” along with “…our [Blacks'] failure to accept responsibility for our actions...” Meet The Press interview, 10/12/97 The Final Call (September 2, 1997) reported that “he [Farrakhan] said Blacks in America are under a ‘death decree’ from the U.S. government but America is under a ‘decree of death’ from God.” (Baltimore, August 15, 1997) He also told that same audience that there is a “conspiracy to dumb you down.” (Note: Final Call is the newspaper of the Nation of Islam) “A decree of death has been passed on America. The judgement of God has been rendered and she must be destroyed…” New York Amsterdam News, 8/14-20/97 Harlem, NY, 8/9/97 |
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So much of what he says is just plain bigotry... here are some more jewels... "That's a slave talking. Who was he [Julian Bond] talking to? He was talking to his masters. Sir, I am not the least bit disturbed by that. Any time the Jewish philanthropists financed the NAACP, they have a stake in what the NAACP does. So the leaders of that organization have to kowtow to those kinds of powers. That's what I'm angry about. I'm hateful of their inordinate control over black politicians, black intellectuals, black organizations, and I will fight to destroy that kind of control as long as God gives me health and strength. We will never be free until we are free of that kind of control that limits our ability to state exactly what we think and what we feel." Meet The Press interview, 10/18/98 "You are the National Association of Black Journalists that works for white institutions." Addressing the National Association of Black Journalists, 8/21/96 “FEMA is too White to represent us and so is the Red Cross.” Power Center, Houston, Texas, 9/11/05 What is going on in the world is a battle between “theocracy” and “democracy.” “Theo” and “cratis” are Greek words. “Cratis” in Greek means “rule.” In Latin, it’s “craci.” In English, you change the “i” to a “y”—“cracy” (rule). “Theo” in Greek means “god.” The Greek word is “demos”—demos cratis. In Latin, it’s demon craci. In English, you drop the “n,” put a “y” on the end, and you have democracy. “Democracy” is “the rule of the people,” but what kind of people? It’s the very opposite of theocracy. It’s the rule of a devil…. The enemy is plotting, through democracy, to make the whole world submit to so-called democratic values, so that the demons of the West can rule all the darker peoples of the world under “demo cracy.” 12th Annual Pre-Kwanzaa Festival held by Cops Against Police Brutality, Newark, New Jersey, 12/11/04 “I hasten to tell you that the precious lives that were lost in the World Trade Center was a cover, a cover for a war that had been planned to bring a pipeline through Afghanistan to bring oil from that region, oil owned by Unical of which Dick Cheney is a stock holder.” Saviours' Day Speech, Chicago, 2/23/03 “It is not accidental that the Black male is in the condition he is in...” This is because of a “…conspiracy of our government against the Black male” along with “…our [Blacks'] failure to accept responsibility for our actions...” Meet The Press interview, 10/12/97 The Final Call (September 2, 1997) reported that “he [Farrakhan] said Blacks in America are under a ‘death decree’ from the U.S. government but America is under a ‘decree of death’ from God.” (Baltimore, August 15, 1997) He also told that same audience that there is a “conspiracy to dumb you down.” (Note: Final Call is the newspaper of the Nation of Islam) “A decree of death has been passed on America. The judgement of God has been rendered and she must be destroyed…” New York Amsterdam News, 8/14-20/97 Harlem, NY, 8/9/97 jewels indeed, and not untrue either,, |
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Riiiiiiiiight. All false, nasty, bigoted, conspiratorial, paranoid, delusional. Eh?
