amen sister!

uh...amen sister..

damn...I hate it when I have to agree w/ a christian...

religions absolutely needs to be discarded.

With religion you get pedophiles who are shielded from prosecution, Fables almost forced into Science classes, people denied rights because of those fables, and planes flown into buildings..

If one believes that any day now the rapture is going to happen, what reason is there to make the world a better place?

because, not EVERYONE with religion believes those things and even some of those WITHOUT religion do,,,,

criminals are shielded everyday because of family ties and politics(with or without religion)

Science classes stick to what is scientific( not fables)

People are denied rights because of CULTURAL values(with or without religion) everyday as well

planes are not the only things flown into buildings,,,bombs are dropped and bullets fly in the name of politics, power, and greed regularly(with or without religion)its individual perception and not religion,,,,,


I believe the rapture could come anyday and I also believe it is important to do good everyday, because its the right thing, and because the Good book instructs it of us

I am no different than my atheist friends in how I live and treat others, I just believe something different about my purpose and my mortality,,,

because, not EVERYONE with religion believes those things and even some of those WITHOUT religion do,,,,

And yet, those who do believe don't do enough to stop it, and will even defend the extremists.



Not on the scale of the Catholic church..



Yes, because the Creationist have gone to court twice to try to force their way into the Science classroom, and (thankfully) have lost both times.



Really? I'd love to hear a CULTURAL reason for a ban on gay marriage




The "good" book that also instructs you to kill anyone who works on the sabbath? The same one that carries instructions on selling your daughter into sex slavery? The same good book that tells you to kill anyone who denies the holy spirit?



No different, except for believing in fairy tales that some goat herders threw together after ripping off other, earlier goat herders.

And yet, those who do believe don't do enough to stop it, and will even defend the extremists.



Not on the scale of the Catholic church..



Yes, because the Creationist have gone to court twice to try to force their way into the Science classroom, and (thankfully) have lost both times.



Really? I'd love to hear a CULTURAL reason for a ban on gay marriage




The "good" book that also instructs you to kill anyone who works on the sabbath? The same one that carries instructions on selling your daughter into sex slavery? The same good book that tells you to kill anyone who denies the holy spirit?



No different, except for believing in fairy tales that some goat herders threw together after ripping off other, earlier goat herders.



your views are, naturally, very subjective to your standards,,

('dont do enough', 'not on the same scale', 'believe in fairy tales')

I submit, that my opinion , is that people with and without religion probahly dont do ENOUGH to make the world better, that people who are greedy and selfish and powerful protect their own when their own is based in religion on the SAME scale that they protect their own when their own is based in income, or race, or status, or gender,,,etc,,,

that a story passed on from tax accountants, interpreters, and even shepherders is no less reliable than stories passed on by those in power to stay in power

and to suggest that a distaste of homosexual relationships is a monopoly held by the religious is just as intellectually dishonest as 'blaming' peoples views of incest or pedophilia on a book instead of a culture ,,,unless you believe as many apparently do that all or even most of those non religious people take no issue at all with homosexual relationships

it seems as if you are reading with a strictly antagonist approach,, but it matters not if someone does good because they believe in a fairy or because they believe in nothing but good,,,people of all beliefs have those amongst them who will be hateful and hurtful and those who will be helpful,,,,religion is just the easy scapegoat,,,,for those who choose not to believe in it ,,,


proposing religion be banned because those with religion are somehow less moral is just as bigoted as me trying to propose that religion be mandated because the non religious hold no moral base(and just as untrue)

Yet, the easiest way to draw a line, or even kill people is to kill people who don't believe as you do.. All the "holy" books have at least once passage instructing the death of non-believers.

Of course, if you actually look at the ACTUAL morality found in the holy books you will find a morality much different from today.. it changes over time, and like everything else in Christianity, it stole it from something else and "made" it it's own.



All the more reason to not believe something that is only in a book.



Ok then, give me a NON-religious argument against Gay Marriage, I won't hold my breath.



To quote Steven Weinberg, "With or without religion, you have good people doing good things, and evil people doing evil things, but for good people to do evil things, that takes takes religion."



