How do you know this for sure?

Well if anyone had the answer to that question I would not be asking any questions at all.

I know intelligent designers exist because I am one of them.

of course. but that does not mean that the universe is the design of a designer. you're an arist but that does not mean that we are all artists. i am a mammal but that does not mean that all animals are mammals. you are relating what you experience with answers for concepts that you have not experienced. you did not experience the beginning of the universe. nobody did of course so we can only theorize it's beginnings. but you keep saying that you KNOW of a designer no matter how temporary you call your conclusion. so you KNOW as with many of religious faiths claim to KNOW more than the most accomplished and respected physicists know. they can only theorize but you KNOW. temporary as what you KNOW might be.

You cannot possibly know that I did not experience the beginning of the universe.

I don't think there is one designer. I think everyone is a designer and everyone contributes to the design (and expansion) of the universe. (But that is another very complicated theory probably outside the scope of these inquiries.)

I know a designer exists because I am a designer. I know I exist. And YES it all comes from my personal experience. Where else would any of it come from?

The most accomplished and respected physicists could not ever convince me that I do not exist and that I am not a designer. I am my own authority on that. I am what I am and I know what I know. I know I exist. That is the only place I can begin.

You may not understand where I am coming from on this. I don't know., maybe you will.

Observation. Empirical observation.

Oh yeh right.

Okee dokeee.

What are 'natural' forces?

I agree that many/most forces are non personal. That's part of the program. Who ever said they were personal???

Consciousness is personal. It has a perspective. It one aspect of intelligence, a requisite.

Disorder just means the lack of a pattern. Order just means recognizable patterns. Trying to posit an intelligent designer by noting order in natural settings is a leap which does not follow.

Its the crutch, the gap, the obvious shenanigans used by creationists.


Emm, natural patterns from disorder . . yummy

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3530/3985557043_b49096f5f1.jpg

http://www.alisonschwabe.com/weblog/wp-content/uploads/2009/04/natural-patterns-1-300x225.jpg

granted. so did you? if so we could be rich. if you let me be your literary agent that is. i did hear it first you know so there must be something in it for me.

Perhaps it is. But a computer program is not personal. And yet a conscious individual created the program.

I don't get personal with computer programs. They have a function and a design and a purpose. They are not personal. But they did not evolve all on their own. They had a programmer.

The law of cause and effect is not personal either. It is a program.
Where there is a program, it follows their must be a conscious programmer. This is my logic. I have not been convinced otherwise.

You just imply that everything happens "naturally." There is no plan, no design no purpose, no intent.

I find that the ultimate illogical conclusion.

*********************

Also, imagine a robot designed to be a killing machine, or even a person re-wired, brainwashed and trained to be a killing machine. He has no feelings at all.

Would you attempt to reason with him or to appeal to his 'humanity' or empathy. If you did, you would soon be dead.

I believe we all did. We have only to unlock the memory of it.

I am not implying anything. I was very specific. Order is not required to have an organizer.

So the logic of order = design is not correct. There fore, its up to you to present that link. If its not a given, then its not a valid conclusion to reach based on this simple observation of order.

Also, imagine a robot designed to be a killing machine, or even a person re-wired, brainwashed and trained to be a killing machine. He has no feelings at all.

Would you attempt to reason with him or to appeal to his 'humanity' or empathy. If you did, you would soon be dead.

I disagree. Order requires a program and a programmer. Just because your observation sees order everywhere that does not prove that it is a 'natural' state of the universe, not designed from the outside of that universe. You cannot see that far.

So its some plan to make gravity atractive with the purpose of making spherical planets?

Its some plan to make patterns in the surf based on tidal action?

Its some plan to make rock striations based on the material properties of the rock and the action of wind and erosion?

How can you blithely sit here and use real examples of designed things, and then compare then to patterns induced by natural processes without seeing the difference?

Natural processes are simply cause and effect at work within the implicate order of the universe.

The programs are designed to "naturally" work on automatic and in tandem with each other. They have had a lot of time to develop and perfect themselves and iron out bugs, --and are still doing so.

When you plant a seed you let the seed grow as it is programed to grow. You don't consciously control its every stage, you simply 'tend' it. That is because the program is already there in the DNA, and is still changing from generation to generation.

When you put a male rabbit in a cage with a female rabbit you don't have to tell them what they are supposed to do. The programming is already there. They know what to do.

Computers can even be programed to write other programs. Why not 'nature?' Saying that it is all just a 'natural' process does not explain the actual process and how it progresses from one stage to another.

To improve on programs (in nature) there has to be a form of 'memory' that keeps a record of the evolutionary progress... what works and what does not work. This memory has to have a storage place. The universe stores these memories everywhere. In the creatures themselves, in the genes, in the DNA.

You could not improve on a computer program if you did not have the older program and know its current state of progress. You do not scrap the old program and start from scratch and write a new one. You do not re-invent the wheel each time you need to move a wagon.

To improve on programs (in nature) there has to be a form of 'memory' that keeps a record of the evolutionary progress... what works and what does not work. This memory has to have a storage place. The universe stores these memories everywhere. In the creatures themselves, in the genes, in the DNA.


Only a small portion of "memory" is needed in the DNA anyway, parents teach their young for the most part. But this memory in the DNA is called survival.
This is a process of evolution. When the first little microorganisms were swimming around in their evironment, there were a lot of failed attempts to survive but some of them got it right. By eating the right thing and hanging out in the right environment which made it possible for them to make offspring through mytosis or whatever. Over time different food worked for some, different evironments worked for others with different food, etc...

Environmental influences and changes make each animal change which changes their survival memory.

It is part of life. Life makes it possible for life to continue.

You are not the first person to use the word "Life" in this context;..as if it were a conscious entity of some intelligence.



Really? how so?? How does "life" do this? What do you mean by "life" in this statement.



By "part of Life" what do you mean? Is life a thing that an individual can be 'part of?'

*********
There are many species where the parents cannot possibly 'teach their young' what to do and some species that never even see their parents.

One example:
There is one bird that lays its egg in the nest of another bird at just the right time. That egg hatches before the other eggs and pushes those eggs out of the nest. Then, the parent birds work like crazy to feed this giant baby bird which is twice their size. Then, when this bird becomes an adult, it does the same thing. It never knew its real parents. And yet it knows what kind of birds nest to lay its one egg, and at the specific time so that it will hatch before the other eggs and be raised by its foster parents.

JB you should read some popular book on evolutionary biology, I think you would get a kick.

Life is the energy.

Life is the drive.

Life is the base to all.

Whatever combination of elements that came together with the right catalyst and created life started it all.

The simplest life form started living and changing and growing and learning and it just carried on from there.

Yea small amounts of information are coded into the DNA and it changes as the environment changes because of a new way of surviving for the being.

the law of attraction,,,put simply