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| Topic: Something to think about... | |
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Edited by
raiderfan_32
on
Tue 03/10/09 03:47 PM
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you don't think that my 2 years in there getting a 4.o was sweat enough especially when i had to memorize the math because i dropped out of high school in the 10th grade? i busted my arse harder than anyone there because they at least knew the math for the formulas already!!!!! don't tell me that i owe more sweat by paying them goddamn ****ers more money than it was worth!!!!!! that's wrong!!!! nah, man, you did well. No one's taking that away from you.. I'm not here to stroke your ego or anything though.. what can I say? sometimes you get a bite of a turd sandwich.. a 2 year associate's is just the start.. you need to get your bachelor's to be and stay competitive.. a four year bachelor's degree is something that's invaluable in the work force. I'm not saying it ain't expensive.. hell I could buy a king cab dually or a really nice mustang for what I owe, but I ain't complaining.. my 4yr undergrad and still-ongoing grad school is well worth the price and debt.. you can never be too educated**.. my field requires a masters for entry level positions.. sucks in a way but rocks (hehe) in another.. but if you don't want to get left on the porch.. you know what they say.. (**well I take that back.. there are a few people I know who are highly over educated for all the good they do..) |
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Here is the thing:
There is no "store" where we would see "shelves" full of future "levels of life". We can't go there, buy an item, and expect a salary. The way it works, is that you have to figure out what you want to do. If, it is the money that you want to do the most, then you don't pick what you like to do, or what pays now, or what is cool to do. You think of what the people around you need the most. Then you aim at the most decisive level in that field, and get the tools and the skills of the trade, and later, the experience and a reputation. This is how one makes big money. Some stupid college may offer you some degree for a million bucks. So what? What guarantees, that the degree offered will be the one requested the most? Further, should there be any guarantee of such kind? Is it even possible to know what will be the most requested? No, No, and NO! It is impossible to guarantee, and further, it would be highly immoral if such a store ever existed. Why? Because, then every stupid assh0le, can just go, pay and get his degree, and there would be no use for what makes you human, the intelligence and your ability to find what others weren't able to find or see. There has to be a battle for survival. Without it, we will just regress and die off. Now, think2deep, I am thinking you're just having fun. Because you're way to smart to not know already what I have just explained. I saw how quickly you reacted on the optics whiff. Most likely, you want folks to get pissed and start bashing you, so you can have fun. You're not getting me pissed, I know you better than that, dude! 
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I guess this thread now has gone way far from the question "Does the end justify the means?". Oh well.
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I do believe in the qualities that I said. In my eyes, your friend is just a bad as the other people that are screwing the welfare system. He IS screwing the system and no rationalization justifies that to me. The law is the law. If one had the qualities that I mentioned, they wouldn't be doing what he's doing by definition of those words. And, provided a man has those characteristics, what would he be doing in this situation? Bend down, pull his pants down, and say here, have me any way you want, mister big balls president? How disgusting. Wow, what a way with words here, Nogames. A man with those characteristics would be following the law, IMO. |
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Edited by
Winx
on
Wed 03/11/09 07:33 AM
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The portion of the new stimulus which will be used for welfare is 1.1%. For Wall Street financial bailouts-19.7% Why pick on the disabled and those forced to collect welfare, just because a few abuse it? I don't understand it myself, Fanta. It's a slippery slope, to say that it is o.k to steal as long as you don't take more than 1.1 percent. - Either you must agree that this is wrong, because it is a robbery, no matter how much is taken. - Or, you must show that it is in fact, not a robbery. - A third choice, would be to draw a line, of how much stealing is o.k. In this case, we should not punish anyone that is poor, stealing or robbing that much or less. You can't allow the president what is not allowed to a last poor shmack. I don't consider it to be robbery or stealing. It is my duty and it is the law. |
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Edited by
nogames39
on
Wed 03/11/09 09:03 AM
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by Winx: I don't consider it to be robbery or stealing. It is my duty and it is the law. It is not a duty, nor the law, because if any law opposes the constitution, such law is null and void. It was never the law. to vote on the property of others. Consequently. it isn't a law now. What you wanted to say that you, personally have no problem with theft and armed robbery. And that currently, the government has successfully usurped and is enforcing the powers not reserved to it either by the people or the states. "To take from one, because it is thought that his own industry and that of his fathers has acquired too much, in order to spare others, who, or whose fathers have not exercised equal industry and skill, is to violate arbitrarily the first principle of association, 'the guarantee to every one of a free exercise of his industry, and the fruits acquired by it." --Thomas Jefferson "The democracy will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not." --Thomas Jefferson "I predict future happiness for Americans if they can prevent the government from wasting the labors of the people under the pretense of taking care of them." --Thomas Jefferson "My reading of history convinces me that most bad government results from too much government." --Thomas Jefferson |
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Edited by
Winx
on
Wed 03/11/09 09:48 AM
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by Winx: I don't consider it to be robbery or stealing. It is my duty and it is the law. It is not a duty, nor the law, because if any law opposes the constitution, such law is null and void. It was never the law. to vote on the property of others. Consequently. it isn't a law now. What you wanted to say that you, personally have no problem with theft and armed robbery. And that currently, the government has successfully usurped and is enforcing the powers not reserved to it either by the people or the states. I said what I wanted to say. Don't put words into my mouth. 
