I've never hesitated to point out where I agree with you Abra.

Mainstream Christianity - hmmm... I wonder how close we would agree on just what THAT is. One particular point we've always agreed on, is the fact that there are so few that even agree with each other. There are so many differences between Catholics and Baptists, I often wonder how they can both be considered "Mainstream Christianity" - and therefore the same. It's obvious to anyone that they're not. There are more differences than there are similarities.

I think the question really - is how many "Mainstream Christians" actually think the bible is the truthful representation of what they believe? That would be a good place to start.

Ahh - but now you are talking a completely different argument here.

Let's go back to your statement about "Christians" being commanded to stone transgressors. I remain steadfast on my statement that you are wrong in this. That this legalistic interpretation of Old Testament Law is not what Christianity teaches. That being said, this does not equate to my saying that the Old Testament has nothing to do with Christianity.

The difficulty you are having in trying to support your argument with pretext - is that while you may find a verse in the O.T. that appears to support it - you will find numerous verses in the New Testament which contradict your conclusion. That's called contextual understanding.

So rather than trying to guess what my point is - just make your point.

That's baloney.

Contextually there is no way that Jesus could be the son of the God of Abraham.

Period.

In fact, it's the context of the big picture which shows that this is impossible.

The New Testament contradicts iself! Jesus says that not one jot, nor one tittle shall pass from law. Then he proceeds to denounce the law of stoning sinners to death. He denounces the judging of others which was a requirment of the God of Abraham. The God of Abraham commanded people to judge others in order to stone them (how else could they decide they are "sinners"?)

Clearly the New Testament contradicts itself.

If Jesus wanted to change the laws why not just say so?

Clearly this book was written by unscrupulous men who were attempting to use a dead Jesus as a patsy to support the very doctines that Jesus himself obviously disagreed with.

It just makes no sense for a God to come to earth, claim that he's not going to change his laws, and then set about changing them!

Something is drastically wrong with the picture Eljay, and the phrase "That's called contextual understanding" doesn't dismiss anything.

The more contextual we get the less the story holds water!

Contextually speaking look at it from a bird's eye view!

You have a God commanding people to murder heathens, and then he sends his son into that very same crowd to become a heathen!

Contextually the book is ABSURD.

Okey - let's examine your claims...



He did neither of these - what he did do was declare that those without sin cast the first stone. How was this denouncing what they were about to do?

He does not denounce judging - he declares that "As ye judge - so shall ye be judged". That is not denouncing the act of judging - just that one be careful how one judges.

so...



It is you who are contradictory - as you are having difficulty discerning context.



Where has he changed his Laws? The intent was for people to change the way they were interpreting the Law. For example - you. You interpret Jesus as changing the Law. Cite me a scripture where this is true.



What I find wrong with the picture Abra - is how you are interpreting it. You establish all of your idea's through pretext. The very thing you rattle on about the Christians of today, and of the past being guilty of.

each little tittle, jot and dot, only biased man able to define with spot.

not a word in the universe ever pass away, nor ever found as only fray.

each word from the mouth as but a strand, interpretations of man only a rope that fail to give strength to stand.

for but to wait to disprove other's is but nots to tie, lie in the way of each piece of peace that lead to unity on high.

each word from the beginning and very start, but defined thru unequal and self biased heart.

Most Christians today are guilty of nothing but being taken in by a bunch of ancient lies.

How can you even begin to deny the TRUTHS I have set forth?

I already posted the direct quotes from scripture.

God first commands people to have no other Gods before him.

Then he commands them to murder anyone who disagrees with him.

Then he sends his son into the mob to disagree with him and claim that the only way to the Father is THROUGH Jesus! A direct violation of the FIRST commandment that thou shalt put not other God's before the God of Abraham.

If you try to claim that Jesus was the SAME GOD, that only makes matter WORSE!

Here's the bottom line Eljay:

A bunch of male-chuavinist pigs made up a jealous God who hates heathens and condones their male-chauvinistic behavior. They claim that their writings are the word of God!

They LIED. And they even had their readers stoning heathens to death to protect their lies!

Then Jesus came along and denounce their violent text. They became enraged and used the commandments of their text to have Jesus crucified (rightly so if they believed it was the word of their GOD!)

Then rumors started up about this unjust crucifixion. Many of the rumors said that Jesus actually denounced the Old Text. There were many arguments about this.

Finally some more unscruplous men wrote their version of the rumors up to try to claim that Jesus actually supported the very doctrine that he was crucified for rejecting!

They tried to claim that he was somehow the incarnation of the God of Abraham that came to denounce his own teachings!

Most people probably wouldn't have bought into it, but they didn't just ask people politely to believe this, they proclaimed their doctine to be the "Holy Word of God!" and anyone who dares to question it or denounce it will face the SWORD!

