To call something - anything - "an abomination" is to place a negative value upon that which is being contemplated. It *IS* judging. To call something "wrong" is to judge it as being unacceptable.

In Christianity, Judgement Day is a well-known concept. It does not constitute the only means of judging. We all judge, each and every day of our lives. We judge who we like and dislike based upon how we feel about them. If you feel internally disturbed by the idea or act of a gay man kissing or having sex with another, then you will undoubtedly have within your belief system, a religious or perhaps moral conviction that being gay is 'wrong'.

You cannot give a logically persuasive argument to show that however, as I have just more or less proven to you that you are - indeed - judging another, despite the denial stemming from a deeply held conviction in a religious belief which has caused you to think that judging another equals clearly and unequivocally telling someone whether or not they are going to hell. That is rather interesting though, if we pursue a littel critical thinking... this is for you Di!

If one believes that sinning results in going against God's will, and that sinning is wrong, and that doing wrong could possibly or will probably land you in hell.

What is the difference? Why not just out and out say it? You're judging regardless.

Miles wrote:



Indeed. It is quite hard to say much about these things. I haven't done much research, however, I believe that you and I - and everyone for that matter - have the same bottom line.

We seek that which is true.



I agree that our government is *not* taking measures in the best interest of the people, at least not those under $125,000.00 annually. The corruption is truly sickening. That constitutes another thread though!





Indeed. If one chooses to take the word seriously, one should do much research into looking at the editing processes, meaning, and entymology along the way. In that, I hold much respect for you.



Indeed, and the government along with the economic system we adopted presupposed, or rather, clearly demanded that transparency - true transparency mind you, and not the lip service paid by the best media money can buy - was an absolute necessity. Now we have the National Security issue as a front for God only knows what.



It's called The Noble Lie, in philosophy. It presupposes that those on power have a greater ability to act upon truthful information in the best way than those being governed. That includes their being able, in 'good' conscience, to think that they a just reason to intentionally decieve the public for reasons that the government alone decided is for the citizens own 'good'.

I argue vehemently against that notion.



Indeed, once again my friend. The last sentence is the most telling. When the nation has adopted an amoral economic system that has no morality check and those with money are those in power, well... if they are immoral.

We are indeed going to see people being bought and sold.

Orwellian-style.

Brilliant.

You're presupposing that you already know things about my own life experience - of which you know nothing about - necessarily so.

Two questions here Thomas:

#1.) What makes you think that you know that I have not already done so?

#2.) Are you suggesting that The Bible tells us exactly what God's will *is* in clearly spoken and in no uncertain terms?

Because it is up to the Christian people to keep the morality,rules,laws,and bond that keeps the church pure and strong.You can't have a strong church if you are sitting back letting everyone in your congregation do the opposite of what the bible says is wrong.It is the Christians who must tell other Christians what they are doing is wrong and prove their wrong doing by showing them bible references.


You know I keep hearing the same people say over and over and over and over the judging the judging more judging more judgment the judging.

Maybe I have to say it 300 more times but judging people by the way they act is not biblically wrong it is biblically right.The entire bible from the start to finish teaches us what is wrong and what is right.It teaches us who is sinning and what we should tell that sinner.It speaks of what kind of people to avoid.Stay away from prostitutes,avoid murders,adulters,etc...Needless to say(and for some people in here they simply can't accept this fact)you have to JUDGE PEOPLE BY THEIR ACTIONS TO KNOW WHO THEY ARE AND TO DECIDE IF YOU SHOULD STAY AWAY FROM THEM OR NOT.If you say you don't judge then you simply would treat everyone exactly the same,associate with everyone exactly the same,and make friends with everyone good or bad exactly the same.This would be strongly against biblical teaching including the teachings of Jesus since he warned us many,many times of who to be with and who to avoid.I think it is pure stupidity for God to tell someone "Stay away from that person" and yet you have this Christian associating with this person(who God specifically told you to avoid)on a daily basis because he is non judgmental.


"Do not judge according to appearance, but judge with righteous judgment" (John 7:24).

"I wrote to you in my epistle not to keep company with sexually immoral people. Yet I certainly did not mean the sexually immoral people of this world, or with the covetous, or extortioners, or idolaters, since then you would need to go out of the world. But now I have written to you not to keep company with anyone named a brother, who is a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolater, or a reviler, or a drunkard, or an extortioner -- not even to eat with such a person. For what have I to do with judging those also who are outside? Do you not judge those who are inside? But those who are outside God judges. Therefore 'put away from yourselves that wicked person'" (1 Corinthians 5:9-13).

"But we command you, brethren, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you withdraw from every brother who walks disorderly and not according to the tradition which he received from us" (2 Thessalonians 3:6).


