The fact is, you don't know that. You are not all-seeing or all-knowing. There is no way you can know that or prove that so why do you insist that is true?



Again, unless you are all-seeing and all-knowing you can't know that.

EVEN SO IT DOES NOT MATTER. My assertion is and always has been that every event has "CAUSE(S)". That is all. The "cause" of the event in your limited method of observation, is simply two events over lapped in a single spacetime environment.

But maybe the wind blew or the man sneezed, or his pet parrot landed in the tree.... You don't know, ~~and it does not matter. When sharing a space-time environment events effect other events. We can't see or know all of the causes at work within that environment or how they effect each other.

I do understand what you are saying though. But in a single spacetime system you cannot expect event systems to remain closed. They all effect each other and the causes are infinite and unknowable.






That is your opinion. I told you that apparent (What you can observe) randomness is only apparent. We are dealing with an infinite system and infinite causes are at work.

You are not all seeing, you cannot make these statements as fact. You can only say that this is what you believe, the same goes for me.

Your opinion and my opinion. That is what it boils down to.

I believe you are very wrong.

THIS ENTIRE THREAD IS ABOUT KNOWING AND WHAT CONSTITUTES KNOWING.

And yet you insist that you "know" something that you cannot possibly know in a infinite system.

When it comes to infinity you cannot KNOW it.

The argument boils down to the question of whether or not Randomness exists in our reality.

I don't believe it does, but I do believe that causes at work on many levels, seen and unseen and are so infinite that there is no way to prove it one way or another or know the difference. We simply cannot know all causes in an infinite system.

You state that if nothing is random there would be no way to chose because everything would be predetermined by prior causes?

Think of what you are saying here. What is cause? Are you yourself not cause? When you make a choice are you not BEING cause?

When are you being cause and when are you the effect of something?

My answer to that question is: You are being cause when you use your will to decide to act.

If you just sit around waiting for something to happen to you, then you are being EFFECT.

Perhaps randomness is simply the process of thinking centers utilizing their (free) WILL!

If there were no such thing as the WILL of the individual then we would all be EFFECT.

If that were the case, then what on earth would be THE CAUSE?

Something HAS TO MOVE AND THINK AND DECIDE AND ACT in order for cause to exist.

That something can be a thinking center, or a programed response that is automatic. A program is written by a thinking center and operates automatically.

I believe that Consciousness exists apart from any actuality.

It moves and thinks and manifests. Consciousness is cause. It manifests thinking centers, and programs.

But you miss the point.

If your will is FREE then your will must not be predetermined by cause. For if it were it would not be FREE, it would be predetermined.




This is precisely what I'm saying.




Exactly.



Well there you go.

You're demanding that Consciousness exist apart from any actuality.

In other words, you're demanding that Consciousness be random with respect to actuality.

In fact, for it to be truly FREE it must even be random with respect to its own actuality.

And let's face it, if you are considering Consciouness to be apart or seperate from this world (from this actuality), then it must exist in a realm of its own actuality.

So now you have TWO seperate actualities. One driven entirely by cause in a predetermined Newtonian sense. The other seperate actuality that intervenes in the first to affect it in non-predetermined ways (i.e. introduces randomess into the first system).

So now you've got two totally seperate systems that aren't truly seperate at all because they are intereacting with each other.

How complicated is that?

Why not just accept the complementarity of Quantum Mechanics and then you have both randomness and predeterminism existing simultaneously in the same actuality.

The random half keeps getting drunk on free will and the predetermined half keeps proping the drunk back up again.

Welcome to the Quantum Universe.

No need to invent anything more.

It's all ONE.

Welcome to Pantheism.

Welcome to the world of relationships





I comprehend snide just fine

This is getting a little ridiculous JB...

How do I know that a coconut can fall from a tree without being influenced by a man walking under it?

Cause it happens all the time without a man walking under it.

How do I know that a man can walk under a coconut tree without the coconut tree influencing the man?

Cause men walk all the time without a coconut tree being around.

That is sufficient reason to believe that the two sets of causally related events are independently separate(closed from the other).

Where is the logic or proof that they are not or cannot be this way? There is no amount of evidence being shown that suggests anything to the contrary.



I make claims that can be logically explained, while being given some completely irrational refutation...

James is taking the time to dissect your posts, while I am just ignoring the muddied perception which has brought on several different attempts to refute the claim. The curious thing lies in the fact that your own refutations are contradicting one another. I am beginning to believe that the goal is an attempt at disproving whatever it is that I write...