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Edited by
msharmony
on
Wed 10/27/10 08:07 PM
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one by one,, let me translate
STATEMENT "You are the National Association of Black Journalists that works for white institutions." TRANSLATION name any media conglomerates that are not WHITE owned?.... STATEMENT '“FEMA is too White to represent us and so is the Red Cross.” TRANSLATION Why would FEMA or Red Cross represent black folks when the majority of those who run it are not black folks? STATEMENT What is going on in the world is a battle between “theocracy” and “democracy.” “Theo” and “cratis” are Greek words. “Cratis” in Greek means “rule.” In Latin, it’s “craci.” In English, you change the “i” to a “y”—“cracy” (rule). “Theo” in Greek means “god.” The Greek word is “demos”—demos cratis. In Latin, it’s demon craci. In English, you drop the “n,” put a “y” on the end, and you have democracy. “Democracy” is “the rule of the people,” but what kind of people? It’s the very opposite of theocracy. It’s the rule of a devil…. The enemy is plotting, through democracy, to make the whole world submit to so-called democratic values, so that the demons of the West can rule all the darker peoples of the world under “demo cracy.” TRANSLATION REFER TO ETYMOLOGY FOR FURTHER EXPLANATION... STATEMENT '“I hasten to tell you that the precious lives that were lost in the World Trade Center was a cover, a cover for a war that had been planned to bring a pipeline through Afghanistan to bring oil from that region, oil owned by Unical of which Dick Cheney is a stock holder.” TRANSLATION how many WARNINGS were received that it was being planned and what was done to stop it AND what was the result of NOT stopping it? STATEMENT '“It is not accidental that the Black male is in the condition he is in...” This is because of a “…conspiracy of our government against the Black male” along with “…our [Blacks'] failure to accept responsibility for our actions...” TRANSLATION I dont believe slavery and jim crow were 'accidents', do you? TRANSLATION I do believe there is not enough self accountability amongst american cultures, including the black american culture, dont you? STATEMENT 'The Final Call (September 2, 1997) reported that “he [Farrakhan] said Blacks in America are under a ‘death decree’ from the U.S. government but America is under a ‘decree of death’ from God.” (Baltimore, August 15, 1997) He also told that same audience that there is a “conspiracy to dumb you down.” TRANSLATION arent black americans disparately suffering from health issues in america? is it so far fetched that , like Babylon, to whom much is given much is expected and America is not living up to Gods expectations? Is there not EVIDENCE of declining intelligence and logic skills in American Culture(and therefore in African American culture?) STATEMENT '“A decree of death has been passed on America. The judgement of God has been rendered and she must be destroyed…” ...the only thing I disagree with, although I understand those who believe that it is in a divine plan, I think nothing has to be ETERNALLY set in stone |
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one by one,, let me translate STATEMENT "You are the National Association of Black Journalists that works for white institutions." TRANSLATION name any media conglomerates that are not WHITE owned?.... in other words. "the opinions of black journalists who belong to the NABJ are to be completely discounted because some of the owners of the papers, magazines, tv etc that employ you are not black" crazy, paranoid, bigoted. they have their own opinions. all the newspapers and media in many parts of the world are latino owned, asian owned, black owned. in the us many are publicly owned....just factually wrong and bigoted. STATEMENT '“FEMA is too White to represent us and so is the Red Cross.” TRANSLATION Why would FEMA or Red Cross represent black folks when the majority of those who run it are not black folks? they represent everyone regardless of race. they are governmental and charitable organizations. ridiculous. paranoid. STATEMENT What is going on in the world is a battle between “theocracy” and “democracy.” “Theo” and “cratis” are Greek words. “Cratis” in Greek means “rule.” In Latin, it’s “craci.” In English, you change the “i” to a “y”—“cracy” (rule). “Theo” in Greek means “god.” The Greek word is “demos”—demos cratis. In Latin, it’s demon craci. In English, you drop the “n,” put a “y” on the end, and you have democracy. “Democracy” is “the rule of the people,” but what kind of people? It’s the very opposite of theocracy. It’s the rule of a devil…. The enemy is plotting, through democracy, to make the whole world submit to so-called democratic values, so that the demons of the West can rule all the darker peoples of the world under “demo cracy.” TRANSLATION REFER TO ETYMOLOGY FOR FURTHER EXPLANATION... ignorant. democracy is not the opposite of theocracy. democracy is a system by which ALL members of the society get a vote and a voice in representation and govt. delusional, paranoid, conspiratorial, bigoted. "Democracy is a political form of government in which governing power is derived from the people, either by direct referendum or by means of elected representatives of the people..." ref: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democracy STATEMENT '“I hasten to tell you that the precious lives that were lost in the World Trade Center was a cover, a cover for a war that had been planned to bring a pipeline through Afghanistan to bring oil from that region, oil owned by Unical of which Dick Cheney is a stock holder.” TRANSLATION how many WARNINGS were received that it was being planned and what was done to stop it AND what was the result of NOT stopping it? nutball disproven conspiracy theory fantasy with no basis in fact. funny though.
STATEMENT '“It is not accidental that the Black male is in the condition he is in...” This is because of a “…conspiracy of our government against the Black male” along with “…our [Blacks'] failure to accept responsibility for our actions...” TRANSLATION I dont believe slavery and jim crow were 'accidents', do you? TRANSLATION I do believe there is not enough self accountability amongst american cultures, including the black american culture, dont you? despite the reforms of the 50's and 60's whitey still has his foot on our necks in collaboration with our elected govt which blacks elected and which we are not rebelling against...like obama and all of the other black senators and representatives. it is another conspiracy. 