My problem with religion is that it is given a pedestal that it does not deserve. It cannot be questioned, like a play or a call in a sporting event.. It should be. It teaches people to be ignorant. It claims to have the moral high ground, where outside of Chicago Politics, nothing is more corrupt.. It is the last socially acceptable segregation. It is arrogant, claiming to have the answers that Science doesn't, even after Science (and Mathematics) have proven it to be wrong time and time again.

beliefs arent all founded in religion, and people DO kill because others dont believe as they do,,,whether religion is involved or not

the morality in the bible,, the TEN COMMANDMENTS specifically tells me NOT TO KILL,,,although there are examples given of people not following that commandment

give me a non religious argument against incest,, or against a twenty year old with an 15 year old? ...(other than the law)

cultural values separate on the same scale as religious ones

for good people to do evil things does not take religion,,thats quite an inane leap of logic to even suggest

the people who give a pedestal to religion are those who are religious,,just as those who give a pedestal to patriotism are patriots,,,,,,or those who give a pedestal to class are classist

people who arent religious certainly have on these threads held themself up on some intellectual pedestal because of it,,,,,,this is a statement of logic that is not exclusive to religion,


if one doesnt believe,, thats fine,, it doesnt make them better than one who does,, nor vice versa

the indisputable truth is that there is no verifiable proof that religion is anymore the root of immorality than there is that atheism or agnosticism are,,,


science has not disproven religion anymore than religion disproves science,, they are different theories with different standard

Yeah, it's called a Holy War
Really? I'm still waiting for that Republican to kill the Democrat for being a democrat.



Yet, God himself goes on to kill (literally) countless people. Real loving guy, that hypocrite.
10 Commandments, 2 are actual laws(the not killing, the not stealing) No mention of rape, which I would say is pretty bad. There are a number of laws, that are in place for good reasons, that have no mention in the buy bull, or any other holy book.



Because Human Morals have evolved to a point where we don't view incest or possible Adult relationships with minors as a good thing. Not to mention how incest ****s up future generations...

By the way, that non-religious argument against gay marriage? Still waiting for it.



Really? So selling your daughter to slavery is a good thing, because it's in the bible? Offering your daughter for rape is good? Killing her as a sacrifice is good?



Not really. The 9/11 hijackers viewed themselves as good people, killing innocent people seems pretty evil to me. Priests view themselves as good people.. yet they **** little kids, again, not really in my view of good.



I don't care about who gives it the pedestal, it still is undeserved. Religion preaches ignorance, and segregation, as well as not being true to oneself. I fail to see anything deserving in that.



You trust the buy bull, I'll continue to trust the people in lab coats who don't make me get up early on Sunday (or whatever your chosen "holy" day is) and apologize for being human.




Yes it does. Especially, when those believers admit that the only thing stopping them from doing evil things is the threat of hell..
I can be good for the sake of being good..



There are a number of things wrong in this section. First Religion itself is immoral, studies have been done, when the stories are taken out of the bible as is, people call them moral, when they change the names and "update" them, people call the actions of the "good" guys immoral. That is a pretty big blow.
Second, Agnostic is an adjective, and not a stance.. "Atheism"= Without (a) Belief(theism) Agnosticism= Without (a) Knowledge (gnosticism) One can be an Agnostic Theism (an unknowing believer), a Gnostic Theist(Knowing Believer), an Agnostic Atheist (Unknowing disbeliever), and a Gnostic Atheist(Knowing Believer)




Let see, just off the top of my head there is: the Flat Earth (Kuran, iirc) Geocentric solar system, Pi(the bible, in a round about way states that Pi=3)Evolution, the Age of the Earth...

