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Topic: Racial Profiling In Arizona?
Dragoness Joined Wed 10/17/07 Posts: 23320	Mon 07/19/10 03:33 PM
If you knew as much as you think you do, you would realize that SB 1070 just reinforces the federal law at the state level. And once again, nowhere in the law does it say ANYTHING about race. I've read the bill in its entirety. True statement quoted. Okay so tell me how you "reasonably suspect" a person is an alien as written in the bill and not be discriminatory or racially biased?

mightymoe Joined Sun 11/19/06 Posts: 37362	Mon 07/19/10 03:49 PM
If you knew as much as you think you do, you would realize that SB 1070 just reinforces the federal law at the state level. And once again, nowhere in the law does it say ANYTHING about race. I've read the bill in its entirety. True statement quoted. Okay so tell me how you "reasonably suspect" a person is an alien as written in the bill and not be discriminatory or racially biased? i think your thinking one dimensional here... if they pull someone over, what ever reason they have, they ask the question... why is that racist?

msharmony Joined Mon 08/31/09 Posts: 61041	Mon 07/19/10 03:55 PM
still no references to the LAW that requires non drivers to carry identification,,,,, if its indeed a law, it should be easily researched and I find no such MANDATE anywhere first, because people dont all drive, and therefore wouldnt all have drivers license which only leaves state id's, which last I checked are not mandatory for any reason....unless you need to prove age for a purchase or to enter an adult establishment i thought we settled that...you were right. not referring to you mighty,, someone else posted after you ,,sorry

Dragoness Joined Wed 10/17/07 Posts: 23320	Mon 07/19/10 04:00 PM
If you knew as much as you think you do, you would realize that SB 1070 just reinforces the federal law at the state level. And once again, nowhere in the law does it say ANYTHING about race. I've read the bill in its entirety. True statement quoted. Okay so tell me how you "reasonably suspect" a person is an alien as written in the bill and not be discriminatory or racially biased? i think your thinking one dimensional here... if they pull someone over, what ever reason they have, they ask the question... why is that racist? Yea I am one dimensional ANTI RACIST ANTI DISCRIMINATORY. That is not what the law states. "Reasonable suspicion of being an alien" How do you reasonably suspect an alien on sight without being discriminatory or racially biased?

mightymoe Joined Sun 11/19/06 Posts: 37362	Mon 07/19/10 04:16 PM
If you knew as much as you think you do, you would realize that SB 1070 just reinforces the federal law at the state level. And once again, nowhere in the law does it say ANYTHING about race. I've read the bill in its entirety. True statement quoted. Okay so tell me how you "reasonably suspect" a person is an alien as written in the bill and not be discriminatory or racially biased? i think your thinking one dimensional here... if they pull someone over, what ever reason they have, they ask the question... why is that racist? Yea I am one dimensional ANTI RACIST ANTI DISCRIMINATORY. That is not what the law states. "Reasonable suspicion of being an alien" How do you reasonably suspect an alien on sight without being discriminatory or racially biased? you don't, you have to ask..

Dragoness Joined Wed 10/17/07 Posts: 23320	Mon 07/19/10 04:23 PM
If you knew as much as you think you do, you would realize that SB 1070 just reinforces the federal law at the state level. And once again, nowhere in the law does it say ANYTHING about race. I've read the bill in its entirety. True statement quoted. Okay so tell me how you "reasonably suspect" a person is an alien as written in the bill and not be discriminatory or racially biased? i think your thinking one dimensional here... if they pull someone over, what ever reason they have, they ask the question... why is that racist? Yea I am one dimensional ANTI RACIST ANTI DISCRIMINATORY. That is not what the law states. "Reasonable suspicion of being an alien" How do you reasonably suspect an alien on sight without being discriminatory or racially biased? you don't, you have to ask.. But the law says that police WILL BE DOING IT. That is a problem.