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Actually I absolutely agree with you, I never would advocate that we cheapen higher education, I don't want a doctor working on me that doesn't want to be there. I know rich kids that did exactly as you said, they dropped out, they would rather live off daddy's allowances than work that hard. I get that. But there are lots of young people from all walks of life who are not rich and who are dedicated and willing to sacrifice that will never get the chance do to finances, why not make some parts of the process easier, the financial burden alone must make it difficult to focus on study.. I see people in emergency rooms that are overworked, it's wrong and it's dangerous to the people they serve, don't understand why it's like that unless the health industry only wants to support a certain number of doctors? Dont know, but there has to be a way to make things more balanced. ok, that's fine.. the socio/economically disadvanaged CAN go to college if they want to.. They can do as I and millions of other Americans have done and that is to get loans and grants to go to school.. I'm way in debt because of school and I'll spend the better part of my working working career paying off those federal loans. Why change that? is it too much to ask that one sacrifice something of himself to better himself? there's no better investment in oneself than to become educated.. why "teleport" folks down a road than so mnay others have worn out the soles of their shoes walking? how does that advance any real socially cognizant mentality? how does it benefit someone to have it handed to them, either by mommy and daddy or by Big Brother? What's the difference between the coutry club crybaby and the hoodrat if they're both going to university on someone else's nickel? niether is paying for it.. why would either appreciate it as much or make as much of the opportunity as if they had to pay for it themselves?? Forgive me but I am having difficulty understanding that logic. Why not help people to make things a bit easier. My mother whined about having to walk to school in 10 inches of snow. Every week we heard the same thing. Her own anger at struggle made her bitter and was wasted on me. I found everything an adventure even walking to school in the snow, but I certainly appreciated it when I did not have to, because though it was an adventure it was also difficult. We have technology for a reason always did, designed to make life less harsh. Would you want to have your children go back to pre technology to make sure they understood how hard you have it? So because you didn't luck out in time to get this a bit easier, no one else should? People try to make the lives of their children less harsh than they went through, that doesn't mean their kids are going to be any less devoted to learning. So why teleport? Because it's with in our grasp to do so, and why not? Why would you want people to struggle? To prove how strong their ego is? Would you force someone to drag a huge load up a set of stairs if you had an elevator? Why do we always assume that struggle makes a person stronger, I mean yes it can but that doesn't mean everyone must struggle to get that, not every one needs harsh lessons to make them stronger. People who are not going to put in effort are not going to put in effort even when made easier, I can't worry about them. If it had been in my power to lesson your burden and not leave you paying debt through out your career would you find me wishing you failure, or just wanting to lighten your load so that one day you might pass that savings on? |
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Some don't care about "sense", they wish to incite anger and hatred. Logic plays no part in this game.