Religion is sooooo on it's way out. The great "falling away" is much closer than people realize. Only this time it will be drastic...mankind is becoming aware of the huge error of organized religion, and how it has not served us. It will be sad for many, and confusing, in the end we will all benefit from it. Even those who feel their religion is their life will understand with time.
We are finally going to evolve to the point of true spirituality....
it's a great time to be on the planet!!!

there is so much misinformation here it isnt funny,,,


Because Human Morals have evolved to a point where we don't view incest or possible Adult relationships with minors as a good thing. Not to mention how incest ****s up future generations...

how about we replace incest and adult relationships with homosexuality,, it is no less or more a valid 'non religious' argument

so here is the statement as applied non religiously to homosexuality
"Because Human Morals have evolved to a point where we don't view homosexual relationships as a good thing. Not to mention how homosexual relationships ****s up or END future generations... "


I have not nor have fellow christians I know ever said they 'only' did good things to stop from going to hell

before I ever read a bible or went to a church, I knew right from wrong,, my parents taught me,, I avoided wrong because I wanted to be a 'good' person ,,not because of the Bible,, but the Bible reinforced what my conscious and my parents already taught me about right and wrong..



the bible doesnt define pi , as pi wasnt created during that period

God killing is not the same as human killing, but that discussion is best left between believers who understand the different authority and responsibility of God to human beings ,, the comparison is like comparing cold blooded murder to war or self defense


if you want to take ALL the people who have religion and discard ALL the good things they do to focus on the exceptions who do bad,,lets do that with all topics,, lets do it with discipline(people abuse it to hurt others),,,,lets do it with american history(figures are portrayed as heroes although they participated in killing and robbing from others), as a matter of fact, think about it this way,,,,if you were a teacher with BILLIONS of students and a million didnt get the point,, would you accept having your teachings BANNED?

the standards and reasons people continue to give to ban religion just dont hold water when applied equally to all the other 'beliefs' and 'values' held in the world


we will always have good and bad, whatever we wish to blame it on

So, you're "Non-religious" argument against gay marriage/homosexuality is that it is immoral...

Well congrats..you just gave me the Christian/biblical reasoning for not allowing it. Way to read the bible.. It's 1 Corinthians6:9;10, in case you were wondering.



Theists with Bronze age beliefs haven't evolved to allow people to live without forcing their beliefs on others.
Humanists like myself have evolved to the point where we don't need a book to tell us what is good or bad, and to be able to grant everybody an equal set of rights.

Ultimately, since Homosexuality occurs in nature, your attempted point fails. There is some evolutionary benefit to homosexuality, since it does occur in nature.




Well than congrats. Because I have, a number of your "brothers and sisters in christ" would kill me, without second thought, if it wasn't in the 10 commandments that "thou shall not kill" Luckily for me they haven't got to the part about killing the heathen yet.





1 Kings 7:23 (KJV) And he made a molten sea, ten cubits from the one brim to the other: it was round all about, and his height was five cubits: and a line of thirty cubits did compass it round about.

Math tells us that Pi is the ratio of the circumference to the diameter of a circle. 1 Kings 23 gives us the equation 30/10, which equals 3. So, again, why to know your bible.



So, God is Richard Nixon, and I can't understand because I chose rationality of bronze age myths?
So, would you say that a tyrant locking away murders while killing thousands of his own people is a bad thing? I do, all it does is make the tyrant a hypocrite, and hypocrites don't deserve any form of worship.




We used to have something like that.. It was called the Dark Ages... Thankfully for us, Science overcame it.



Take a closer look. It is Religion's cup that is empty. Science got us to the moon. Religion flew planes into buildings.

it is odd someone who self proclaims such intelligence does not seem able to grasp the subjectiveness of their arguments and how they can be applied to ANYTHING because they call for giant ASSUMPTIONS and leaps of faith, based on a very persistent minority of a whole group

ASSUMPTION:
Well than congrats. Because I have, a number of your "brothers and sisters in christ" would kill me, without second thought, if it wasn't in the 10 commandments that "thou shall not kill" (really, are you a mind reader?)