STATEMENT 'The Final Call (September 2, 1997) reported that “he [Farrakhan] said Blacks in America are under a ‘death decree’ from the U.S. government but America is under a ‘decree of death’ from God.” (Baltimore, August 15, 1997) He also told that same audience that there is a “conspiracy to dumb you down.” TRANSLATION arent black americans disparately suffering from health issues in america? is it so far fetched that , like Babylon, to whom much is given much is expected and America is not living up to Gods expectations? Is there not EVIDENCE of declining intelligence and logic skills in American Culture(and therefore in African American culture?) the govt which we elected is trying to kill us for no reason whatsover. that is why god is going to obliterate america... only problem is that the govt is not trying to kill blacks nor does god appear to be trying to kill americans.
STATEMENT '“A decree of death has been passed on America. The judgement of God has been rendered and she must be destroyed…” ...the only thing I disagree with, although I understand those who believe that it is in a divine plan, I think nothing has to be ETERNALLY set in stone yeah most people would disagree with that too.... |
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in other words. "the opinions of black journalists who belong to the NABJ are to be completely discounted because some of the owners of the papers, magazines, tv etc that employ you are not black"
THATS NOT WHAT HE SAID all the newspapers and media in many parts of the world are latino owned, asian owned, black owned. in the us many are publicly owned....just factually wrong and bigoted HE IS TALKING ABOUT JOURNALISTS IN AMERICA AND WORKING ON THE NABJ,, not all over the world and not isolated publicly owned stations,, they represent everyone regardless of race. they are governmental and charitable organizations. ridiculous. paranoid. THEY REPRESENT EVERYONE< MOSTLY THE MAJORITY , not the minority . democracy is a system by which ALL members of the society get a vote and a voice in representation and govt. delusional, paranoid, conspiratorial, bigoted. ALL MEMBERS DONT GET A VOTE< THOSE WHO DO GET A VOTE ONLY VOTE WHO will REPRESENT THEM AND DONT CONTROL WHAT ACTUALLY GETS DONE BY THOSE IN POWER AS A GROUP ONCE THE ELECTION IS over nutball disproven conspiracy theory fantasy with no basis in fact. funny though WHEN WAS IT PROVEN THAT THERE WASNT WARNING OR THAT THERE WASNT A BENEFIT TO CHENEY THAT CAME OF IT OR THAT THERE WASNT ALREADY A PLAN IN ACTION TO GO INTO IRAQ? the govt which we elected is trying to kill us for no reason whatsover. that is why god is going to obliterate america... only problem is that the govt is not trying to kill blacks nor does god appear to be trying to kill americans THAT IS ALSO NOT WHAT HE SAID< HE SPOKE OF A DEATH DECREE WHICH HAS THE DEFINITION (AMONGST OTHERS) of a FORE ORDAINED WILL, A FORE ORDAINED WILL FROM THE FOUNDING THAT THE MINORITY BE SILENCED AND MADE TO FADE AWAY AND A FORE ORDAINED WILL FROM THE BIBLE THAT BABYLON (AMERICA) FALL |
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THATS NOT WHAT HE SAID Oh but that IS what he said. And it was not taken out of context and the quotes are accurate. In fact, you actually agree with him on almost everything he says - and you are willing to admit it! 
What is scary is that anyone would agree with him. Fortunately most people in our society can easily recognize how false and twisted Farrakhan's viewpoint is. Journalists like the members of the NABJ, civil rights groups like the ADL and our elected representatives like President Obama are all in agreement. Farrakhan's message is to be reviled. "I have been very clear in my denunciation of him and his past statements....what he has said is reprehensible and inappropriate..." -President Obama on Farrakhan http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sHEyCnj0vMw etcetera.... |
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Edited by
msharmony
on
Thu 10/28/10 09:54 AM
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THATS NOT WHAT HE SAID Oh but that IS what he said. And it was not taken out of context and the quotes are accurate. In fact, you actually agree with him on almost everything he says - and you are willing to admit it!
