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Topic: On Knowing...
no photo
Sun 04/26/09 10:08 PM

In order to simplify this area of the discussion I believe it first needs to be well defined.

Fight or flight responses are 'reptilian-based' and purely instinctual at first, and are directly linked to known chemical reactions. However, there are inherent difficulties in knowing whether or not what was purely instinctual is still as such, or whether that instinctual response has been altered in some way by using conscious thought; Such as the case through practiced self-control or a change in confidence through experience.

I personally find the 'programming' analogy to be useless... it unnecessarily invokes the need for a programmer. A programmer invokes purpose, intent, and/or reason. It also equates nature with a human.

If programming is 'learned responses' then what are ones which are not learned?


Perhaps they are cellular or DNA type memory.


creativesoul's photo
Sun 04/26/09 10:23 PM
It is quite clear that humans are not born as a 'blank slate' which is entirely shaped by environment. It is also quite clear that environment alone does not account for everything one becomes either. Therefore, it is a combination of both... however, this is leading away from the focus at hand.

Perhaps we are asking the wrong questions...

flowerforyou


no photo
Sun 04/26/09 10:50 PM
It would seem that it is a combination of both, but I happen to believe in the spiritual aspect of knowing and memory.


creativesoul's photo
Sun 04/26/09 10:51 PM
At this moment in time I am unsure exactly how to express it, but I believe that there is a connection which can be made/recognized and further developed concerning the relationship between the unpredictability of human behavior(s) and random probability.

Keep in mind that probability is based upon known cause and effect. More importantly, it is a measure of the liklihood for all known possible outcomes of any given interaction. The quantification of human behavior is most likely impossible because of the extremely large values regarding the number of variables in question. Not to mention the fact that not every human reacts in the same way, like a billiard ball does...

Nevertheless, I believe that the concept can be soundly established.


no photo
Sun 04/26/09 10:55 PM
Edited by Jeanniebean on Sun 04/26/09 10:56 PM

At this moment in time I am unsure exactly how to express it, but I believe that there is a connection which can be made/recognized and further developed concerning the relationship between the unpredictability of human behavior(s) and random probability.

Keep in mind that probability is based upon known cause and effect. More importantly, it is a measure of the liklihood for all known possible outcomes of any given interaction.

1.)The quantification of human behavior is most likely impossible because of the extremely large values regarding the number of variables in question. Not to mention the fact that not every human reacts in the same way, like a billiard ball does...

2.)Nevertheless, I believe that the concept can be soundly established.




1.) --I would hope so.laugh :tongue:

2.)--I doubt it.

creativesoul's photo
Sun 04/26/09 10:59 PM
I doubt it.


What known warrants the doubt?

no photo
Sun 04/26/09 11:03 PM
Edited by Jeanniebean on Sun 04/26/09 11:04 PM

I doubt it.


What known warrants the doubt?


Not a known.. a belief

I believe The Will is the random element, and although human behavior can be predicted with some degree of accuracy, it cannot be relied upon as a certainty.


creativesoul's photo
Sun 04/26/09 11:13 PM
Not a known.. a belief

I believe The Will is the random element, and although human behavior can be predicted with some degree of accuracy, it cannot be relied upon as a certainty.


If you claim that you believe that the will is a random element, then you are saying that you believe this to be true. If you believe it to be true, then you base other beliefs upon it in some way, as you have shown above.

That consistutes the foundation for being a known...

Does the evidence which would be unthinkable to deny support this claim, or refute it?

What other things must also be held as true in order to be able to believe this?

Jess642's photo
Sun 04/26/09 11:19 PM

Is it possible to act without thinking?




Yes.


As in have action, responses...yes.

To perform on stage ....no.

creativesoul's photo
Sun 04/26/09 11:25 PM
Is it possible to act without thinking?



As in have action, responses...yes.

To perform on stage ....no.


How do you know?

creativesoul's photo
Mon 04/27/09 12:03 AM
For someone to make claim of truth or of knowing requires some form of substantiation or it is a meaningless statement...

What sense does it make for me to say I know I am alive, without being able to express what constitutes that?

Because one says something is so, does not make it so...

As Witt said...

It takes some shewing...

flowerforyou

kpdabeat353's photo
Mon 04/27/09 03:57 AM
The only thing we can perceive are our perceptions

no photo
Mon 04/27/09 07:47 AM

Not a known.. a belief

I believe The Will is the random element, and although human behavior can be predicted with some degree of accuracy, it cannot be relied upon as a certainty.


If you claim that you believe that the will is a random element, then you are saying that you believe this to be true. If you believe it to be true, then you base other beliefs upon it in some way, as you have shown above.

That consistutes the foundation for being a known...

