I honestly cant believe some of the things i'm reading here. This war is winable, and we will and are doing so. ALL wars boil down to casualties. What army can beat the next. Its always been like that.

Let's be honest though here, how can EITHER side "win" when people get killed either way? Even if you "win" you still lose many innocent lives that didn't need to die.

Oh and also, we've been fighting this 9 years. That doesn't say much for us "winning" to me.

Vietnam left a bad taste in the mouths of many. When politicians dictate that you can't bomb a mosque because it is politically incorrect when the soldiers in the field see armed combatants running in and out of the building as a safe haven, ... there are issues and problems. The same concept holds true of schools and civilian areas.

In world war II, if a German town made arms, the town was blown off the face of the planet. Unlimited war has not been practiced since.

Do not take any of this as lack of support for our troops or their ability. If turned loose, they can win any war. I do not have as much confidence in our politicians.

I heard yesterday that China was given mineral mining rights to some areas of Afghanistan. They could only do so with stability paid for with our blood. It doesn't seem right.

At some point we have to ask "What is the GOAL of winning?" and "At what point does the cost exceed attaing the GOAL?"

It took a LOOONG time and the fortitude of people, at a grassroots level, to make U.S. citizens ask and answer those two questions before the government relinquished the mind set of "This war is winable and WE WILL and are doing so."

By 1975 it was finally admitted that whatever the GOAL once was, the Viet Nam war had far exceeded any cost/benefit ratio and the GOAL had become an ideology of pride and FOR ONCE this countries people saw through the propaganda and realized that inflicting human suffering is nothing to be proud of.

So what are the answers to those questions?

"What is the GOAL of winning?"

"At what point does the cost exceed attaing the GOAL?"

The article that John111 offered is quite interesting. Below are some quotes from that article.

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/06/14/world/asia/14minerals.html
By JAMES RISEN
Published: June 13, 2010



I think John111 was offering an alternative reason for the wars over oil. But I see it a bit differently.

It’s difficult to point to any war in history that was not fought with an underlying goal of gaining ‘resources’. In a previous post I suggested that the Goal of the U.S. is to root out fundamentalist theocracies – the purpose is to clear the way for globalization.

Through globalization underdeveloped countries will begin to prosper through industrialization as resources are more peacefully negotiated for. This clears the path for countries beyond industrialization to continue evolving their economy. As in the U.S. – we are no longer a nation of industry but of science, technology, and service.

Like other developed countries, we need new resources and industries to spring from those resources in order to meet the human need of our populations and thus our continued advancements.

The U.S. certainly stands to gain, as American owned (International Corporations) peacefully bid on the newly discovered resources and add growth to our own economy through capitalism. We also stand to gain when other countries, like China, build their industries and have much more to trade. Industrial growth of developing countries is a source of INEXPENSIVE trade for both necessities and luxuries.

So if the GOAL is actually to root out fundamentalist theocracies BEFORE they discover the magnitude of their power (in natural resources) would it not be better to say so – to openly challenge other countries to join in the fight? But I addressed that in one of my previous posts.

The problem with your logic is that the "War on Terror" is not a real war in which soldiers square off against each other. The "War On Terror" is both a propaganda campaign (to create the illusion of legitimacy) and an illegal, unconstitutional invasion of foreign nations.

I assure you sir, this "war" is NOT winnable as it is. If congress were to declare war (as they are duty-bound to), this would be a different.

All the Feds are doing now is peeing away money on attempting (badly) to oppress foreigners. It's just as absurd and barbaric as the Napoleonic Wars of conquest.

This isn't a 3d strategy computer game. Neither WWII.

And so which army are you talking about?

I don't see Afghan regulars or battleships, neither planes. Where are the tanks, where are the batallions, where are the commanders?

All I see is a bunch of peasants with soviet-era weapons and whatever they managed to grab from the US forces, which were left behind.

Just what is USA fighting?

I'll tell you what. Armed civilians. That's like shooting me or the guy next to me, who grabbed a gun.

Where is the glory and fame?

Kill the ones who hide an AK under their clothes and leave the unarmed alone?

Hmmm?