LEAP OF LOGIC:
Ultimately, since Homosexuality occurs in nature....( if this is in response to the logic of it being accepted,,,incest occurs in nature as well as cannibalism and quite obviously there are no biological age mandates in nature as animals base their instincts upon scent and when a female is old enough to have heat,, she is old enough to mount,,,,so your point is kind of lacking in consistency actually)

the question was asked to give a non religous reason against homosexuality,,,and I asked in return to give a non religious reason against incest or 'pedophilia' ,,I only used YOUR reason and replaced the so called offenses with the so called offense of homosexuality , so if your answer was non religious , why wasnt mine?

the dark ages is ONE brief period within the existence of mankind and that is the best example one can come up with while trying to discredit ALL of religion?

there was a time in England when those with faith were persecuted (I think it was those same persecuted people of faith that are partially responsible for me being able to live in a country where YOU can choose not to believe and I can choose to believe)

there was a time when women were looked down upon and EXPECTED to look after their kids(it wasnt officially given a name,,but we all know it happened ),,,,more modern culture has stopped these expectations so that women have worked,,,

so would you therefore BAN a womans choice to be a housemom?


tell me,, If a woman looks after her kids and does not work outside the home because she feels thats what she WANTS or because she believes it is her cultural responsibility or because she believes in a religious doctrine,,,,,WHAT difference will it make to anyone else what justification she made with herself so long as she takes care of her kids? and is a military wife grieving any more or less when she loses her husband to a gunshot(by someone doing their patriotic duty) than an urban wife who loses her husband to a stray bullet(by someone with a grudge).....peoples reasons are personal and there to get them through their lives,, their ACTIONS are what usually count to others...

as I have said before, people of faith number in the BILLIONS and if even five percent of them were any less moral than those of no faith,, Id love to see it proven,,,,


I could go on and on with the irrelevance of the arguments towards the proposal to ban religion,, but it seems you just keep repeating the same things over and over without truly reading the responses for comprehension..



most simply put,,,,if one doesnt want religion, they can choose not to have it

I will keep mine tyvm

'good' and 'bad' people have and always will be around, its human nature if someone helps the homeless because they think a fairy will visit them or because they think they will become homeless if they dont or because they have been homeless before,,I really wouldnt care so long as they were helping

Is it anymore condescending for a non believer to tell a believer they need to be ENLIGHTENED than it is for a believer to? IN the end, a persons soul and their beliefs about it are their business and do not aversely affect anyone. Not until people ACT do their actions get counted and then they should be counted towards the character of THOSE people and not Everyone who holds similar beliefs...

from merriam webster,,,(other things agnostic and atheist mean)


Agnostic
1 : a person who holds the view that any ultimate reality (as God) is unknown and probably unknowable; broadly : one who is not committed to believing in either the existence or the nonexistence of God or a god
2 : a person unwilling to commit to an opinion about something

Atheist

: one who believes that there is no deity

It does not take the ability to read minds when people actually SAY these things to someone.. So Nice assumption that I made an assumption. You are wrong.



There was a time in human history when incest was accepted (many families in Ancient Rome "kept it in the family" because they started viewing everyone else as unclean.

Science tells us that within a few generations, of incest the child is going to have a whole list of problems, and survival will be difficult.



Because the reason you gave IS listed in the Bible. I even gave you the EXACT place you can find it in the bible.
Honestly, I fail to see how it's a leap of logic on my part, when you are the one denying rights to an entire group of people, because of what bronze age goat herders.
the dark ages is ONE brief period within the existence of mankind and that is the best example one can come up with while trying to discredit ALL of religion?




Because we don't get our morals from religion. I've listed a number of things that the bible tell us is good and moral, you have chosen to ignore each of those example.


[qoute]'good' and 'bad' people have and always will be around, its human nature if someone helps the homeless because they think a fairy will visit them or because they think they will become homeless if they dont or because they have been homeless before,,I really wouldnt care so long as they were helping

If they are helping the homeless because of a fairy, or because of the threat of hell, it really isn't good. Doing something out of fear of punishment is coercion. As I've said before there are many examples of religious people, who are considered good, doing really evil things, and for that to happen it takes religion.



Please, provide the quote.



So, if a person's beliefs should be kept to themselves, why ban gay marriage based solely on religious grounds? That is forcing your beliefs on others, is it not?

sigh,,,,ok

lets do one more tit for tat and then just agree to believe what we choose to believe

1.Because the reason you gave IS listed in the Bible. I even gave you the EXACT place you can find it in the bible.