And MANY PEOPLE DIED!

It was a BLOOD BATH for CENTURIES!

Do you honestly believe that all the people who were rejecting this religion were rejecting Jesus?

I don't think so Eljay.

They KNEW just like I KNOW that the authors of that horrid scriptures were the EVIL MEN and they most certainly DO NOT speak for God!

Jesus was their patsy!

The Bible isn't about Jesus, nor is about the ficticious God of Abraham. It's about a rude crude culture that were dastardly enough to claim that they speak for God.

You talk about CONTEXT!

If you want to talk about CONTEXT get your head out of the Bible and LOOK AROUND!

Do you see where any supreme being told the rest of the world about his love afair with the Jews?

What kind of immoral being do you think God is?

A God that focuses on one tiny little male-chauvinistic socieity and IGNORES the rest of his creation?

No way!

It doesn't fit.

The Jews were arrogant and beligerent enough to claim that they speak for God.

That's all it is! It's just a take-off modeled after Zeus.

It has nothing to do with God. God couldn't be as stupid and as ignorant as those men demand he must be.

If you want to talk about CONTEXT just look around at the entire planet. Where did God show up? Just for the Israelites?

Oh Please!

Give me a Break!

You expect me to believe that God chose them to be his authors and rejected the rest of humanity?

I don't buy that for one second.

The Jews were just arrogant people who claimed to speak for God.

I don't believe that the creator of this universe lusts for blood sacrifices and can't forgive men their sins unless they first offer to nail his son to a pole.

It's absurd.

Sorry. But when you talk about CONTEXT you really need to look at the BIG PICTURE of humanity as a whole, not just the biblical story which conflicts with itself as well.

I don't know why you are so bent on believing that God would send his son to be nailed to a pole to pay for your failings.

Where's the attraction in that anyway?

Even if you made it to heaven you'd have to hang your head in a bucket for the rest of eternity because you would FOREVER be guilty of, and responsible for, the fact that God had to have his son nailed to a pole to save your unworthy butt.

Where's the attraction in such a negative picture of reality?

It's just a made up mythology of an authoritarian culture that was trying to use God as an excuse to get the masses to murder their enemies and to keep their women oppressed in the name of God. (These are ideals that most of us wouldn't even approve of as being moral, yet you expect me to believe that God supported this crap?)

The problem James is that those who study a particular religion and follow its teachings only believe what is written or preached to be true.

For example: Christians believe the accounts of what happened over 2000 years ago. They believe it because it is written in the bible. This (alone) seems to be credited as factual for some reason.

For another reason, they doubt your personal conclusion of what the bible entails is words of god. They cannot believe what you say is accurate for there is no historical evidence written to dissaprove it, except for other authors later on. They ask themselves how can a man that lives today refute history of events 2000 years ago or any of the questions man has been asking thousands of years prior to that? They weigh their options of what is true or not by asking: Do I take the words of the bible or the man who types in his conclusion today? What makes his conclusion credible and not mine where I have evidence in my hands. For those who don't believe in the bible's writings can be paradox only, but for them it is a paradox that we don't believe in a ancient writings.

Thomas Jefferson did try to take out the supernatural events as of other things from the bible to create the "jefferson bible".
Although it is a book that sounds more realistic it doesn't seem to carry over to the people in the end. Why is that? Perhaps it is in people's nature to enjoy a story with supernatural events better then a book that just recites history in its ordane way. People enjoy drama, especially if it sounds convincing!

What I find is ironic is that all the religions that existed before Judiac's Old Testaments are not even considered in their minds. It is as if they never existed or cannot be taken seriously, yet the Old Testament can be taken seriously as accurate words of Gods explanation to all the questions man has asked.

The best answer I usually get is that the humans before the Old Testament where still searching for the words of God. They didn't know them yet until Jesus came as the son of God. I find that amazing that in the 21st century that science has answered many of the questions that we didn't know then but know now are still being denied by those of faith preferring the faith of a book that was written by men who didn't know the planet was round yet.

My only conclusion is that from a young age they are to believe in this book (and feel comfortable with it)as if it is intergrated into their mind as the only solution to how everything started, what life is like after you die, and how life should be lived. Therefore, they go word by word of what it teaches honing them to not to believe in anything else.

In the end the supernatural and the superstition has always been a fascination for the humans. Unfortunately, some don't know when to draw the line when it gets to dangerous causing great conflicts and atrocities that can only bring shivers up your spine.

In the end what will happen when you try to reason your idealogy with someone who has a convicted faith with a book that is claimed to be the words of god.

99% of the time they will say you are not reading the bible correctly, interpertating it wrong, or even abusing it or you will get the old testament is not to be taken literally anymore and one should concentrate on the new testament, which derived from the old testament.

