Jess642,

Thank you. At least one person here seems to understand me.

I might add that this is way, as a humanitarian, I despise indoctrinated
religions.

They end up preaching the doctrine, instead of helping people find god
in their own way.

In fact, they force the rejection of other’s people’s personal paths
thus leading to intolerance and war.

Spider>

Pride? How can I have pride in something that is greater than me by an
imeasureable amount.

I can only have faith in this. Pride would limit my ability to feel the
spirit. I live my life to feel that spirit. It is a boundless ocean
and I have but gotten my feet wet in its glory.

Great question Invisible.

My personal views on organized religion aside ...


I don't think it is either religion or the people ... I think it is
both.

Religious doctrines teach about God and life from a particular point of
view - that seems exclusive to me thus creating a scenario of us vs
them.

It is then up to individuals to seek clarity and understanding and to
question and expand.

Faith is wonderful ... blind faith is dangerous.

Abracadabra wrote:

I’m glad you are amused, and sorry that you feel offended.

I have come to the rational conclusion that the Bible was written by men
for their own purpose. I’ve told you many times that this is by belief.
I’ve come to this conclusion based on much thought and consideration.

Therefore I simply do not believe that the book has anything at all to
do with any god.

So your suggestion that I am placing myself above an “Almighty God” is
an utterly absurd and totally incorrect accusation. It simply shows that
you haven’t been comprehending my posts.

=========================================================================================
SpiderCMB Replied:

Abracadabra said: "I have come to the rational conclusion that the Bible
was written by men for their own purpose."

Did you know that by saying that the Bible was just written by men you
are directly calling my religion false. You aren't just saying you are
right, but you are calling my religion wrong.

Abracadabra said: "In fact, they force the rejection of other’s people’s
personal paths thus leading to intolerance and war. "

My religion teaches that the Bible was inspired by God, you just
rejected that "personal path".

Abracadabra said: "Your belief rejects his personal path. "

Kinda like how you consistantly reject mine?

Hypocrite much?

Also, as I have posted before...

Romans 2:14
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of
the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves,
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Non-Christians are a "law to themselves" and Christians aren't to judge
them or assume they are going to hell. It's possible that if you live a
good life, but never love or accept Jesus, that Jesus will accept the
person regardless. I repeat the things tha Jesus taught, but there is
always the possiblity that anyone, of any religion, will be accepted by
Jesus.

I teach about the guaranteed way to God that Jesus taught.

I do believe if you love God regardless your faith. U have to be
tolerant with those who don't have ur same beliefs.
If u don't do it, u are a hypocrite.
My Lord told that to the jews who preached and preached, but never
practiced what they preached. He called them hypocrites.
And we are hypocrites in the same level, when we talk about God, and we
judge our brothers and sisters for what they believe.

Tolerance and faith are not opposites of each other. You can be
tolerant of others faith, such as celebrating Diwali with your Hindu
friends. They can tell you about giants being killed with fire and all
the various gods, heros and demons they have, without you feeling
insulted. They accept their religion as the truth, but you can accept
yours as truth too. You can both think you are right without conflict.
But when they ask you about Jesus, you don't have to say "Some people
think he might be the son of God, if you believe in God and that he can
have a son." If they ask you about Jesus, you can say "He is the son of
God, who was offered as a blood sacrifice for our sins". Don't be
afraid of your faith. I have never talked to anyone who was a Muslim or
Hindu who suggested that their religion wasn't the absolute truth. That
doesn't have to be an insult, it doesn't have to be offensive, unless
you decided to be insulted or offended.

Spider>

I thank you for this post. Not being familiar with the bible as are you
I had no idea this jem was in it.

Romans 2:14
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of
the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves,
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Non-Christians are a "law to themselves" and Christians aren't to judge
them or assume they are going to hell. It's possible that if you live a
good life, but never love or accept Jesus, that Jesus will accept the
person regardless. I repeat the things tha Jesus taught, but there is
always the possiblity that anyone, of any religion, will be accepted by
Jesus.
____________________________________________________________
This is a very nice quote and you have succeeded in affirming my faith
in the message of the annointed one whith this quote.
I appriecate the comment you add as to wether or not Jesus would accept
me as I know how high a reguard you place upon this prophet. Thank you.

That said I do wish to make clear my faith upon this subject...
Having been accepted by the father I will acknowledge the accension of
the son but my faith, indeed my very life, belongs to the father.

i do feel that my religion is the right one...for me.

i feel no compulsion to convert you...or to sway you...or to beat you
over the head with it. it's a part of me, of who i am...and i'm very
secure with myself.

I like your point of view lulu.

It is on the last day you that opens the gate at the omega/alpha of your
life.

thank you.

in the long run...i'm the only one responsible for me.

Jess you commented:

Conviction is admirable when accompanied by tolerance.

There are those within certain religions who have both conviction and
tolerance, however, that will NEVER displace thier belief that they are
correct. It is difficult for anyone who believs they have the truth to
stand by and listen to and watch others fall from the path of 'your'
truth. At the very least for some, it is necessary to speak their
truth. For they are so convinced of it's merit that they want to share
it. In fact in some religions, it is required that they proclaim their
faith to other, to show others the way, to evangilize. In these things
there can be no tolerance.

The simple fact is, that for many, when light is given without
conversion, they must continue to try, or to walk away, for to stay
without trying would be to consort with evil, thereby putting one's own
everlasting life in jeopardy.