Good luck with that!




Art...

Snide?

That is a personal remark which is being applied to the idea that I know that people do not or cannot understand everyone's point of view unless the terms being used maintain an equal definition and/or meaning in the discussion.

If one comprehends a sound thought process then one would see the value within it, as seen by the one labeling it as sound... and vice-versa...

This statement illustrates a total breakdown in communication and meanings of words.

1. THE WILL is JUST THE WILL (and is always FREE.)
2. THE WILL IS CAUSE therefore it is not predetermined by cause. IT IS CAUSE.



Let me clarify. Consciousness manifests reality.

I do not contradict myself or my claims.

1. My only assertions are that every event has cause(s).
2. Nothing is random.

I also conceded (regarding your claim of the existence of pure randomness)-- that it MAKES NO DIFFERENCE ANYWAY because you cannot KNOW all the causes that are at work in an infinite system.

The appearance of randomness is what you are seeing. You cannot know or tell the difference between that and pure randomness in an infinite system. You cannot know infinity.

And yet you still want to insist that you KNOW. When you only think you know or believe in your limited observations.

YOU ARE NOT ALL-KNOWING OR ALL SEEING SO YOU CAN'T KNOW ALL CAUSES AT WORK ON THE PHYSICAL AND SPIRITUAL LEVELS.

Oh I forgot... you don't believe in the spiritual levels.

I rest my case.

An yes this is getting ridiculous. If both you and Abra wish to believe in accidents, and randomness and victims that is you mind set.

It is not the way I believe and I have not seen any proof otherwise.

Uhhh...



Ummmm...



Buh!



Ok!


Was that a clarification or a complete about face?

No, it simply means that we, (thinking centers) create reality. This is not an about face. It is what I have always asserted.

The total breakdown in communication is the result of the beliefs of each individual being on a completely different foundation and premise.

1. I believe that THE WILL is just THE WILL. You either use it or you do not use it, but it is always the WILL and always there to be used or not. It is not a question of whether it is "free" or not. It is a question of awareness.

2. THE WILL IS CAUSE.

3. We create reality with our minds or thoughts (not our brains) (we are SPIRITUAL thinking centers).

4. Every event has CAUSE(S).

5. This reality is a reality that consists of Observers (thinking centers with a will), manifestations, and events.

6. Your life is an event that encompasses infinite other events.

7. The dimensions of Space & time are coordinates (which are addresses for the location of events within the matrix.)

You are the event horizon. Each of us are.

This is getting interesting!

Regarding this...

Uh... yes you do!

And this...



I agree with number one. I have effectively shown number two is without logical grounds - as below...

[[[[[[[ The interaction between two independant systems(sets of circumstances which have independent cause and effect) does not have a cause for their simultaneous existence in the same place at the same time, without invoking reason, purpose, or intent...]]]]]]]

Now this...



Infinity does not exist, but that is a different subject.

It makes a difference in one's understanding. If that makes no difference to you, as a person, then so be it. I find accuracy in belief to be of major importance.

Here is the grand finale...



Where to start? So what?

WTF does any of this truly mean? How does this argument, if taken at face value, not apply to anything and everything that anyone believes?

For you to use this tactic means nothing. You have stated nothing of substance here. I wonder if this has been done simply because the ability to disprove that which contradicts your belief system has not been shown.

Your understanding is on the physical level. To me, that means you are inside of that box. I don't expect you to comprehend any of what I have said. Not any of it. And I am not surprised that it 'means nothing' to you. I am not surprised you see no 'substance' in what I say. You simply cannot see beyond your state of consciousness.

I have said all I can say. There is no more that I can say to you about this subject. You cannot and will not see it. This reality is not "logical" in the way you would like it to be. Sorry.

Infinity is in this very moment. Infinity is NOW.

Neither does the particle.

Neither does NOTHING.

Neither does zero.

Neither does time.

Neither does space...

and yet.... there is no end to this present moment.

Ahhhhh.... Now we finally get back on topic!

Neither can you!

That is the crux of the issue at hand here, is it not?

What constitutes knowing?

How well what one believes to be true(what one knows) corresponds to what is already believed to be true(known).

That is the only measuring stick anyone truly has, is it not?

Some like to place the unknowns into spirituality, others do not. I hold that spirituality has no measurable basis in actuality, therfore it is all based upon assumptive emotional content. It has been proven that emotionally driven actions and thoughts are irrational.

Nothing happens yesterday, and nothing happens tomorrow. All that happens, happens NOW.