FearandLoathing Joined Fri 12/28/07 Posts: 30121	Mon 07/19/10 04:46 PM
FOR ANY LAWFUL CONTACT MADE BY A LAW ENFORCEMENT OFFICIAL OR AGENCY 21 OF THIS STATE OR A COUNTY, CITY, TOWN OR OTHER POLITICAL SUBDIVISION OF THIS 22 STATE WHERE REASONABLE SUSPICION EXISTS THAT THE PERSON IS AN ALIEN WHO IS 23 UNLAWFULLY PRESENT IN THE UNITED STATES, A REASONABLE ATTEMPT SHALL BE MADE, 24 WHEN PRACTICABLE, TO DETERMINE THE IMMIGRATION STATUS OF THE PERSON. THE 25 PERSON'S IMMIGRATION STATUS SHALL BE VERIFIED WITH THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT 26 PURSUANT TO 8 UNITED STATES CODE SECTION 1373(c). (Seperate section) 3. CONFIRMING THE IDENTITY OF ANY PERSON WHO IS DETAINED. A. IN ADDITION TO ANY VIOLATION OF FEDERAL LAW, A PERSON IS GUILTY OF TRESPASSING IF THE PERSON IS BOTH: 1. PRESENT ON ANY PUBLIC OR PRIVATE LAND IN THIS STATE. 2. IN VIOLATION OF 8 UNITED STATES CODE SECTION 1304(e) OR 1306(a). --I can read this entire thing again, but to what avail. Nowhere in this thing does it say "if you are of a different ethnicity than caucasion we will arrest you and deport you" nor does it say "if the color of your skin is different than 'white folks' we will arrest you." As a matter of fact there isn't really anything in this bill directed towards any one group or all groups of minorities, more or less it is like an informational pamphlet of the already existing laws.

Dragoness Joined Wed 10/17/07 Posts: 23320	Mon 07/19/10 05:05 PM
FOR ANY LAWFUL CONTACT MADE BY A LAW ENFORCEMENT OFFICIAL OR AGENCY 21 OF THIS STATE OR A COUNTY, CITY, TOWN OR OTHER POLITICAL SUBDIVISION OF THIS 22 STATE WHERE REASONABLE SUSPICION EXISTS THAT THE PERSON IS AN ALIEN WHO IS 23 UNLAWFULLY PRESENT IN THE UNITED STATES, A REASONABLE ATTEMPT SHALL BE MADE, 24 WHEN PRACTICABLE, TO DETERMINE THE IMMIGRATION STATUS OF THE PERSON. THE 25 PERSON'S IMMIGRATION STATUS SHALL BE VERIFIED WITH THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT 26 PURSUANT TO 8 UNITED STATES CODE SECTION 1373(c). (Seperate section) 3. CONFIRMING THE IDENTITY OF ANY PERSON WHO IS DETAINED. A. IN ADDITION TO ANY VIOLATION OF FEDERAL LAW, A PERSON IS GUILTY OF TRESPASSING IF THE PERSON IS BOTH: 1. PRESENT ON ANY PUBLIC OR PRIVATE LAND IN THIS STATE. 2. IN VIOLATION OF 8 UNITED STATES CODE SECTION 1304(e) OR 1306(a). --I can read this entire thing again, but to what avail. Nowhere in this thing does it say "if you are of a different ethnicity than caucasion we will arrest you and deport you" nor does it say "if the color of your skin is different than 'white folks' we will arrest you." As a matter of fact there isn't really anything in this bill directed towards any one group or all groups of minorities, more or less it is like an informational pamphlet of the already existing laws. Sigh Give me patience please.... Okay...it does say "reasonable suspicion of being an alien", correct?] Tell me how you reasonably suspect a person of being an alien without being discriminatory or racially biased?