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Actually I absolutely agree with you, I never would advocate that we cheapen higher education, I don't want a doctor working on me that doesn't want to be there. I know rich kids that did exactly as you said, they dropped out, they would rather live off daddy's allowances than work that hard. I get that. But there are lots of young people from all walks of life who are not rich and who are dedicated and willing to sacrifice that will never get the chance do to finances, why not make some parts of the process easier, the financial burden alone must make it difficult to focus on study.. I see people in emergency rooms that are overworked, it's wrong and it's dangerous to the people they serve, don't understand why it's like that unless the health industry only wants to support a certain number of doctors? Dont know, but there has to be a way to make things more balanced. ok, that's fine.. the socio/economically disadvanaged CAN go to college if they want to.. They can do as I and millions of other Americans have done and that is to get loans and grants to go to school.. I'm way in debt because of school and I'll spend the better part of my working working career paying off those federal loans. Why change that? is it too much to ask that one sacrifice something of himself to better himself? there's no better investment in oneself than to become educated.. why "teleport" folks down a road than so mnay others have worn out the soles of their shoes walking? how does that advance any real socially cognizant mentality? how does it benefit someone to have it handed to them, either by mommy and daddy or by Big Brother? What's the difference between the coutry club crybaby and the hoodrat if they're both going to university on someone else's nickel? niether is paying for it.. why would either appreciate it as much or make as much of the opportunity as if they had to pay for it themselves?? Forgive me but I am having difficulty understanding that logic. Why not help people to make things a bit easier. My mother whined about having to walk to school in 10 inches of snow. Every week we heard the same thing. Her own anger at struggle made her bitter and was wasted on me. I found everything an adventure even walking to school in the snow, but I certainly appreciated it when I did not have to, because though it was an adventure it was also difficult. We have technology for a reason always did, designed to make life less harsh. Would you want to have your children go back to pre technology to make sure they understood how hard you have it? So because you didn't luck out in time to get this a bit easier, no one else should? People try to make the lives of their children less harsh than they went through, that doesn't mean their kids are going to be any less devoted to learning. So why teleport? Because it's with in our grasp to do so, and why not? Why would you want people to struggle? To prove how strong their ego is? Would you force someone to drag a huge load up a set of stairs if you had an elevator? Why do we always assume that struggle makes a person stronger, I mean yes it can but that doesn't mean everyone must struggle to get that, not every one needs harsh lessons to make them stronger. People who are not going to put in effort are not going to put in effort even when made easier, I can't worry about them. If it had been in my power to lesson your burden and not leave you paying debt through out your career would you find me wishing you failure, or just wanting to lighten your load so that one day you might pass that savings on? for the same reason you teach a kid long division before you put a calculator in his hand.. you have to earn it. |
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Actually I absolutely agree with you, I never would advocate that we cheapen higher education, I don't want a doctor working on me that doesn't want to be there. I know rich kids that did exactly as you said, they dropped out, they would rather live off daddy's allowances than work that hard. I get that. But there are lots of young people from all walks of life who are not rich and who are dedicated and willing to sacrifice that will never get the chance do to finances, why not make some parts of the process easier, the financial burden alone must make it difficult to focus on study.. I see people in emergency rooms that are overworked, it's wrong and it's dangerous to the people they serve, don't understand why it's like that unless the health industry only wants to support a certain number of doctors? Dont know, but there has to be a way to make things more balanced. ok, that's fine.. the socio/economically disadvanaged CAN go to college if they want to.. They can do as I and millions of other Americans have done and that is to get loans and grants to go to school.. I'm way in debt because of school and I'll spend the better part of my working working career paying off those federal loans. Why change that? is it too much to ask that one sacrifice something of himself to better himself? there's no better investment in oneself than to become educated.. why "teleport" folks down a road than so mnay others have worn out the soles of their shoes walking? how does that advance any real socially cognizant mentality? how does it benefit someone to have it handed to them, either by mommy and daddy or by Big Brother? What's the difference between the coutry club crybaby and the hoodrat if they're both going to university on someone else's nickel? niether is paying for it.. why would either appreciate it as much or make as much of the opportunity as if they had to pay for it themselves?? Forgive me but I am having difficulty understanding that logic. Why not help people to make things a bit easier. My mother whined about having to walk to school in 10 inches of snow. Every week we heard the same thing. Her own anger at struggle made her bitter and was wasted on me. I found everything an adventure even walking to school in the snow, but I certainly appreciated it when I did not have to, because though it was an adventure it was also difficult. We have technology for a reason always did, designed to make life less harsh. Would you want to have your children go back to pre technology to make sure they understood how hard you have it? So because you didn't luck out in time to get this a bit easier, no one else should? People try to make the lives of their children less harsh than they went through, that doesn't mean their kids are going to be any less devoted to learning. So why teleport? Because it's with in our grasp to do so, and why not? Why would you want people to struggle? To prove how strong their ego is? Would you force someone to drag a huge load up a set of stairs if you had an elevator? Why do we always assume that struggle makes a person stronger, I mean yes it can but that doesn't mean everyone must struggle to get that, not every one needs harsh lessons to make them stronger. People who are not going to put in effort are not going to put in effort even when made easier, I can't worry about them. If it had been in my power to lesson your burden and not leave you paying debt through out your career would you find me wishing you failure, or just wanting to lighten your load so that one day you might pass that savings on? for the same reason you teach a kid long division before you put a calculator in his hand.. you have to earn it. For some reason we are not on the same page, raiderfan. I understand one has to learn it, that is not what I am talking about at all. But I am weiry of retyping the same thing over, so I will just leave it at that. |
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Edited by
raiderfan_32
on
Wed 03/11/09 11:55 AM
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you're right, we're not onthe same page. why do they teach history? why study the classics? why does west point teach classes in ancient military warfare? soldiers put down the hoplongs and pila a long time ago.. so why do they still study the battle at thermoplyae?
