Life is a process. It has many facets. Its a designator of complex interactions meet reproduction.

...Precisely, but not only that:
*** According to the Law of Probability, even a totally chaotic system, given sufficient time, may accidentally produce an ordered system!

As I mentioned back at the 2:30AM post (page 1),
-- without any intervention from outside!!!

However, having said that, the possibility of a designer is mighty attractive, considering the beauty of the "system" (even though such an idea rezembles that of our forefathers, who just couldn't comprehend "Who turns the light in the sky off every night ? ? ?

What is this "law of probability?"

my guess is that due to chaos being extremely random, simply by chance, over a long time (or a short one) even a system of complete and total chaos, would, because of the nature of chaos, all at once spring into an ordered system.
It's just the inverse of the second law of thermodynamics. Because the second law of thermodynamics reads "Entropy is always on the increase in any open system." The opposite must also be occasionally true.

Actually, how is that illogical?

I'm not a believer of the big bang theory, but order from chaos is how history generally works. For example:

Agriculture helped bring humans to cilivlization.

The fall of Contstantinopal (sp?) (now Instanbul) helped get the west out of the chaos of the middle ages.

Now, maybe the theory is too humanized. Maybe we're basing it too much off of our own history. But I can see how logically if everything is an accident that stemmed from the big bang, wouldn't even human history follow a similar path?

Just to be the devil's advocit. lol

Me, I'm a believer in Creation/Intellegent Design/Adaption. B)

for every action ..there is an equal and opposite reaction..in every thing..why wouldnt it stand to reason?
a star explodes creating a chaotic mess,
in that mess the building blocks of life.,
possite and negative atoms attract making bigger masses, the bigger the mass the more gravity..the more gravity the more the pull....mathmatics...very logical

I have the idea that in order for chaos to become orderly, there must be intelligence involved at some stage even if it is in the design structure of the elements.

We, non-spiritual atheists, can answer our "why"-s nicely, but we are flabbergasted when we face your "why"-s. We are unable to handle your question, let alone answer it.

Any attempt of our answering your "why"-s is futile, and results in 68-page-long topics. It's like a zebra asking a lion why grass tastes so good.

I don't want you to convince me, I just want to know what your "why" is and why it convinces you.

I would take you up on that, but your offer is not reciprocated inasmuch as you force us into explaining our stances, and in a funnily passive way you're attempting to convince us.

Aside from that, you seek different things for the answer to "why". You seek a purpose, a reason. I am quite convinced there is no purpose or reason behind the phenomenon, only causes.

Purpose and reason are a type of cause, but there are other types of cause, not just purpose and reason. Furthermore, in my belief system it is not necessary at all for any system (in fact, it is highly improbable) to have purpose or reason. There is no evidence for it, which cannot be explained by causes other than reason or purpose. In fact, it is a highly suspicious explanation for any phenomenon for atheists like me when someone introduces the concept of "reason" or "purpose" in trying to explain a phenomenon. This is a fundamental, unbridgeable difference.

We can argue this until we're blue in the face. I would regard that as a totally futile argument, because our domains, our realm of movement (movement of the acceptable concepts and the necessarily existing concepts) would be on completely different planes, different axes.

Again. Even a shark can't explain to a kitten how breathing underwater is done. Despite the best efforts of the lecturer and the listener.

Wux saidJust for my own edification, how does something like this fit into your world view:

“I have a purpose of going to the store. My reason for that purpose is to get something to eat.”

I’m not wanting to debate it, just wanting to understand you viewpoint.

ok..ok here you go....here is the reason...

S#|T happens...thats it...simple huh?

You and Sky stand up for each other nicely. I am happy for you, I wish I had someone like that. I've actually never had that experience in my adulthood until very recently, with my brother. The women in my life, we just screwed each other, basically. For different lengths of time -- any length from a day to fifteen years in the dating. But to stand up for each other? No, never.

It is a sweet feeling. It is more than a feeling. Some have it, some don't. I don't.

I think Sky and my beliefs are very similar. I don't think we always agree but we are very close in our belief system. It may appear that we "stand up for each other" because of that.