Does the evidence which would be unthinkable to deny support this claim, or refute it?

What other things must also be held as true in order to be able to believe this?




I believe the only randomness in this reality is the WILL. FREE CHOICE OF ACTION is the random element. All events that appear to be random have a cause and that cause is WILL in action and movement.

I do not know this for certain. I believe this.

The only thing I know for certain, is that I exist.

I make no "certain" claims other than what I believe and what I know.

I know I exist. All else is opinion.






ThomasJB's photo
Mon 04/27/09 08:34 AM

I believe the only randomness in this reality is the WILL. FREE CHOICE OF ACTION is the random element. All events that appear to be random have a cause and that cause is WILL in action and movement.

I do not know this for certain. I believe this.

The only thing I know for certain, is that I exist.

I make no "certain" claims other than what I believe and what I know.

I know I exist. All else is opinion.


Using your ideas, you have just linked randomness to freewill
(which you have stated is randomness). randomness + randomness = randomness. It is pointless equation. randomness + randomness /= cause.

no photo
Mon 04/27/09 08:58 AM


I believe the only randomness in this reality is the WILL. FREE CHOICE OF ACTION is the random element. All events that appear to be random have a cause and that cause is WILL in action and movement.

I do not know this for certain. I believe this.

The only thing I know for certain, is that I exist.

I make no "certain" claims other than what I believe and what I know.

I know I exist. All else is opinion.


Using your ideas, you have just linked randomness to freewill
(which you have stated is randomness). randomness + randomness = randomness. It is pointless equation. randomness + randomness /= cause.



"freewill" is not a word.

THE WILL is just the will. It is either used or not.

THE WILL is cause.

THE WILL is the random element in this reality.

There is no thing that exists on its own called 'randomness.'


creativesoul's photo
Mon 04/27/09 08:59 AM
I believe the only randomness in this reality is the WILL. FREE CHOICE OF ACTION is the random element. All events that appear to be random have a cause and that cause is WILL in action and movement.

I do not know this for certain. I believe this.

The only thing I know for certain, is that I exist.

I make no "certain" claims other than what I believe and what I know.

I know I exist. All else is opinion.


To doubt everything is impossible. The doubts that are so often used by the idealists; the 'how can we know anything' type of questions are senseless.

If one cannot effectively express what it is that they believe to be true, then one does not know what they believe.

In order to choose 'A' one must know of 'A'...

Free will/choice does not exist.

no photo
Mon 04/27/09 09:06 AM

I believe the only randomness in this reality is the WILL. FREE CHOICE OF ACTION is the random element. All events that appear to be random have a cause and that cause is WILL in action and movement.

I do not know this for certain. I believe this.

The only thing I know for certain, is that I exist.

I make no "certain" claims other than what I believe and what I know.

I know I exist. All else is opinion.


To doubt everything is impossible. The doubts that are so often used by the idealists; the 'how can we know anything' type of questions are senseless.

If one cannot effectively express what it is that they believe to be true, then one does not know what they believe.

In order to choose 'A' one must know of 'A'...

Free will/choice does not exist.



I do not doubt that I exist.

I believe what I believe is true. But in order to have an open mind to receive truth one must consider the possibility that you are not absolutely correct in all that you believe.

99% is good enough for me.





creativesoul's photo
Mon 04/27/09 09:07 AM
There is no thing that exists on its own called 'randomness.'


Sure there is. It is the opposite of intentional. It describes the probability of two unrelated causal systems interacting with each other coincidentally in space-time.

ThomasJB's photo
Mon 04/27/09 09:09 AM



I believe the only randomness in this reality is the WILL. FREE CHOICE OF ACTION is the random element. All events that appear to be random have a cause and that cause is WILL in action and movement.

I do not know this for certain. I believe this.

The only thing I know for certain, is that I exist.

I make no "certain" claims other than what I believe and what I know.

I know I exist. All else is opinion.


Using your ideas, you have just linked randomness to freewill
(which you have stated is randomness). randomness + randomness = randomness. It is pointless equation. randomness + randomness /= cause.



"freewill" is not a word.

THE WILL is just the will. It is either used or not.

THE WILL is cause.

THE WILL is the random element in this reality.

There is no thing that exists on its own called 'randomness.'



Call it whatever you want, my statement still means the same thing. if Randomness(THE WILL) = randomness there is no cause, there is no WILL, there is only randomness in which case we are nothing more than helpless victims.

creativesoul's photo
Mon 04/27/09 09:09 AM
I do not doubt that I exist.

I believe what I believe is true. But in order to have an open mind to receive truth one must consider the possibility that you are not absolutely correct in all that you believe.

99% is good enough for me.


99% does not follow from your words...

0.00000000000000000000000001% does.




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