It will remain for many a discussion of tug of war with no end.

For you on the other hand, will only waste great energy and effort to convince otherwise. The energy should be used wisely as our lives are only lived for so long and there is so much to learn that offers broad perspectives of opportunities ahead.

Abra...

what you aught against any that believe the bible will not be corrected by trying to disprove it, ever???

attempting to do so, is indeed but a rally to incite all unpeace, a call to collect votes for another belief as better, which be simply a mental and emotional war created within people's against a people's, who be just as PURE AND JUST AS YOURSELF???

to disprove another religion as less correct, is EXACTELY WHAT FOUNDED THE NEXT RELIGION DOWN THRU TIME, AND ALL RELIGIONS THAT EVER SPRANG FORTH???

this is only to become and create the exact atrocities you so abhore, as these in history that created such, USED THE EXACT SAME MENTALITY YOU ARE USING, THAT ANOTHER BELIEF IS LESS AND THE CULPRIT, SO THE CULPRIT BECOME DAMN PEOPLE???

do you wish to rally your own 10,OOO angel's for erasure of another people's???

how will this create untiy???

how will this eliminate divide???

how will this create peace???

how will this prosper love between all people's???

how will this not just perpetuate and USE THE NATURAL BIAS WITHIN PEOPLE, compounding it into more bias, of some people against other people's???

it is the person itself, the view of the heart, that is held, that define all that is read from the outside, and thus create what either destroy or harm, or add to, by creating the WANT for the sake of love, to leave bias???

is this about which religion is more correct, or about peace???

is it about proof of which religion is false???

nothing is false, or false IS CREATED!!!???

the onlt greatest truth is how all religions are true, which leave NOT ONE SLIVER OF ROOM FOR ONE RELIGION AGAINST ANOTHER, WHICH IS WHAT CREATED ALL THAT IS NOW THAT IS OF UNPEACE???

the MOTIVE create the words CHOSEN, so the words spoken, so the create what the words expell into the air into REALITY, so the MOTIVE IS THEN CREATED INTO REALITY???

???

!!!

???

what is your greatest desire concerning religion then???

to prove one false???

not one letter of the religion you despise is false dear friend, as the READING HEARTS can only define into UNEQUAL, SO THEN WAR, or destruction of some???

would this fulfill your present desire???

would you deem yourself as wise and ready to carry all mankinds fate upon your back, and make yourself responsible for the fate and welfare of each human thing, as to perpetuate one as better than another in inception, is but to stand and declare how people's belief are wrong, which is to carry all upon one's own shoulder's, which is truely the greatest self arrogance and self pride alone in itself???

such thinking is what all religions first thought long ago, and this logic used as wisdom will but create more self vanity as unto self diety or singular dieties as knowing more truth, and why unto destruction again and again and again, and is WHAT PEACE WILL NOT ALLOW THIS TIME AROUND???

those days are past, if we WISH THEM TO BE PAST, BY HAVING THE TRUE COURAGE OF HEART, TO LOOK WITHIN SELF AND SEE THE ROOT THINKING THAT CREATED ALL SUCH THINGS, AND NOT ALLOW EACH ITSELF TO USE IT AGAIN???

to remove bias, or hate against another, which was the FIRST aught you had of religion itself???

if one despise another belief, it become the same as the belief it despise, because it make IT THE ENEMY IN ALL WORDS AND ENERGY???

how is that not the EXACT SAME THINKING HITLER WAS USING???

IF PEACE, AND NO MORE HARM NOR ATTROCITY FOR THE WORLD IS THE GOAL, then only what does NOT think SOME in the world are the culprit, which is EXACTELY WHAT INDICTING A BELIEF DOES, can or will create such peace???

to indict a belief, is only but to create more HITLER THINKING IN THE MINDS OF ALL WHO BELIEVE SUCH IS OF PEACE, that another religion, so then another people's, are as less, as unintelligent, as less insightful, and as the villian's, rallying then many to believe such people's to be as hate monger's, contributing to the defining of people of all the other people's thru every baised and foul name you attribute unto the belief, and all the names you spew forth and define for yourself as wisdom, make you a creator of all the hate each word of your own speaking establish and perpetuate in any person hearing and believing such, which indeed, become a large load for the speaker to later bear, when all words that only perpetuate hate come back home to the sender???

peace

I know John.

But if it wasn't for people like me they'd have no one to argue with.

Then where would they be?

They were already given their own forum. They aren't happy there. The LOVE to argue.

That's why the keep coming back for more.

I'd rather write Sherrie another sunlight song.

Did you here the last one I wrote?