msharmony Joined Mon 08/31/09 Posts: 61041	Mon 07/19/10 05:05 PM
FOR ANY LAWFUL CONTACT MADE BY A LAW ENFORCEMENT OFFICIAL OR AGENCY 21 OF THIS STATE OR A COUNTY, CITY, TOWN OR OTHER POLITICAL SUBDIVISION OF THIS 22 STATE WHERE REASONABLE SUSPICION EXISTS THAT THE PERSON IS AN ALIEN WHO IS 23 UNLAWFULLY PRESENT IN THE UNITED STATES, A REASONABLE ATTEMPT SHALL BE MADE, 24 WHEN PRACTICABLE, TO DETERMINE THE IMMIGRATION STATUS OF THE PERSON. THE 25 PERSON'S IMMIGRATION STATUS SHALL BE VERIFIED WITH THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT 26 PURSUANT TO 8 UNITED STATES CODE SECTION 1373(c). (Seperate section) 3. CONFIRMING THE IDENTITY OF ANY PERSON WHO IS DETAINED. A. IN ADDITION TO ANY VIOLATION OF FEDERAL LAW, A PERSON IS GUILTY OF TRESPASSING IF THE PERSON IS BOTH: 1. PRESENT ON ANY PUBLIC OR PRIVATE LAND IN THIS STATE. 2. IN VIOLATION OF 8 UNITED STATES CODE SECTION 1304(e) OR 1306(a). --I can read this entire thing again, but to what avail. Nowhere in this thing does it say "if you are of a different ethnicity than caucasion we will arrest you and deport you" nor does it say "if the color of your skin is different than 'white folks' we will arrest you." As a matter of fact there isn't really anything in this bill directed towards any one group or all groups of minorities, more or less it is like an informational pamphlet of the already existing laws. I think the point of debate is about under what condition 'REASONABLE SUSPICION EXISTS THAT THE PERSON IS AN ALIEN WHO IS 23 UNLAWFULLY PRESENT IN THE UNITED STATES' its kind of like saying having a 'reasonable suspicion' that someone wasnt born in ohio,,,,citizenship is a question of paperwork, so how would one SUSPECT one didnt have papers,,,?

mightymoe Joined Sun 11/19/06 Posts: 37362	Mon 07/19/10 05:07 PM
If you knew as much as you think you do, you would realize that SB 1070 just reinforces the federal law at the state level. And once again, nowhere in the law does it say ANYTHING about race. I've read the bill in its entirety. True statement quoted. Okay so tell me how you "reasonably suspect" a person is an alien as written in the bill and not be discriminatory or racially biased? i think your thinking one dimensional here... if they pull someone over, what ever reason they have, they ask the question... why is that racist? Yea I am one dimensional ANTI RACIST ANTI DISCRIMINATORY. That is not what the law states. "Reasonable suspicion of being an alien" How do you reasonably suspect an alien on sight without being discriminatory or racially biased? you don't, you have to ask.. But the law says that police WILL BE DOING IT. That is a problem. asking is a problem?

Dragoness Joined Wed 10/17/07 Posts: 23320	Mon 07/19/10 05:10 PM
If you knew as much as you think you do, you would realize that SB 1070 just reinforces the federal law at the state level. And once again, nowhere in the law does it say ANYTHING about race. I've read the bill in its entirety. True statement quoted. Okay so tell me how you "reasonably suspect" a person is an alien as written in the bill and not be discriminatory or racially biased? i think your thinking one dimensional here... if they pull someone over, what ever reason they have, they ask the question... why is that racist? Yea I am one dimensional ANTI RACIST ANTI DISCRIMINATORY. That is not what the law states. "Reasonable suspicion of being an alien" How do you reasonably suspect an alien on sight without being discriminatory or racially biased? you don't, you have to ask.. But the law says that police WILL BE DOING IT. That is a problem. asking is a problem? Asking because they ask everyone would be no big deal. It is the method used to do the asking that is the problem. How do you "reasonably suspect a person is an alien to begin the process without being discriminatory or racially biased?