Feelings are not the same thing as emotions.

Do you have the answer to that question?

Ummm...


Ummm...


Tell that to the dinosaurs!

That statement has no basis. Instantaneous existence does not exist.

What constitutes knowing?



We all do! I have mine, you have yours.

whether a thought, or word, or action is deemed as "random", makes no different in a conclusion, that "all things effect what it "touch", whether the "energy" is random or not???

the term "energy" used???

to focus on the "leaves of a tree", one cannot solve what control the tree, or made the tree, so cannot understand it???

ONE MUST LOOK TO THE "ROOT" TO SOLVE WHAT MAKE THE TREE???

so, to breakdown cause and effect, speaking of the human "contact or effect", one would have to gather into common agreement, what all thought, word, and action is???

since there are infinity words, infinity deeds, infinity actions possible, it must be reduced to the simplest common denominator???

just as when working with excceddingly large numbers of anything???

MUST FIND A CONSTANT???

all energy???

the natural inclination is "only action is energy"???

but this is not maximum insight into "what is energy"???

IF I CAN MAKE YOU "FEEL ANYTHING", I HAVE USED ENERGY???

I HAVE ENVOKED UNTO ACTION???

IF THERE IS A "DECISION" BY ANOTHER, IN THE BRAIN, THERE IS EFFECT, SO CHANGE, so, AND NOT MISSED EVEN A FACIAL EXPRESSION IS ENERGY???

SO THERE IS AN 'ENERGY' EXCHANGE, SO MUST BE "CREATION OF SOMETHING, WHETHER IT BE FOR GOOD OR FOR WORSE???

yes, it take ENERGY to make it, and the 'effect of it on another', HAS MEANING IF "SEEN", OR "HEARD", FIRST HAND, SECOND HAND HEARING, MILLION REMOVED HAND HEARING OR SIGHT, BUT ALL THINGS "HEARD OR SEEN", BY THE BRAIN", MAKE OR ENVOKE A DECISION OF 'WHICH', or a decision of REALITY ONE WAY OR THE OTHER, so all things CREATE SOMETHING ESLE???

SO "DECISION OF WHICH", show a CHANGE, NO MATTER HOW MINISCULE SELF DEEM IT???

is CAN AND DOES EFFECT, OR CAUSE SOMETHING TO BE EFFECTED, SO CHANGE ANOTHER, SO SELF IS A CREATOR???

it is hard to see, SINCE THE INCLINATION FROM BIRTH, IS TO SEE HOW ALL EFFECT SELF, INSTEAD OF HOW SELF EFFECT ALL OTHER'S???

the older one get, the more IT SEE HOW OTHER'S EFFECT SELF, AS THERE IS MORE PRACTICE thinking this way, so it gets more pronounced, JUST A PATTERN OF "SYNAPSE FIRING" IN THE BRAIN???


the saying, it is hard to teach an old dog new tricks, lol???

so, hard to teach what has been thought or done for a long time???

why a "child" is much more "teachable" than an adult???

IT IS FOR THIS REASON ALONE, that if self, "MAKE THIS A TWO WAY STREET, AS "BOTH PARTIES EFFECTING, OR CREATING, and allow this as having input into thought process, even thought this is true, IT CANNOT ALLOW FOR THE "LEARNED INSIGHT" OF "HOW" SELF IS A CREATOR???

the human living it's life, is no different than working with an inert object, say a painter with an easel???

self can see itself as a 'creator', if it draw a portrait???

why not with people???

it is no different with other people???

NO,, THE MIND SAY, LOL!!!???

THEY ARE ALIVE, AND MAKE THEIR "OWN" CHOICES???

but each word, effect their choice, BY ESTABLISHING MORE THE CHOICE AS A GOOD ONE, OR A BAD ONE???

BY ENVOKING "THOUGHT ENERGY", OF ANOTHER'S CHOICE AS "BAD", ONE HAS "EXERTED INVISIBLE BUT REAL PRESSURE AS "ENERGY" TOWARD THE CHOICE IS BAD UNTO ANOTHER, AND IT IS "FELT", SO EFFECT, SO CHANGE, SO CREATE???

yea, DOES THE PIECE OF PAPER, AND PAINT, AND BRUSH, FOR AN ARTIST, MAKE A "CHOICE ITSELF" AS WELL???

they ALL REACT TO HOW SELF "TOUCH THEM", OR "USE THEM"???

they have, OR REACT TO, THE PRINCIPLE OF ACTION-REACTION JUST LIKE PEOPLE DO???

