Anyhow, I love you all, male and female,, I hope we will always live in a place where what we want or think are not grounds to be imprisoned or persecuted.

I think you are expanding correlation into causation,, a common occurence during debate.

Its like saying, as far back as I can remember , I have been right handed,, so I must have been born that way. When in fact,, there are cultures which teach left handed children to use their right hand,, so whether or not they remember being left handed would not prove definitively that they were ALWAYS left handed.

Anyway, at this point, we can agree to disagree. You were born Straight, I was not born with sexual feelings but I developed attraction later on in life to males and females. Not everyone gay was born gay anymore than everyone celibate was born with NO desires.

you mean homosexuals aren't already imprisoned (mentally and socially)

did you ever hear of the rule in government to government relations that goes : never throw stones when you live in a glass house . and your windows are dirty .

well gosh, then we would have to free all the thieves murderers and druggies currently behind bars,,,,wouldnt that be kind of chaotic?

Arent we all... in some shape or form we all have challenges (Either self inflicted or otherwise) to overcome. Society will find some too unattractive, too poor, too skinny, too fat,,etc,,, I think noone has a life of choices that have no public stigma attached to them. Those who go to church, will be seen by some as sepratists or supremacists. Those who dont will be seen by some as without moral compass. Those who live together but dont marry will be seen as loose. Those who marry but dont provide for their family or stick out abuse will be seen as morally unfaithful,, and the list goes on and on.

Not an analogy of the same thing at all.

You do not disagree with me, you disagree with the homosexual friends I have.

I am sure they would be able to defend their stance a whole lot better if they were inclined to bother with it.

They don't defend themselves because they don't want to rehash the bull **** they already put up with from people who think they had a choice to be not gay.

that is not a valid analogy either.

but how do your friends know that someone elses experience is INCORRECT because it is different than theirs? why is the ONLY way people can be gay by birth? It seems like your friends would be doing the same thing you accuse me of , and dismissing the experience that comes from some other 'horses mouth'.

Analogy,,Not remembering something to ever be different doesnt mean it never was,,, VERY RELEVANT

The only stigma even close to similar to the homosexual problem is the black people history of abuse around the world. Although I don't think that they were killing black folks on sight but it came damn close and homosexuals face this issue daily.

I think the dont strow thones phrase was not having to do with government as much as it was personal behavior but they were linked in the post so I made the analogy.

When it comes to personal behavior, I dont feel that discussing beliefs about right, wrong, appropriate, inappropriate, or whatever is throwing stones if it is a general conversation and not a personal persecution of anyone.

When it comes to government , there is a duty to set laws in order to keep order. My point is that , when it comes to laws, we dont discard them because the ones setting them might break them.

I disagree, but this is another matter of personal observation and judgement. I think FAT people are plenty stigmatized in our society as are poor people. I think plenty of black folks have been killed 'on sight' as you say. IN fact, I had a huge run in with a guy boasting about how he was gonna go GAY Bashing one night and you could have easily put the n word in place of Gay to get the same reaction from me. To compare bigotry is a slippery slope. But I stand by my original point, that there are all types of stigma in this world and more than homosexuals feel it.

I guess they have yet to experience someone who says it was a choice and not as far back as they can remember (born).

When they do they will tell me then I will have to believe that also. Considering the denial of gay or lesbian tendencies because of the stigma, most gay or lesbians have to sort through what they have denied all their life to get back to when they first felt attraction for the same sex and most once they do find that they were attracted as far back as they can remember.

This is also the reason that you have the issue of gays getting caught up in hetero relationships and "later" deciding they are not hetero. They were gay all their lives but because of the pressure of society they either denied their desires or did it on the DL and had the show family for the world to see.

Terrible way to live because of the stupidity of society, wouldn't you say? But most of it comes from religions. You can not teach out of one side of your mouth about the horridity of homosexuality and out of the other side of your mouth say "but I don't hold any judgement". It doesn't work like that.

If they say that as far back as they can remember does mean that.

So your analogy of being taught different doesn't work for sexuality. They may live in denial of their desires but they do not unlearn it.

Most not to the same degree.

And as long as religion exists their troubles will never end.

Well, I dont use the word HORRID. I do hold to a standard of sexual conduct, IDEALISTICALLy , between husband and wife but in liue of marriage, within a commitment. I hold to my standards regarding relatives and children and same sex,, but that judgment doesnt make me treat people diferently.

Really? What show is more popular,, queer eye for the straight guy or dance off the pounds? I think 'gay' has become alot less stigmatized than fat. But as I said, it will be a matter of personal perception,,no right or wrong.

Preferences are indeed learned, because there has to be A choice there to have a preference. ONe might have made one choice at one time and decide differently later. It is not HARDWIRED, no choice is. Everything can be affected by environment, education, and nurturing.