What is scary is that anyone would agree with him. Fortunately most people in our society can easily recognize how false and twisted Farrakhan's viewpoint is. Journalists like the members of the NABJ, civil rights groups like the ADL and our elected representatives like President Obama are all in agreement. Farrakhan's message is to be reviled. "I have been very clear in my denunciation of him and his past statements....what he has said is reprehensible and inappropriate..." -President Obama on Farrakhan http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sHEyCnj0vMw etcetera.... actually much of your protest was your INTERPRETATION of what he meant and not what he 'said' and I dont blame anyone for denouncing some of his PAST statements, but that has nothing to do with me agreeing with some of his OTHER MORE RECENT statements he flies off sometimes, but most times he makes valid points when it comes to race relations , he gives information that is HISTORICALLY accurate, and it is in THOSE times(which far outnumber the negative moments media loves to capture) that he inspires and motivates me,,, |
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flies off sometimes, but most times makes valid points Hasn't much been heard out of the Klan lately. Your point can apply to them as well. |
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'I will say then that I am not, nor ever have been in favor of bringing about in anyway the social and political equality of the white and black races - that I am not nor ever have been in favor of making voters or jurors of negroes, nor of qualifying them to hold office, nor to intermarry with white people; and I will say in addition to this that there is a physical difference between the white and black races which I believe will forever forbid the two races living together on terms of social and political equality. And inasmuch as they cannot so live, while they do remain together there must be the position of superior and inferior, and I as much as any other man am in favor of having the superior position assigned to the white race. I say upon this occasion I do not perceive that because the white man is to have the superior position the negro should be denied everything.'
'I tremble for my country when I reflect that God is just. ' GUESS WHICH TWO MEN SAID THESE QUOTES (HINT: THEY BOTH HAVE MEMORIALS BUILT FOR THEM AND NEITHER ARE BRUSHED OFF AS MERE BIGOTED HATEFUL SEPERATISTS_ |
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flies off sometimes, but most times makes valid points Hasn't much been heard out of the Klan lately. Your point can apply to them as well. the Klan may have valid points, Id be open to anyone who could post them though Farrakhan proposes things that would improve AMERICA, not just the lives of blacks, because blacks are a part of america and he in no way proposes that non blacks should not be considered equally american the way the Klan proposes that non whites shouldnt |
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Edited by
Spidercmb
on
Thu 10/28/10 10:22 AM
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Mugabe's youth militias 'raping women held captive in camps'
Rape is being used as a political weapon by the youth militia and other groups allied to Zimbabwe's ruling party, according to human rights workers and church groups. Investigations by the Guardian reveal allegations of politically motivated rape against opposition supporters. According to victims' testimony, members of President Robert Mugabe's militia are also forcing young women to be their concubines with impunity. ... The trauma of rape is evident in the dull gaze of Sithulisiwe, 21. For eight months she was held captive at a "youth camp" for President Mugabe's ruling Zanu-PF party, where, she says, she was repeatedly gang raped and tortured. She said she was abducted in December 2001 and marched to a camp in a Bulawayo suburb. The Dispicable, deranged Louis Farrakhan was and is a strong supporter of Robert Mugabe. Therefore, Louis Farrakhan supports repeatedly gang raping white women. I'm not going to mention all of the murders, people tortured and lives destroyed by Robert Mugabe (of which Louis Farrakhan cannot be unaware), because I'm sure there are "perfectly good" reasons to overlook the horrible crimes being committed to innocent people. Louis Farrakhan is a monster who supports monsters and it breaks my heart to know that people actually defend him and believe in him. Edit: Added the italics text above. |
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Mugabe's youth militias 'raping women held captive in camps' Rape is being used as a political weapon by the youth militia and other groups allied to Zimbabwe's ruling party, according to human rights workers and church groups. Investigations by the Guardian reveal allegations of politically motivated rape against opposition supporters. According to victims' testimony, members of President Robert Mugabe's militia are also forcing young women to be their concubines with impunity. ... The trauma of rape is evident in the dull gaze of Sithulisiwe, 21. For eight months she was held captive at a "youth camp" for President Mugabe's ruling Zanu-PF party, where, she says, she was repeatedly gang raped and tortured. She said she was abducted in December 2001 and marched to a camp in a Bulawayo suburb. The Dispicable, deranged Louis Farrakhan was and is a strong supporter of Robert Mugabe. Therefore, Louis Farrakhan supports repeatedly gang raping white women. I'm not going to mention all of the murders, people tortured and lives destroyed by Robert Mugabe (of which Louis Farrakhan cannot be unaware), because I'm sure there are "perfectly good" reasons to overlook the horrible crimes being committed to innocent people. Louis Farrakhan is a monster who supports monsters and it breaks my heart to know that people actually defend him and believe in him. Edit: Added the italics text above. I dont know the truth about his relationships( I dont trust the media to give me balanced information about it) but what Farrakhan does is call out people , all types of people, on what needs improving,,,,he calls out black folks all the time but the media would rather not report that, they show only what he says about or to others as to paint him as blindly racist THIS is what inspires me 'Black man. You can't see the kingdom of God unless we be born again. Must I enter back into my mother's womb for a second time? No. You can't do that black man. But the mind of white supremacy is repulsive to God. And the mind of black inferiority is repulsive to God. And any mind of black supremacy is repulsive to God. But the only mind that God will accept is a mind stayed on him and on righteousness.' |