To find "purpose" in your life is indeed a challenge. I have thought about it often, and asked myself .. What is my purpose?

I think purpose is a personal thing. You have to pay attention to what it is you really have a passion for and follow that passion. There you will find your purpose. As long as you follow your bliss, you will be finding purpose in your life.

I think purpose is to be happy and fulfilled and to learn to be creative. I find my bliss when I am designing and being creative, doing art, writing, building websites, etc.

Do what you love and that is your purpose.

Don't sweat the small stuff or worry over the big stuff.

Thanks, Jeanny, for your encouraging words. But it's not purpose I need to find. I have decided, a very-very long time ago, and haven't faltered from this belief, that purpose does not exist. I can't look for something which I know ab ovo doesn't exist.

It's having someone special in my life that I miss.

And no, I don't wish to find purpose in that, either; just some solace.

Then my only advice would be to do something every day that makes you feel good.

Feeling good is important. Happiness it a good purpose.

It does. They are called the four fundamental forces. Where they came from, why they are what they are, etc. are all unknowns. This is where science and religion part ways. Religion pretends to know what science admits it doesn't. The problem comes when science discovers that what religion "knows" is wrong.

I'm an atheist, but like the vast majority of atheists, I don't pretend to know that there isn't a divinity, the supernatural, etc. I simply find no compelling reason to believe in either. Most atheists can be classified technically as agnostic, since no one can possibly KNOW that there isn't a god(s). I, like most atheists, lean strongly towards the idea that the observable, material world is all there is.

Atheists don't pretend to have all the answers (though the National Academy of Sciences is largely atheist, and they certainly have more answers than you do, lol), at least not those who are educated.



You're inserting necessity where there is none. There are four fundamental forces that govern the Universe. Gravity, Strong and Weak Nuclear forces, and Electromagnetic force govern how elements form, how they interact, and how "order comes from chaos." This is determined from hard, empirical evidence. Not from the desire for it to be so, which is largely the basis for spiritual thought.



Bollocks. Your purpose is to propagate your species. It is the result of approximately 2 billion years of evolution. The desire to survive and mate has been encoded in your DNA. Had it not been the most important part of your genetic makeup our species would have been eliminated by Natural Selection.

That being said, I obviously don't feel that we should be like 'lesser' animals and simply behave like, well, animals just because we are. We have incredibly powerful brains, and we all desire to be happy. We have one life to live, so why not enjoy it whilst propagating our species? lol.

But to say that anything above our basest impulses is our PURPOSE, however, is to be mistaken.

Well, I'm done rambling now...

**You would have to define exactly what you mean by god or gods before I could comment on that. But if by god you are talking about a supreme deity that single handedly created the universe I can safely say that I am pretty certain that this does not exist. Therefore I am an atheist. **



**Since I am an atheist you should not presume to tell me how atheists think or what they believe because I have met several different kinds of beliefs coming from 'atheists.'**

I said:



So what? So scientists have observed these things which seem apparent (and natural) within the very universe that we reside. This does not rule out intelligent design that originates from outside of this universe. It only observes the current state of this universe from a view point within the universe. In spite of all our "observations" we are still up against many unknowns. Science does not have the answers. They have not ruled out intelligent design at work.





You sound like one of the alien scientists who pretend to be gods trying to tell me what my purpose is.

I am not a genetic machine. I decide what my purpose is. Not you and not 2 billion years of evolution. I have the ability to ignore the encoding in my DNA that tells me I must mate and propagate, --which I did. It was my decision. Yes I felt the calling and the instinct, but I did not have to submit to that kind of programming. I am my own authority. I decide. Anything less is unconscious activity.



Everyone has a right to their opinion. But if 2 billion years of evolution can't tell me what my purpose is, you certainly can't either. I decide that.

Dang Jeannie, I think you misunderstood his post. I did not see anything that implied he was TELLING you you had to do or be anything.

He said: ". Your purpose is to propagate your species. "

I realize he was talking to me, as a human, in general, but the implication is that I am a genetic machine and a slave to my DNA programing and instincts.

I disagree.