Or just kill them all, regardless ? Every time there is a local civilian killed by either UAVs or shot dead on the street, you gain 10 more enemies. Kill someone father, his whole family, friends and relatives will arm themselves and fight to the death.

You'd do the same.

I think it's obvious we won both the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan years ago.We invaded their country and totally over took all of their cites including their capital cities.Their leadership and Government has been replaced.The terrorist and the organization in those countries has been crushed into minority.The enemy has taken loses 100 times greater than ours.Dozens of the terrorist top leaders have been killed or captured.

In former Wars when you captured and controlled a capital city in that country you were fighting that was considered a victory.We have done that.There is always going to be a handful of terrorist shooting at American soldiers until the very end.

They lost we won.We came when we wanted,took over their countries,and we are leaving because we want to not,not because we are being forced to.We accomplished everything and the terrorist accomplished nothing.


For those people saying this is all about oil what are you smoking?Our Government does not run gas stations nor does it buy and sell oil on the market.Oil companies are private not federal.We have been in this War for over 9 years and in all that time have the oil companies been getting any more oil from Iraq?No.Has oil become cheaper?No.Is American companies running the oil companies in Iraq?No.If I was going to invade a country over oil I think I would invade Venezuela.It would be a easy country to take over and could probably be done in a few days.

This War is,was,and always has been about dealing with terrorism.Some of the most powerful and destructive terrorist were caught in Iran.That alone should speak volumes.

A lot of neoconservative talking points here, but no truth. How sad that people now accept brutal, unconstitutional invasions like Iraq/Afghanistan as "okay".

Damn that Irving Kristol for corrupting American politics!

The War was voted on by the House,Senate,and the United nations and all agreed to invade.It has also been voted to continue every year since it has started by the House and Senate.Leaders in Iraq,Pakistan and Afganistan have allowed the United states to continue the War.So exactly what excuse are you going to find for saying this War was illegal?

Read your Constitution. (article 1, section 8) See also Thomas Jefferson's and James Madison's writings on war. Just because a bunch of lying congress critters fund a war does not make it legal or just. You should also know that UN sanctions do not take precedence over Constitutional law. (if they did, a number of other countries in the mideast and Europe would be justified in starting war against the US, as the Feds have stationed troops all over the world without just cause)

Constitution-article 1, section 8

"To declare War, grant Letters of Marque and Reprisal, and make Rules concerning Captures on Land and Water;"

Heavenly I am not going to waste time posting voting records for the War.There is a reason not a single person has ever been tried,convicted,or even arrested for your so called illegal war and there never will be.

So, there has to be an arrest before something can be called a crime? Can I rape and kill your daughter and call it "casual sex" if I evade you? Your moral and intellectual compass on this are backwards, and your arguments are unfounded (and throughly refuted by the greatest American political philosophers).

It's nice that you can copy that section of the constitution. You'll also note that those powers are given to CONGRESS, not the president.

Whenever humans engage in war, all humans lose.

"There is no winner in war, just who is left." Not mine I believe it was a Dwight D Eisenhower quote.

Considering that the enemy is not centralized.

Terrorist are in every nation in the world.

Considering that the "help" we are giving is forced on a people.
That is not really help now is it?

Etc....

You get the picture though I am sure.

Actually for these "wars" because they were never actually called wars, these questions are unanswerable. The target is too vague and the exceeded cost was reached with the first life we took in Iraq, since it wasn't a country that had did anything to us.

Oh yes.. We are just now hearing about 4 trillion in mineral deposits thats in Aphgan.

Is the news now saying we have a way to pay for the war now.

But why do we hear about it 2 1/2 years after it was found? I wonder

share please



seriously I grew up in a Quaker Community outside of Philadelphia. Need I say more?

WARNING:

You certainly have some rich experiences, so don't just munch the popcorn - share the diversity of your opinions through the knowledge gained from your experiences. The philosophy/science forum and the general religion forum are particularly in need of some fresh perspective or at least some new topics.

And now, back to the 'popcorn'.

as is aften the case it is the accuser who is mistaken. My Quaker upbringing is not off topic as it is integral in my weltanschaung so to speak & therefore my opinion about the war is going to be influenced by the culture I grew up in. How much of that I wish to share remains, as always, my decision

where DID pancake guy go with the snacks?