i've found that when things like this are mentioned, religious people go silent and don't respond. i appreciate those all those who have responded thus far, but are there any religious folk out there who oppose gay marraige on biblical grounds who can explain to me why you insist on doing so despite the fact that biblical morals are obviously flawed by today's standard?

i promise no sarcasm or attempts at being confrontational... i just genuinely want to know the rationale...

pweez?

I can explain it.Sociology 101.Values change over time.Thousands of years ago, people had radically different value systems.Some of their ways of thinking were almost alien compared to how we think.The world was a much different place 3 or 4 thousand years ago.Life was much different 3 or 4 thousand years ago.If a person in modern world behaved as people did 3 or 4 thousand years ago they would face serious social sanctions

But as I said earlier trying to define the modern way of getting married as "traditional marriage" is a load of bull. People in the past did not get married for love as we do now.They had arranged marriages or had it forced upon them ,so I dont know why some people nowadays are calling "marriage" a "sacred institution"

i can understand that part about value consensus changing over time( i did sociology too )... what i don't understand is the part where people believe that the same morals which were held thousands of years ago and upheld in the bible can be used as a valid argument for today's issue of gay marraige ...if morals and values have indeed changed since then.

Because they don't know what they are talking about.

well ok. but if you don't mind i'll hold a more optimistic position and wait for someone to explain it to me. i'm sure there's at least one such person out there who is willing to explain this to a young lost soul such as myself

The logical ones will tell you the same basic thing that I have said and the illogical ones will tell you a bunch of mystical mumbo jumbo.

Check out sexuality in ancient Greek Culture for a different perspective of sexuality in the ancient world.

i think i will. i'm always interested in matters of human sexuality.

The bible is mainly in the middle east but other parts of the world had radically different sexual values as you will see if you study ancient Greek cultureRadically different

i'll say...

apparently they had the same ideas as some of our modern day catholic priests...

If religious people were rational religion would become a thing of the past.

Evoloution pleeeaseeeee!

In any case, the Bible is a wonderful historical document and regardless of belief in God, it contains much of western man's written history. This post is enlightening, educational, and downright fun. Things written thousands of years ago still shine the light of perspective on current events. How do we know where we are going if we do not know where we have gone?

I don't see the need to bash anyone to discuss it intelligently.

It it truly 'bashing' anyone to suggest that the idea that the Bible is the word of God is an irrational idea?

After all, the people who originally made this claim were the very authors of the book itself. Other people just took their word for it.

The question then becomes, "Can this claim be rationalized?"

Silence suddenly falls upon the land of religious believers.

As a Christian I wanted to understand TRUTH.

I wanted to teach people the bible as the TRUTH of God.

I was dedicated to understanding God's TRUTH and sharing it with the world.

After all, if this book TRULY is the word of our creator who WOULDN'T want to know what it has to say?

However, what I soon began to realize, it the very simple TRUTH that religious clergy are NOT in the business of rationalizing this book as the word of God.

Instead they have become very clever at the ART of coming up with excuses for God. This is what religion has become, it's nothing more than the ART of making excuses for what's written in the Bible.

The most popular excuses are:

1. God must have wisdom that we can't understand.

Please? Does this truly fit in with the whole idea that a woman must marry her rapist?

If that's so wise, why aren't we still abiding by this wisdom today?

2. People are misinterpreting the Bible!

Again, give me a break. It says what it says!

3. Satan is leading people astray.

In order for this to be true Satan would have had to have written the Bible!

In fact, at one point some Christians actually believed that Satan wrote the entire Old Testament. They were called Cathers.

I think they were on to something.

Unfortunately the Catholic Pope ordered his armies to murder all those heathen Christians. And so it was done.

What I've come to realize is that to become a preacher of Christianity, rather than understanding the Bible as rational TRUTH, and teaching people an honest understanding of God, what I would have truly had to do was forfiet rationale altogether and learn the Art of making excuses.

To become a clergy is to learn the art of making excuses for God.

God's wisdom is so far superior to ours that we simply can't understand it my son.

I don't know the answer to that question my son, but have faith that God does.

If you misunderstand, it's because Satan is blinding you to the truth, pray to the Holy Spirit to enlighten you as I am enlightened to have FAITH in God dispite all of the obvious contraditions in his book.

I ask you, is this truly sane on any level?

Why should a belief in God be so dependent on defending a book that was written by a an ancient crude and rude society?

This is the SAME SOCIETY that nailed Jesus to the pole!

These were the SAME PEOPLE who wrote the Bible!

Please forgive me for my belief that this whole religious cult is nothing more than insanity gone berserk.

It's become the art of making excuses for God.

And rationale has been cast asunder as the work of Satan!

It causes poeple to view rational thought as the mark of the beast!

How sad is that?

Superstition reigns supreme!

Intelligence is condemned.

What can I say, it's not meant to bash anyone. It's simply an observation of truth.

I speak as a humanitarian for the sake of humanity.

My apologies to any individuals who suffer collateral damage.

You make a lot of great points Abra

Actually the more you study biblical history and compare it to archeological evidence the you find it is not as historically accurate as many believe.

While the OP 'may' describe certain aspects related to particular cultures with reference to "religious" marriage, there is something totally missing.

What about the political aspects? First of all while marriage is often considered complemetary to religion, it has been kept alive by throughout history by governments and political structures, WITHOUT, any religious relevence.

Political structures wanted marriage recorded for several purposes. Over the centuries they included, a means by which to assess taxation, keeping caste systems pure, keeping lineages pure, or broadening liniages for the purpose of adding more wealth to the government.

As Mirro mentions, "arranged" and "forced" marriage were the norm until the Western world changed that. Even in early America, arranged marriages were quite normal.

More recent adaptations to the secular marriage 'agreement' I think in the 1600's (which were adopted by our American forefathers) included laws of inheratance and proper benefactors and so on. This was done in good consciounce and WHOLLY APART from anything religious. It was simply a quick way for "new" citizens to understand that 'marriage' was tied to certain legal aspects and it mattered not whether the 'marriage' was religious in nature, only that it was NOTED in legal registries.

SO IT DOES MAKE SENSE TO QUESTION, HOW THE HECK DID SO MANY CHRISTIANS GET THE IDEA THAT MARRIAGE IS A 'CHRISTIAN' THING.
Not to mention that so many seem to think 'Christian marriage' in an inherent part of the American political system?????


In fact

It's all too confusing for me.

Do I need to rape the woman before or after the wedding?

I think we need to clarify this little technicality first so I can know how to proceed.

I think you better rape her before, during and after just to make sure.

Considering rape is not a crime of passion but a crime of control, I pity the women who had to suffer this.

He would become more sadistic in his control after the marriage until he beat her down mentally, emotionally and physically.

Sad state of affairs for women.

Not pointed toward you at all here Abra I know you were joking.