FearandLoathing Joined Fri 12/28/07 Posts: 30121	Mon 07/19/10 05:10 PM
FOR ANY LAWFUL CONTACT MADE BY A LAW ENFORCEMENT OFFICIAL OR AGENCY 21 OF THIS STATE OR A COUNTY, CITY, TOWN OR OTHER POLITICAL SUBDIVISION OF THIS 22 STATE WHERE REASONABLE SUSPICION EXISTS THAT THE PERSON IS AN ALIEN WHO IS 23 UNLAWFULLY PRESENT IN THE UNITED STATES, A REASONABLE ATTEMPT SHALL BE MADE, 24 WHEN PRACTICABLE, TO DETERMINE THE IMMIGRATION STATUS OF THE PERSON. THE 25 PERSON'S IMMIGRATION STATUS SHALL BE VERIFIED WITH THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT 26 PURSUANT TO 8 UNITED STATES CODE SECTION 1373(c). (Seperate section) 3. CONFIRMING THE IDENTITY OF ANY PERSON WHO IS DETAINED. A. IN ADDITION TO ANY VIOLATION OF FEDERAL LAW, A PERSON IS GUILTY OF TRESPASSING IF THE PERSON IS BOTH: 1. PRESENT ON ANY PUBLIC OR PRIVATE LAND IN THIS STATE. 2. IN VIOLATION OF 8 UNITED STATES CODE SECTION 1304(e) OR 1306(a). --I can read this entire thing again, but to what avail. Nowhere in this thing does it say "if you are of a different ethnicity than caucasion we will arrest you and deport you" nor does it say "if the color of your skin is different than 'white folks' we will arrest you." As a matter of fact there isn't really anything in this bill directed towards any one group or all groups of minorities, more or less it is like an informational pamphlet of the already existing laws. I think the point of debate is about under what condition 'REASONABLE SUSPICION EXISTS THAT THE PERSON IS AN ALIEN WHO IS 23 UNLAWFULLY PRESENT IN THE UNITED STATES' its kind of like saying having a 'reasonable suspicion' that someone wasnt born in ohio,,,,citizenship is a question of paperwork, so how would one SUSPECT one didnt have papers,,,? Oh, well, that is easy. You're both completly confusing what 'reasonable suspicion' in law enforcement means. Of course there are always going to be a few bad apples in a tree, but for the most part 'reasonable suspicion' is dictated by how the person acts or how they answer questions...or even by the documents they cannot present. 'Reasonable suspicion' does not mean, "oh, hey, look over there...he is a different color than me."

msharmony Joined Mon 08/31/09 Posts: 61041	Mon 07/19/10 05:14 PM Edited by msharmony on Mon 07/19/10 05:17 PM
FOR ANY LAWFUL CONTACT MADE BY A LAW ENFORCEMENT OFFICIAL OR AGENCY 21 OF THIS STATE OR A COUNTY, CITY, TOWN OR OTHER POLITICAL SUBDIVISION OF THIS 22 STATE WHERE REASONABLE SUSPICION EXISTS THAT THE PERSON IS AN ALIEN WHO IS 23 UNLAWFULLY PRESENT IN THE UNITED STATES, A REASONABLE ATTEMPT SHALL BE MADE, 24 WHEN PRACTICABLE, TO DETERMINE THE IMMIGRATION STATUS OF THE PERSON. THE 25 PERSON'S IMMIGRATION STATUS SHALL BE VERIFIED WITH THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT 26 PURSUANT TO 8 UNITED STATES CODE SECTION 1373(c). (Seperate section) 3. CONFIRMING THE IDENTITY OF ANY PERSON WHO IS DETAINED. A. IN ADDITION TO ANY VIOLATION OF FEDERAL LAW, A PERSON IS GUILTY OF TRESPASSING IF THE PERSON IS BOTH: 1. PRESENT ON ANY PUBLIC OR PRIVATE LAND IN THIS STATE. 2. IN VIOLATION OF 8 UNITED STATES CODE SECTION 1304(e) OR 1306(a). --I can read this entire thing again, but to what avail. Nowhere in this thing does it say "if you are of a different ethnicity than caucasion we will arrest you and deport you" nor does it say "if the color of your skin is different than 'white folks' we will arrest you." As a matter of fact there isn't really anything in this bill directed towards any one group or all groups of minorities, more or less it is like an informational pamphlet of the already existing laws. I think the point of debate is about under what condition 'REASONABLE SUSPICION EXISTS THAT THE PERSON IS AN ALIEN WHO IS 23 UNLAWFULLY PRESENT IN THE UNITED STATES' its kind of like saying having a 'reasonable suspicion' that someone wasnt born in ohio,,,,citizenship is a question of paperwork, so how would one SUSPECT one didnt have papers,,,? Oh, well, that is easy. You're both completly confusing what 'reasonable suspicion' in law enforcement means. Of course there are always going to be a few bad apples in a tree, but for the most part 'reasonable suspicion' is dictated by how the person acts or how they answer questions...or even by the documents they cannot present. 'Reasonable suspicion' does not mean, "oh, hey, look over there...he is a different color than me." but that is exactly the concern many have, because that has indeed constituted reasonable suspicion in other situations,,,historically,, now, I am believing for the best, I am not putting the cart before the horse with this bill, perhaps it will be carried out in a non discriminatory way,,,,,,but I dont blame people for being cautious about it,,