why do they teach us about pythagoras and keppler? why bother studying the roots of algebra and calculus? all things have to be put in historical perspective.. or else it's meaningless. that's what I mean about education.. you haveto go through that academic hazing. there's a reason and a design behind the flunk out rates in freshman college classes like chem I and calculus. Not everybody makes it and it's for a reason. you have to make it through the fire. |
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you're right, we're not onthe same page. why do they teach history? why study the classics? why does west point teach classes in ancient military warfare? soldiers put down the hoplongs and pila a long time ago.. so why do they still study the battle at thermoplyae? why do they teach us about pythagoras and keppler? why bother studying the roots of algebra and calculus? all things have to be put in historical perspective.. or else it's meaningless. that's what I mean about education.. you haveto go through that academic hazing. there's a reason and a design behind the flunk out rates in freshman college classes like chem I and calculus. Not everybody makes it and it's for a reason. you have to make it through the fire. But who has the right to tell others what fire they must endure? You? Me? Who? One cannot say what anothers tests in life have to be to be proven worthy. So how do you get around that? There is only one way. Worth has to be given by the person themselves, not an outside entity. |
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Edited by
raiderfan_32
on
Wed 03/11/09 12:13 PM
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you're right, we're not onthe same page. why do they teach history? why study the classics? why does west point teach classes in ancient military warfare? soldiers put down the hoplongs and pila a long time ago.. so why do they still study the battle at thermoplyae? why do they teach us about pythagoras and keppler? why bother studying the roots of algebra and calculus? all things have to be put in historical perspective.. or else it's meaningless. that's what I mean about education.. you haveto go through that academic hazing. there's a reason and a design behind the flunk out rates in freshman college classes like chem I and calculus. Not everybody makes it and it's for a reason. you have to make it through the fire. But who has the right to tell others what fire they must endure? You? Me? Who? One cannot say what anothers tests in life have to be to be proven worthy. So how do you get around that? There is only one way. Worth has to be given by the person themselves, not an outside entity. oddly enough, I stopped short of preemptively answering that question. for some, the fire is engineering school or studying science, history or art. For others, it's a lifelong interest in engines that takes them to vocational school. some get jobs early in adulthood and make their career in the service industry and end up owning and running restaurants or becoming execute chefs.. some people get jobs, having learned drafting, in engineering firms ad end up running the place. I know a guy who did just that. High school diploma, learned how to draw, learned the plumbing codes and plumbing design and 20 years later, he's got the corner office and his business card reads 'Division President'. but in any case, you have to learn a craft and apply it. and yes, there will be a time and a place where one must prove his worth to someone. the most successful prove it everyday and earn more responsibility as they go along. but in a way you're right, one must bestow value unto himself, no one else will do it for him. no man can force another to ambition and drive. |
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you're right, we're not onthe same page. why do they teach history? why study the classics? why does west point teach classes in ancient military warfare? soldiers put down the hoplongs and pila a long time ago.. so why do they still study the battle at thermoplyae? why do they teach us about pythagoras and keppler? why bother studying the roots of algebra and calculus? all things have to be put in historical perspective.. or else it's meaningless. that's what I mean about education.. you haveto go through that academic hazing. there's a reason and a design behind the flunk out rates in freshman college classes like chem I and calculus. Not everybody makes it and it's for a reason. you have to make it through the fire. Raiderfan, with all due respect, non of that was my point, I agree most of what you just said here, but it was not my point, forgive me for not being more clear some how. I will chalk that up to spending way to many late night hours on here last night and I am just not being clear for some reason. We might return to the subject again one day and I will try to be more awake.. |