The biggest point in religious wars is, not to convert but, to destry
that which is evil.

The only way to ever promote tolerance within religious groups is to
'change' the dogma established within those groups.

It is clear by these posts that many have begun that change, and that
others fight for the continued established religion of more ancient
times.

Lulu, TlW, AB and Red, I thank you all for your input.
I'm here to learn and to try to understand, and each of you is a teacher
to me in his/her way.

Red wrote:
“The only way to ever promote tolerance within religious groups is to
'change' the dogma established within those groups.”

This is my view as well. And for me (and obviously for Red too since
she proclaims to be an atheist), this point of view is not even a
religion one, but rather a humanitarian point of view.

I have no desire to ‘convert’ anyone to any particular belief. My only
desire is help people to see the difference between dogma and
spirituality.

Dogma is a set of predefined ‘rules’ and ‘beliefs’ that people who
follow the dogma must adhere to. As Red points out this leads to
intolerance because the dogma is clear about how people should act.
Therefore anyone who doesn’t adhere to the dogma is considered to be a
heathen, and basically an enemy of their God. Their dogma has become
their God. Take away their dogma and you take away their God.

But as Red also suggests, many people are clearly showing that they have
found god directly. You can destroy all the dogma in the world and you
haven’t even come close to touching their god, because their god is not
dependent on any dogma. Their god lives within their hearts with
totally unconditional love that does not rely on any conditions set
forth by any dogma.

If the whole world could come to know god in this way there would be
conflict. No dogma to argue over. No dogma to force intolerance and
war. The world could be as one.

~ Imagine ~
By John Lennon

Imagine there's no Heaven
It's easy if you try
No hell below us
Above us only sky
Imagine all the people
Living for today

Imagine there's no countries
It isn't hard to do
Nothing to kill or die for
And no religion too
Imagine all the people
Living life in peace

You may say that I'm a dreamer
But I'm not the only one
I hope someday you'll join us
And the world will be as one

Imagine no possessions
I wonder if you can
No need for greed or hunger
A brotherhood of man
Imagine all the people
Sharing all the world

You may say that I'm a dreamer
But I'm not the only one
I hope someday you'll join us
And the world will live as one

~~~

Notice that nowhere does Lennon denounce god, but he clearly denounces
dogmatic religion and points to it as something that people will kill
and die for.

Like Lennon, I too hope that someday the world can live as one.

Thanks Abracadabra.

One of my favorite songs.

Abra, you have such a clear way of putting things. I got chills the
moment I saw the the word 'Imagine', oddly that tune was in my head.
weird.

Thanks James...I just sang along...I went hunting for my guitar...to
find my daughter has it..

I thought it would be a good idea to dig that one out.
Of course, some of the people who posted in this thread are still here.
But there is a whole new set of posters, and it would be interesting to hear what they have to say

This is a very interesting thread! I agreed with a lot of what Abrcadabra said. I still have a lot to learn, but my views at this point are... one's spirituality is a very private, personal experience. I've had some interesting (to say the least) conversations with relatives who are convinced I'm bound for Hell because I don't believe as they do. I usually smile and nod a lot, lol, and try to steer the conversation away from religion.

all the colors will blend into one, when the time is right and the tides are won, to each his own, to each is owned, all will gather at the harmonious tone.

We're all human, and some of humanities biggest downfalls just lye within the fact that most humans try to pick each other apart and see how they work. People focus on why they wear the colors they wear, why the talk the way they talk, why they think the way they think, why they believe the way they believe. This over analysis causes a sense of people judging one another on a daily basis, most would say only God shall judge, others will say NO ONE can judge.

least to say...we're fascinated by one another...and attempt to reason with one another that more over turns into an argument. Light will never be perceived the same way it is perceived for one person...at least not in this life time...I enjoy hearing everyone's thoughts, sometimes I am very tolerant, and other times...have no tolerance at all...for me...the times I am intolerant...is when words/symbols/the belief itself, is forced into a conversation where it doesn't belong...

Some have high tolerance, and some don't...sometimes it's the way the religion/belief is being taught, and of course, if you take that into consideration, since it's being taught by an individual, it is the individual's fault for teaching in a biased manner full of intolerance for others who do not think as he/she does.

all I can say beyond that...is that my post amount shows my tolerance actually lol...I've noticed something good and bad about me very recently...even in my studies at school...people will be talking about something I know certain facts about, or something I just want to add too...sometimes it's for the good of the conversation...and sometimes...it's for the worst...at any rate...online I write my entire statement...click highlight all...select copy...and erase all of it..and save my thoughts in wordpad...at school...I just choose to not raise my hand..shortly after I tell myself why?..what difference will it make?...sometimes I do believe it will make a difference, whether it be good or bad.but...sometimes..I just choose to not add my 2 cents unless someones asks for it.

with these eyes, the world looks beautiful with the many colors I see. I wouldn't change it, unless in grandscale, it began to hurt others in an exceedingly hastily manner...

What I gather from everyone's input on most threads, is individual knowledge and experience..sometimes very fascinating...that sometimes I can add to my knowledge and understanding, something I may have experienced myself and did not know exactly what I was experiencing, or sometimes I just realize I'm not the only one who goes through such experiences.

I got no idea if this is even worth postin up here, sry for it's length