THE HUMAN THINKING IS IF YOUR SUBJECT "ALIVE", IT IS NOT THE TOTAL SUBJECT OF SELF, OR EFFECTED BY SELF FOR GOOD OR BAD SAKE???


but this is a total cop out, FOR THE SAKE OF EXHONORATING SELF IN ANY CREATION OF ANYTHING AS LESS THAT MOST GOOD, BUT A "TRAP" INTO DESROYING THE SIGHT OF SELF AS A CREATOR, OR CREATIVITY, WHICH IS BUT LEARNING FROM ALL THINGS ON THE "OUTSIDE", GOOD DATA???

EACH THOUGHT, WORD, AND ACTION, CAUSE A REACTION IN "THEM", SO SELF IS THE PAINTER???

it can be disproven, but as well, it can be proven, as the "choice self make, when it prove or disprove, is based on what SELF WANT???

the motive of the heart???

the DATA SELF LOOK FOR, IS BASED ON WHAT IT WANT TO SEE???

so, self HAS MUCH MORE CONTROL, THAN IT CAN BEGIN TO IMAGINE???

random or not, SELF "CREATE ALL IT TOUCH" INTO SOMETHING DIFFERENT???

all thought is being "projected into the universe", so live or is gathered into a TOTAL ENERGY, SO EFFECT AND TOUCH ALL HUMANS EVERYWHERE???

because all humans, IF HAVING CONTACT WITH ANY OTHER, NO MATTER WHO AND HOW FAR REMOVED, EFFECT THE OTHER IT TOUCH, EVEN WITH JUST A "DECISON" OF "WHICH", or good or bad for each things seen, or how it effect self in each thing seen and heard???

THOUGHT DOES NOT SOME SAY???

if one walk into a room, full of anger, CAN IT FEEL IT???

WHAT IF NONE SPEAK IT???

CAN IT STILL BE FELT "EASILY"???

SO THEN 'ENERGY' IS THE FIRST "NEUTRAL" SINGLE PRINCIPLE, able to be worked with, OF "THOUGHT, WORD, AND DEED", ALL COMBINED INTO "ONE", TO BREAK DOWN ALL THE REST, of HOW AND WHAT AND WHY HUMAN MAN DOES WHAT IT DOES, or there is simply 'randonness' in the "data" itself???

so, just because anything say, "that was random act"???

this could not EVER be said, EXCEPT TO "DISPROVE" EFFECT???

THE VERY WORD WAS FIRST "INVENTED", TO DISPROVE EFFECT OF ALL THINGS ON ANOTHER???

from an older period of time, WHEN THE INSIGHT WAS NOT AS ADVANCED AS IT CAN NOW BE???

to actually say nothing at all, IS RANDOM, IS TRUE BUT A "FALSE IMPRESSION", BY KNOWLEDGE, AS ALL THINGS IN THE UNINVERSE ARE RANDOM, WHETHER THEY ARE "DESIGNED FOR A SPECIFIC REASON OR NOT"???

the MOST CONSTANT MEANING OF ANY WORD, is the only "breakdown" to ONE COMMON DENOMINATOR, to get past a word with "many percieved meanings", being heard and taken into the brain by "billions of "different ears"???

ONE ACT, COMPARED TO INFINITY OTHER'S, THAT COULD HAVE BEEN, is, and could ALWAYS, BE SAID TO BE RANDOM???

SO, WHAT I WANT, EACH SECOND, THE MOST, EFFECT AND CHANGE ALL THINGS AROUND ME, AS THIS WILL DECIDE MY "THOUGHT, WORDS, ACTIONS", WHICH ARE THE TOTAL SUM OF "ALL MY ENERGY"???

THE "TOTAL WANT IS AND WAS IN A BEGINNING OF ALL THINGS, FROM A "RANDOM" WANT, AND GIVES NO GREATER KNOWING, EXCEPT TO 'DISRPOVE' SOMETHING HAS BEEN EFFECTED BY ME FOR GOOD OR BAD???

the word would AND COULD NOT be used, EXCEPT FOR THE REASON TO DIMMINISH OR DISPOVE SOME "EFFECT"???

random is to imply, NO MEANING, SO NO EFFECT ON ANYTHING ELSE, WHICH IS IMPOSSIBLE, NO MATTER WHAT THE PERCEPTION OF "ONE EYE" ALONE IS ABLE TO SEE???

whew...

that was a lot of 'energy'...

no edit, out of energy, lol...

peace