Dragoness Joined Wed 10/17/07 Posts: 23320	Mon 07/19/10 05:16 PM
FOR ANY LAWFUL CONTACT MADE BY A LAW ENFORCEMENT OFFICIAL OR AGENCY 21 OF THIS STATE OR A COUNTY, CITY, TOWN OR OTHER POLITICAL SUBDIVISION OF THIS 22 STATE WHERE REASONABLE SUSPICION EXISTS THAT THE PERSON IS AN ALIEN WHO IS 23 UNLAWFULLY PRESENT IN THE UNITED STATES, A REASONABLE ATTEMPT SHALL BE MADE, 24 WHEN PRACTICABLE, TO DETERMINE THE IMMIGRATION STATUS OF THE PERSON. THE 25 PERSON'S IMMIGRATION STATUS SHALL BE VERIFIED WITH THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT 26 PURSUANT TO 8 UNITED STATES CODE SECTION 1373(c). (Seperate section) 3. CONFIRMING THE IDENTITY OF ANY PERSON WHO IS DETAINED. A. IN ADDITION TO ANY VIOLATION OF FEDERAL LAW, A PERSON IS GUILTY OF TRESPASSING IF THE PERSON IS BOTH: 1. PRESENT ON ANY PUBLIC OR PRIVATE LAND IN THIS STATE. 2. IN VIOLATION OF 8 UNITED STATES CODE SECTION 1304(e) OR 1306(a). --I can read this entire thing again, but to what avail. Nowhere in this thing does it say "if you are of a different ethnicity than caucasion we will arrest you and deport you" nor does it say "if the color of your skin is different than 'white folks' we will arrest you." As a matter of fact there isn't really anything in this bill directed towards any one group or all groups of minorities, more or less it is like an informational pamphlet of the already existing laws. I think the point of debate is about under what condition 'REASONABLE SUSPICION EXISTS THAT THE PERSON IS AN ALIEN WHO IS 23 UNLAWFULLY PRESENT IN THE UNITED STATES' its kind of like saying having a 'reasonable suspicion' that someone wasnt born in ohio,,,,citizenship is a question of paperwork, so how would one SUSPECT one didnt have papers,,,? Oh, well, that is easy. You're both completly confusing what 'reasonable suspicion' in law enforcement means. Of course there are always going to be a few bad apples in a tree, but for the most part 'reasonable suspicion' is dictated by how the person acts or how they answer questions...or even by the documents they cannot present. 'Reasonable suspicion' does not mean, "oh, hey, look over there...he is a different color than me." That is not true. "Reasonable suspicion" is so vague it means all of the above and beyond. We cannot support a law that allows racially biased search and seizure based from a vague terminology that allows pretty much cart blanc. Sorry no human who stands up for human rights will go for that. It allows racism to have free reign again.

mightymoe Joined Sun 11/19/06 Posts: 37362	Mon 07/19/10 05:21 PM
If you knew as much as you think you do, you would realize that SB 1070 just reinforces the federal law at the state level. And once again, nowhere in the law does it say ANYTHING about race. I've read the bill in its entirety. True statement quoted. Okay so tell me how you "reasonably suspect" a person is an alien as written in the bill and not be discriminatory or racially biased? i think your thinking one dimensional here... if they pull someone over, what ever reason they have, they ask the question... why is that racist? Yea I am one dimensional ANTI RACIST ANTI DISCRIMINATORY. That is not what the law states. "Reasonable suspicion of being an alien" How do you reasonably suspect an alien on sight without being discriminatory or racially biased? you don't, you have to ask.. But the law says that police WILL BE DOING IT. That is a problem. asking is a problem? Asking because they ask everyone would be no big deal. It is the method used to do the asking that is the problem. How do you "reasonably suspect a person is an alien to begin the process without being discriminatory or racially biased? where does it say they are going to be pulling people over just to see if they are here illegally? i think it means it a police has reason to think that they might be here illegally, he can ask them. it's up to the individual officer , at his/her discretion.

mightymoe Joined Sun 11/19/06 Posts: 37362	Mon 07/19/10 05:24 PM
the courts are the one to ultimately decide weather the person is legal or not, not the police... the police just take them to the courts.