Letting Sunlight Out for Artgurl
Lyrics and performance by Abra
http://users.csonline.net/designer/ideas/artgurl.mp3

Then there's the love song I did for Jess Lee

Wuduju for Jess Lee
Lyrics and performance by Abra
(She gets a whole web page because of the need for English translation)
http://users.csonline.net/designer/ideas/wurduju.htm

Then there's the love song I did for some guy who's lost in fantasy world.

Imayokpa ona Ayokpachi
Lyrics and performance by Abra
(another web page due to the need for English Translation)
http://users.csonline.net/designer/ideas/smiless.htm


Then there's the Just Say Hi Dust Bunny Boogie
http://users.csonline.net/designer/bunny/bunny.htm


Then there's me:

The Dust Bunny of the GR forums.



And Jess and Sherrie and Smiless:

<---- Smiless

And we can't forget MorningSong and Yellowrose:

Ha ha

I wouldn't argue with what you say.

Although you made me look like a half breed of rat with bunny or something jumping up and down there! lol


Really nice songs you did. Music should be the best spiritual practice of all times. Just singing your heart out and enjoying good times. I just don't think my singing would do any justice for anyone.

I sing worse then a alleycat! I mean you haven't heard bad until you heard me

but I can bake a great chocolate cake! Well at least I think I can

Less correct than what David?

I'm saying that all religions are false!

I'm actually in agreement with MorningSong.

God isn't interested in RELIGION!

Except unlike MorningSong I don't support any particular religion.

Keep in mind that Pantheism isn't a religion!

There may be many religions that are based on a pantheisic view, but pantheism itself is NOT a religion. It has no dogma, and makes no claims about what God WANTS from anyone.

I'm against ALL RELIGIONS. Especially the ones that claim to SPEAK FOR GOD.

So I'm not denouncing one in favor of another. We can all believe in spirituality or not without claiming to KNOW what God wants from someone ELSE!

I'm also not out to convert anyone.

In fact, I almost always respond to PROSELYTING or claims that some particular religion can be PROVED to be FROM GOD!

I'm saying that NO RELIGION is FROM GOD!

Nary a one!

But that doesn't mean that God doesn't exist (or that spirituality doesn't exist).

All it means is that no one has the right to tell anyone else what God wants from THEM!

Yet this is precisly what religions do that claim to have a book that is the WORD of GOD!

I say that NO BOOK is the WORD of GOD.

None, zip, zilch.

If our creator has something to say to us, we'll KNOW IT!

And it wouldn't end up being written in some ancient arbitrary book that was used to suppress and murder non-believers.

I denounce everyone who claims to SPEAK FOR GOD!

Let God speak for God.

In fact, as irnoic as it may seem that was the very tenant of Protestantism when it first protested against the Catholic Chruch and the authority of the Pope.

But now look at the Protestants! They have become far worse than the Pope! They are doing precisely what they protested against!

They all claim to SPEAK FOR JESUS!

Since no book is the word of god

then

what about those little scribbly things on cave walls?

words of god maybe or a cave woman having a bad hair day

Probably just a cave woman having a bad hair day.

But then again, maybe we should pay attention to what she says. There may be some deep-rooted wisdom in her bad hair.

if one declare a book "of god", then it define for god by defining what is or is not of god???

???

if one declare a book "not of god", then it define for god by defining what is or is not of god???

???

depends on the woman. Some are very grouchy when they have a bad hair day

Well I am off to make some vegetable stir fry. I bought a wok and a Asian cookbook. We'll see how that goes

Most people have no problem denouncing Zeus as not God¿¿¿

I really don't care what people want to believe¿¿¿

But if they want to proselytize their belief as the word of God¿¿¿

Then owl question it¿¿¿

That's were I'm coming from¿¿¿

Okee Dokee¿¿¿

¿¿¿

¿¿¿

lol...

abra, abra, oh dear fine man ye be, great fine man so loving and friendly, that stand strong and knowing and fighting for truth, questioning as divine what lay as sublime, working for peace for all good to entreat, so the angel's the gods thor and zeus, of abraham and jesus one and all it be, this happy day all doth agree, to deem abra a dear patron saint be the decree, so set forth decree and make pledge to thee, to send thee fine blessings for your great works ye sow, and declare unto you gifts of the universe to know, sent to your door fine blessings galore, reepings of grand good and time for the good harvest bell, the grand knowings of all heaven and hell to the quell, wisdom in thee hands and ears the gods shall whisper and tell.

peace dear abra...

ps abra...

advance warning...

please refrain from cart wheels in the lawn, or summers sults thru the air, of course, that is, IF you can, lol...

thank you to all that posted in this thread I love getting all points of view agreeable or not its interesting theres been a few good laughs in here as well

You are welcome. That will be $9.99 check or deposit at

National Bank Of Miami

Account -1212121212