"And if anyone does not obey our word in this epistle, note that person and do not keep company with him, that he may be ashamed. Yet do not count him as an enemy, but admonish him as a brother" (2 Thessalonians 3:14,15).


Some people in here will never understand what Jesus was talking about concerning judgment no matter how hard I explain it to them.

Jesus said: "Judge not, that you be not judged. For with what judgment you judge, you will be judged; and with the same measure you use, it will be measured back to you. And why do you look at the speck in your brother's eye, but do not consider the plank in your own eye? Or how can you say to your brother, 'Let me remove the speck out of your eye'; and look, a plank is in your own eye? Hypocrite! First remove the plank from your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck out of your brother's eye" (Matthew 7:1-5).


This verse is talking about telling someone they are bad and yet you are just as bad as they are if not worse.This verse was not meant to tell Christians that they should not compare or judge good people verses evil people.It is simply saying if you are going to be a hypocrite for saying someone is a bad Christian then you should expect the same treatment if you are living a bad life.

RIGHTEOUS JUDGMENT IS NEVER WRONG.


Leviticus 19:15. "You shall do no injustice in judgment. You shall not be partial to the poor, nor honor the person of the mighty. But in righteousness you shall judge your neighbor."


1 Cor 2:14-15: "14 But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. 15 But he who is spiritual judges all things, yet he himself is rightly judged by no one."


Ephesians 5:1Be ye therefore followers of God, as dear children; 2And walk in love, as Christ also hath loved us, and hath given himself for us an offering and a sacrifice to God for a sweetsmelling savour. 3But fornication, and all uncleanness, or covetousness, let it not be once named among you, as becometh saints; 4Neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor jesting, which are not convenient: but rather giving of thanks. 5For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God. 6Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience. 7Be not ye therefore partakers with them. 8For ye were sometimes darkness, but now are ye light in the Lord: walk as children of light: 9(For the fruit of the Spirit is in all goodness and righteousness and truth 10Proving what is acceptable unto the Lord. 11And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather reprove them. 12For it is a shame even to speak of those things which are done of them in secret. 13But all things that are reproved are made manifest by the light: for whatsoever doth make manifest is light. 14Wherefore he saith, Awake thou that sleepest, and arise from the dead, and Christ shall give thee light. 15See then that ye walk circumspectly, not as fools, but as wise, 16Redeeming the time, because the days are evil. 17Wherefore be ye not unwise, but understanding what the will of the Lord is.

"Dare any of you, having a matter against another, go to law before the unrighteous, and not before the saints? Do you not know that the saints will judge the world? And if the world will be judged by you, are you unworthy to judge the smallest matters? Do you not know that we shall judge angels? How much more, things that pertain to this life? If then you have judgments concerning things pertaining to this life, do you appoint those who are least esteemed by the church to judge? I say this to your shame. Is it so, that there is not a wise man among you, not even one, who will be able to judge between his brethren?" (1 Corinthians 6:1-5).

http://www.deceptioninthechurch.com/judgenot.html


SUMMARY
Judge not? What does the Bible say?

1. We never judge from our opinions.

2. We are commanded to anakrino -- we always seek to discern: "Is this of God, or is it of the flesh, or of the devil?"

3. We are commanded to diakrino -- to render a decision as to whether something is morally right or wrong.

4. We do not krisis -- the Lord alone decides who goes to heaven and who goes to hell.

5. We are sometimes appointed to krites -- but we are to remember that the Lord is the Judge of all, and we are to judge righteously.

6. We never, ever, hupo-krites -- before we take a speck out of our brother's eye, we make sure we do not have the same speck in our own eye.

7. We always kritikos -- we draw on the Word of God to discern between the things of the soul and the things of the spirit.

1.)If you have read it you didn't understand it and need to read it again.

2.)Yes the bible tells us in great detail over and over what God's will is in this world and what he expects in us.In it's most simplest terms God's will is to avoid sin and evil at all costs,and to follow Gods rules,laws,and commandments and to love him and one another.

Amazing.

Now you think that you know that I did not 'understand' what I read?

What makes you think that you're more capable of effectively grasping the meaning behind the words in question? What makes you so certain that I lack understanding?

It seems to me that your understanding amounts to your cherry picking verses from scipture that you think supports your views here. I ind it much more engaging if someone can string together a meaningful and coherent chain of words without assistance. I mean, that to me, shows that someone understands what it is that they are talking about.

If I were to - hypothetically speaking of course - perform every voluntary act which Jesus is claimed to have undertaken(aside from the miraculous), would those actions be deemed as acceptable behavior in your eyes?

This is truly sad. So, so sad indeed.