A. REALLY?!! because all I did was LITERALLY COPY your answer and replace three or four words,,,was your answer in the bible ? because you really didnt give me the chapter and verse if so...

2. Because we don't get our morals from religion. I've listed a number of things that the bible tell us is good and moral, you have chosen to ignore each of those example.

A. I dont get my Morals from religion either, I already had morals instilled in me before my RELIGION reinforced them. You have posted things that were in the bible,,but possibly because you are a non believe,,,,you take it all as COMMANDMENTS from God. I have not ignored them, I have just read them in a different context than you did (as biblical history of mans laws and habits in biblical times) and I have referred instead to the direct COMMANDMENTS from God.


3.If they are helping the homeless because of a fairy, or because of the threat of hell, it really isn't good.

A. Really?!! I am sure you would feel quite differently if you were one of those homeless being helped.

4.Doing something out of fear of punishment is coercion. As I've said before there are many examples of religious people, who are considered good, doing really evil things, and for that to happen it takes religion.

A. Another intellectually dishonest assertion. First, because many times people(both religious and non) make decisions from their heart because it is what feels right to their consciense. Second, because many times people(both religious and non) make decisions because somewhere along the line they learned of negative CONSEQUENCES (either natural or man made) to doing otherwise. If I study hard because I WANT to go to Harvard and I dont want to have to go to community college,,,that is a preference and not coercion. If I choose to follow Gods word because I want to be with my Father in heaven and I dont want to be left behind,,, that is also a preference.

I do tire of the non believers insistence on knowing what motivates believers in their actions. I dont do good things because Im scared of punishment anymore than a non religious person does,, I do them because I learned from MANY sources that they were good things(only one of those sources being biblical)


5. So, if a person's beliefs should be kept to themselves, why ban gay marriage based solely on religious grounds? That is forcing your beliefs on others, is it not?

A. Quite the opposite,, marriage is not a right but a privilege. And laws and privileges always come with CONDITIONS. In marriage, the conditions decided upon were that people not be siblings,, that they be a certain age, and that they be not the same gender. I have still to be supplied the non religious reasons it was decided that siblings cant marry,,,,,,,other than the cultural belief about how the children turn out ,,,,,,read a little about incest and you will be surprised to learn how rarely those things actually happen amongst siblings who fall in love,,,,but I still wouldnt support that type of marriage either,,,,if the law mandated one or the other get 'fixed', I wouldnt support that marriage, and if the argument is how the children will turn out after GENERATIONS of incest,, the same can be made about how they turn out after GENERATIONS of homosexuality(oh wait, its impossible for the generation to continue after a homosexual relationship,,,isnt it?


6. It does not take the ability to read minds when people actually SAY these things to someone.. So Nice assumption that I made an assumption. You are wrong.


My mistake. I apologize for the assumption(something most non believers in these forums never do). I apologize for your experience too. But to lump all religious in with people like those who say such things would be like me lumping all american 'patriots' in with those who say things like that they would have the president suck on a machine gun. Individuals will come with various character flaws which religion or patriotism or any other strong set of beliefs can enflame. Very similar to the way some people with diabetes can aversely affected when given an amount of sugar that does no harm to others,,,but I wouldnt ban sugar because of it.


definition 2 of religion from merriam webster :
2 : a personal set or institutionalized system of religious attitudes, beliefs, and practices

to ban what people can believe and their choice to congregate with others who believe similarly is not only quite an impossible ban to enforce but rather imposing, and over stretching,,



Bottom line dude, I will respect your decision not to believe in God and to believe what ever it is you believe about why things are right or wrong or about how the world was created, or about what the spiritual truth is,,,,,,,but banning religion wont solve anything anymore than banning national boundaries or patriotism....humans will kill each other and humans will love each other and whatever groups we throw them in,,,this will NOT change

interesting thread.

For one, yes religions should be banned and or removed. A religion is a "BELIEF" in a God(s).