Dragoness Joined Wed 10/17/07 Posts: 23320	Mon 07/19/10 05:25 PM
If you knew as much as you think you do, you would realize that SB 1070 just reinforces the federal law at the state level. And once again, nowhere in the law does it say ANYTHING about race. I've read the bill in its entirety. True statement quoted. Okay so tell me how you "reasonably suspect" a person is an alien as written in the bill and not be discriminatory or racially biased? i think your thinking one dimensional here... if they pull someone over, what ever reason they have, they ask the question... why is that racist? Yea I am one dimensional ANTI RACIST ANTI DISCRIMINATORY. That is not what the law states. "Reasonable suspicion of being an alien" How do you reasonably suspect an alien on sight without being discriminatory or racially biased? you don't, you have to ask.. But the law says that police WILL BE DOING IT. That is a problem. asking is a problem? Asking because they ask everyone would be no big deal. It is the method used to do the asking that is the problem. How do you "reasonably suspect a person is an alien to begin the process without being discriminatory or racially biased? where does it say they are going to be pulling people over just to see if they are here illegally? i think it means it a police has reason to think that they might be here illegally, he can ask them. it's up to the individual officer , at his/her discretion. Individual discretion should never be allowed in sensitive situations like this. I know there are racists in the police force there in Arizona. How can they suspect them of being illegally here on sight without being discriminatory or racially biased?

msharmony Joined Mon 08/31/09 Posts: 61041	Mon 07/19/10 05:29 PM Edited by msharmony on Mon 07/19/10 05:30 PM
I know people will scream about the economy when we threaten 'free market' in any way,,but I still think the fairest way to deal with immigration is by ENFORCING the laws , especially with employers. Those who are hiring people without PROPER documentation(employers are required to report employment to the government and required to verify an applicants right to work with some legitimate documentation),,,,,these checks and balances are mandatory for EVERY person who wants to work for an employer and cant therefore be discriminatory. All the employers found employing illegal immigrants should be faced with a fine equal to the amount they would have had to pay an american worker for that time,,,that eliminates the employers motivation for hiring the illegal immigrant and that eliminates the illegal immigrants motivation for skipping over the laws and the borders to come here

mightymoe Joined Sun 11/19/06 Posts: 37362	Mon 07/19/10 05:30 PM
If you knew as much as you think you do, you would realize that SB 1070 just reinforces the federal law at the state level. And once again, nowhere in the law does it say ANYTHING about race. I've read the bill in its entirety. True statement quoted. Okay so tell me how you "reasonably suspect" a person is an alien as written in the bill and not be discriminatory or racially biased? i think your thinking one dimensional here... if they pull someone over, what ever reason they have, they ask the question... why is that racist? Yea I am one dimensional ANTI RACIST ANTI DISCRIMINATORY. That is not what the law states. "Reasonable suspicion of being an alien" How do you reasonably suspect an alien on sight without being discriminatory or racially biased? you don't, you have to ask.. But the law says that police WILL BE DOING IT. That is a problem. asking is a problem? Asking because they ask everyone would be no big deal. It is the method used to do the asking that is the problem. How do you "reasonably suspect a person is an alien to begin the process without being discriminatory or racially biased? where does it say they are going to be pulling people over just to see if they are here illegally? i think it means it a police has reason to think that they might be here illegally, he can ask them. it's up to the individual officer , at his/her discretion. Individual discretion should never be allowed in sensitive situations like this. I know there are racists in the police force there in Arizona. How can they suspect them of being illegally here on sight without being discriminatory or racially biased? if you think about it, thats what police do with any crimes... they make a descion, reasonable doubt, and they do what they think is best in that situation. it is really no different than solving any other crime. its just perimeters are broader.

mightymoe Joined Sun 11/19/06 Posts: 37362	Mon 07/19/10 05:33 PM
I know people will scream about the economy when we threaten 'free market' in any way,,but I still think the fairest way to deal with immigration is by ENFORCING the laws , especially with employers. Those who are hiring people without PROPER documentation(employers are required to report employment to the government and required to verify an applicants right to work with some legitimate documentation),,,,,these checks and balances are mandatory for EVERY person who wants to work for an employer and cant therefore be discriminatory. All the employers found employing illegal immigrants should be faced with a fine equal to the amount they would have had to pay an american worker for that time,,,that eliminates the employers motivation for hiring the illegal immigrant and that eliminates the illegal immigrants motivation for skipping over the laws and the borders to come here what if they have a fake SS number, as many of them do? do you still fine the owners?