The bible says these things? Interesting, indeed.

Show me that these words are in the Bible as you say, exactly as they are written here as you have clearly claimed by the first line. I bolded it purposefully to show the covert dishonesty in this post.

The Bible says nothing of the sort. This represents a translation of what the Bible *really* says. Why should I believe that you've accurately translated the Word, when it is quite clear that you do not quite grasp the distinction between what the bible says, and what you say it says.

I don't want to argue, I just want you to agree with me.





Actually, we can prove why a stop sign is red, but that's not important. Let me address your "problem".

I recognise the subjective factor of one's belief, that's the point I've been trying to make.
So your problem equates to this statement if I'm correct:
"*If* we have freedom of belief and there is are supposed to be no religious-based laws, then why ought we deny same sex marriage couples the ability to live as equals in a marriage contract?"


1. It offends my sensibilities.
2. Current laws prohibit it.
3. There may be immediate harm to one or both participants.
4. There may be long-term emotional or physical harm to one or both.
5. It goes against gender and roles.

Those first 5 were rebuttals to incest and minor sex from proponents of gay marriage. I think they make an excelent aguement against gay marriage as well when used in the same context, so I'll adopt them.
These next few are my reasons. Since you were the first to ask, I'll give 'em.

6. If we are supposed to have freedom of belief, why do I have to accept gay marriage as being OK?
7. Marriage has traditionaly been between a man and woman. (my form of "gender roles" I guess)
8. My children don't need to be exposed to anything of a sexual, homosexual or bisexual nature. The same applies to violent, profane, etc.

smh,,, why must ANY issue that has crossover into something in the BIBLE Become exclusively a christian issue


do people oppose murder only because the bible says not to kill, is that law therefore religious?

do people oppose robbery only because the bible says not to steal, is that law therefore religious?

do people oppose perjury only because the bible says not to bear false witness,,,is that law therefore religious?


continue with that type of logic, that any law that coincides with biblical laws is inherently religious and un supportable, and we will be living in a chaotic and lawless land

I think its been explained until my eyes bleed why MARRIAGE as a union between man and woman has been upheld and promoted and no other relationship has the same grounds to be upheld,,,

sorry for the outburst, just sometimes overwhelmed at the degree by which christianity and christians are almost exclusively condemned or blamed for western issues,,,

Yes msharmony you have explained you're opinion and belief very well, but others also have to explain their opinions and beliefs. In my belief and opinion, marriage is a union of souls, a commitment from one person to another. It is done out of love because you wish to spend the rest of your life with that person. In this day and age people are not marrying for the sake of having children, as it has been done time and again, people are raising children in single parent homes and some are happy that way, some aren't.

I do not consider marriage to be the only thing that will assist in raising well balanced children. My mother never married and, while we may have problems stemming from outside sources, she raised us to be loving, caring, people. We do not condemn others for things that we may not like, for example, I hate being preached to about christianity, but I will never condemn someone for doing it. The mere thought of sexual relations with a woman is a major turn off for me, but I would never condemn someone else for it.

If people are genuinely happy and really want something, who are we to take it away from them simply because we don't like it? America would be alot less free if we really started taking things away because we don't like it.

I would like to point out that I have no issue with christianity itself, just SOME of the people that practice it. I myself do not practice it and will continue to not practice it until such a time as people can convince me that they are capable of compassion and understanding that Jesus tried to teach.

Dishonesty??? Really???

How convenient that you left out the preceding before your bolded words.

"SUMMARY
Judge not? What does the Bible say?"


Kinda puts a whole new spin on it now doesn't it?

Wrong.

How is that wrong? They are unproductive because they can't reproduce, the ENTIRE purpose for sex is to populate the planet.

Is immoral cause God has told us not to do it, it is below the standards God has set out before man to live by.

The bible isn't god's word it is man's word, so that is no help to anyone.

You are wrong because the union of love has absolutely nothing to do with immorality nor sexual deviancy.

No, yet again, THERE IS NO WE, US.

There is you and your god who told you not to be gay.

So please don't be gay so you feel good with your god and all that.

But stop including others in with you.

This is a you and your god issue.

It has nothing to do with we and us.

Yea and populating the planet is a stupid idea in and of itself.

So I wouldn't use that too much, it comes off pretty bad.

And how do you know and or can you be sure that it's not the word of God?

So you're gonna tell me a married couple isn't going to have sex? And besides that marriage is purely for a man and a woman. Marriage is more then love. Heck, i love you, i love msharmony, i love funches, i love thomas, i love EVERYONE in this world. So wow, i'm gonna be getting married alot with the logic you're running on.

And there is no your God, my God, their God, ect. My father is your father, is everyone's father. There is but one father.