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Mugabe's youth militias 'raping women held captive in camps' Rape is being used as a political weapon by the youth militia and other groups allied to Zimbabwe's ruling party, according to human rights workers and church groups. Investigations by the Guardian reveal allegations of politically motivated rape against opposition supporters. According to victims' testimony, members of President Robert Mugabe's militia are also forcing young women to be their concubines with impunity. ... The trauma of rape is evident in the dull gaze of Sithulisiwe, 21. For eight months she was held captive at a "youth camp" for President Mugabe's ruling Zanu-PF party, where, she says, she was repeatedly gang raped and tortured. She said she was abducted in December 2001 and marched to a camp in a Bulawayo suburb. The Dispicable, deranged Louis Farrakhan was and is a strong supporter of Robert Mugabe. Therefore, Louis Farrakhan supports repeatedly gang raping white women. I'm not going to mention all of the murders, people tortured and lives destroyed by Robert Mugabe (of which Louis Farrakhan cannot be unaware), because I'm sure there are "perfectly good" reasons to overlook the horrible crimes being committed to innocent people. Louis Farrakhan is a monster who supports monsters and it breaks my heart to know that people actually defend him and believe in him. Edit: Added the italics text above. I dont know the truth about his relationships( I dont trust the media to give me balanced information about it) but what Farrakhan does is call out people , all types of people, on what needs improving,,,,he calls out black folks all the time but the media would rather not report that, they show only what he says about or to others as to paint him as blindly racist THIS is what inspires me 'Black man. You can't see the kingdom of God unless we be born again. Must I enter back into my mother's womb for a second time? No. You can't do that black man. But the mind of white supremacy is repulsive to God. And the mind of black inferiority is repulsive to God. And any mind of black supremacy is repulsive to God. But the only mind that God will accept is a mind stayed on him and on righteousness.' So the fact that he openly supports a dictator who runs rape camps filled with white women doesn't bother you, because he said something that inspires you?  Keep on digging, you'll hit China before you sound like a moral or principled person.
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Mugabe's youth militias 'raping women held captive in camps' Rape is being used as a political weapon by the youth militia and other groups allied to Zimbabwe's ruling party, according to human rights workers and church groups. Investigations by the Guardian reveal allegations of politically motivated rape against opposition supporters. According to victims' testimony, members of President Robert Mugabe's militia are also forcing young women to be their concubines with impunity. ... The trauma of rape is evident in the dull gaze of Sithulisiwe, 21. For eight months she was held captive at a "youth camp" for President Mugabe's ruling Zanu-PF party, where, she says, she was repeatedly gang raped and tortured. She said she was abducted in December 2001 and marched to a camp in a Bulawayo suburb. The Dispicable, deranged Louis Farrakhan was and is a strong supporter of Robert Mugabe. Therefore, Louis Farrakhan supports repeatedly gang raping white women. I'm not going to mention all of the murders, people tortured and lives destroyed by Robert Mugabe (of which Louis Farrakhan cannot be unaware), because I'm sure there are "perfectly good" reasons to overlook the horrible crimes being committed to innocent people. Louis Farrakhan is a monster who supports monsters and it breaks my heart to know that people actually defend him and believe in him. Edit: Added the italics text above. I dont know the truth about his relationships( I dont trust the media to give me balanced information about it) but what Farrakhan does is call out people , all types of people, on what needs improving,,,,he calls out black folks all the time but the media would rather not report that, they show only what he says about or to others as to paint him as blindly racist THIS is what inspires me 'Black man. You can't see the kingdom of God unless we be born again. Must I enter back into my mother's womb for a second time? No. You can't do that black man. But the mind of white supremacy is repulsive to God. And the mind of black inferiority is repulsive to God. And any mind of black supremacy is repulsive to God. But the only mind that God will accept is a mind stayed on him and on righteousness.' So the fact that he openly supports a dictator who runs rape camps filled with white women doesn't bother you, because he said something that inspires you? Keep on digging, you'll hit China before you sound like a moral or principled person.
no, that is your logic,, because person B has done bad things and person A has shown support for person B ,that person A must also be supporting the bad things person B has done as previously posted, America erected memorials to Jefferson and Lincoln but I doubt it couldnt be argued (by some) that they said and did things that were beyond defense,,,,yet they are memorialized and SUPPORTED for those OTHER things which were considered 'great' |
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