But on the same note, the religion christianity is actually not a religion. Christianity is as real as you and I. Just look at it, you can see it's truth all around you. What it says will happen is happening. also keep in mind when this was wrote these things WILL happen was a couple thousand years ago, people killing people for no reason, increase in theft, sexual immoralities, increase of people denying the lord, and much more. This was said to happen over 2 thousand years ago. To see just how marvelouse this is you have to put yourself in their shoes, at life wasn't the same then as it is now, so in turn this could not have just been a lucky guess. So if it wasn't a lucky guess, how was all this known before it happened? You find the answere to this question and you have found the answere to ever lasting paradise.

The words that your replaced were the subject, which does change everything quite a bit. Like I said, earlier, I even gave you the exact place in the bible where it is listed.. It's very telling that you don't know the book you claim to live by.



Well, we agree that morals to not come from religion, but religion time and time again claims that they have the moral high ground, and time and time again that is proven to be false.
Again with the Commandments, seems silly, to me, for a supposedly supreme being to have a list of 10 things we can't do, where only 2 of them are actual laws, and most are just re-wordings of other commandments.




Doing something out of fear is not the same as doing something because you feel like it.



It is not intellectually dishonest. "Do this, or be cast into the fire of hell forever" IS Coercion. Not only is it coercion, it's manipulation. All you need is the threat of danger, whether that danger is real, or imaginary, to get people to do what you want.



The problem is that MANY believers have mentioned that the only reason they are good is because of the threat of hell.




Last time I checked, Homosexuals are people, just like you and me. Therefore they should be granted the SAME rights that you and me enjoy. Now, whether you like it or not the "conditions" given to marriage are from religion. Again, there is obviously an evolutionary benefit to homosexuality since it occurs in nature.

"Now, whether you like it or not the "conditions" given to marriage are from religion. Again, there is obviously an evolutionary benefit to homosexuality since it occurs in nature."



wow,,thats some PROOF,,,,there is also an evolutionary benefit to infanticide, incest, and cannibalism as well if all that is required is that it occurs in nature,,,,,shall we EVOLVE to the point of cavalierly dismissing or supporting those things for Humans as well?



"The words that your replaced were the subject, which does change everything quite a bit. "



really? and can you explain why ?....more astounding PROOF


dude, bottom line is this,, you have alot of OPINIONS,, thats fine, we all do. But even though I repeat till Im blue in the face, that my morals come from the same place as most non religious(namely my conscience) and that my religion only REINFORCES those morals I have ,,,

some will continue to insist that Religion is the reason people do evil things and

and some will continue to imply that the religious have some monopoly on such evil that is somehow comparatively less amongst the non religious,

and some will continue to insist their expert knowledge or superior evolution is a more valid foundation for being good than faith in something greater


and some will continue to insist that the religious are morally inferior because they must do good only out of some "FEAR" and not from their hearts,,,

these are accusations, though, that will continue to not have much proof (although, when the religious number in the BILLIIONS, people could make a rather long list of exceptions that would seem to prove some rule but would still only be an exception)

so I will repeat again (although I am sure it will go ignored)

.....I will not MANDATE what anyone else should believe or who they can congregate with in studying or supporting those beliefs,,,,and I believe anyone who would even suggest doing so is guilty of the overreaching pompous moral ground they so often accuse the religious of taking,,,

I've read both of Harris' books. The guy is a lunatic. He actually (not overtly but it's in "The End of Faith") advocates for a pre-emptive nuclear strike on the Muslim world. Really tugs at the heartstrings, this guy. Dawkins and Hitchens make much more sensible arguments than he does.

The way I've always looked at religion is this: When people think they have the answers (which religion claims to provide) they stop looking for them. The human race stagnates as a result. Not to mention, when people think they're right, they also tend to think they are superior, and hence we inevitably get things like the Inquisition and fundamentalists.

I'm not saying religion should be ditched, but there are superior ways of dealing with mysteries of life. Just as science can't provide all the answers, religion alone is not a solution to anything. If humanity can stop bickering over ridiculous notions and slay the monster of pride, maybe then we can all find the happy medium that satisfies everyone and gives us the answers we so desperately seek.