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you're right, we're not onthe same page. why do they teach history? why study the classics? why does west point teach classes in ancient military warfare? soldiers put down the hoplongs and pila a long time ago.. so why do they still study the battle at thermoplyae? why do they teach us about pythagoras and keppler? why bother studying the roots of algebra and calculus? all things have to be put in historical perspective.. or else it's meaningless. that's what I mean about education.. you haveto go through that academic hazing. there's a reason and a design behind the flunk out rates in freshman college classes like chem I and calculus. Not everybody makes it and it's for a reason. you have to make it through the fire. Raiderfan, with all due respect, non of that was my point, I agree most of what you just said here, but it was not my point, forgive me for not being more clear some how. I will chalk that up to spending way to many late night hours on here last night and I am just not being clear for some reason. We might return to the subject again one day and I will try to be more awake.. i understand.. the other part of college though is that you get the most of out it when you feel the sting of writing that tuition check and pay for those books, whether it be right then out of pocket or years later as you write that student loan check.. ever heard the phrase, "drive it like it's stolen" or "drive it like a rent car"? the institutions of higher learning owe it to themselves, their students and alumni to protect the sanctity of the institution. if every tom, richard and harry is rammed through colleges all over the country, all that will be accomplished will be the butchering of the value a bachelor's degree.. |
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you're right, we're not onthe same page. why do they teach history? why study the classics? why does west point teach classes in ancient military warfare? soldiers put down the hoplongs and pila a long time ago.. so why do they still study the battle at thermoplyae? why do they teach us about pythagoras and keppler? why bother studying the roots of algebra and calculus? all things have to be put in historical perspective.. or else it's meaningless. that's what I mean about education.. you haveto go through that academic hazing. there's a reason and a design behind the flunk out rates in freshman college classes like chem I and calculus. Not everybody makes it and it's for a reason. you have to make it through the fire. Raiderfan, with all due respect, non of that was my point, I agree most of what you just said here, but it was not my point, forgive me for not being more clear some how. I will chalk that up to spending way to many late night hours on here last night and I am just not being clear for some reason. We might return to the subject again one day and I will try to be more awake.. i understand.. the other part of college though is that you get the most of out it when you feel the sting of writing that tuition check and pay for those books, whether it be right then out of pocket or years later as you write that student loan check.. ever heard the phrase, "drive it like it's stolen" or "drive it like a rent car"? I would agree that that was necessary for you, but not for all. I think it also depends on the person, sometimes the love of a specific career is so strong that even if the tuition is free the motivation is still very strong. Different strokes i guess, I don't see any particular value in it being a painful financial burden to ensure motivation if that makes any sense. I just thought that if we did allow people a free education it would benefit us all because money would not be the single motivation in the end and it would cost less for everyone, even those who chose to live simply and don't have a high powered career, but the way our system works everyone is almost expected to go for the money and lots of it, making it more difficult to choose a career that makes less but is more satisfying spiritually or other wise. Does that make any sense of am I just a sap? |
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Edited by
raiderfan_32
on
Wed 03/11/09 02:44 PM
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you're right, we're not onthe same page. why do they teach history? why study the classics? why does west point teach classes in ancient military warfare? soldiers put down the hoplongs and pila a long time ago.. so why do they still study the battle at thermoplyae? why do they teach us about pythagoras and keppler? why bother studying the roots of algebra and calculus? all things have to be put in historical perspective.. or else it's meaningless. that's what I mean about education.. you haveto go through that academic hazing. there's a reason and a design behind the flunk out rates in freshman college classes like chem I and calculus. Not everybody makes it and it's for a reason. you have to make it through the fire. Raiderfan, with all due respect, non of that was my point, I agree most of what you just said here, but it was not my point, forgive me for not being more clear some how. I will chalk that up to spending way to many late night hours on here last night and I am just not being clear for some reason. We might return to the subject again one day and I will try to be more awake.. i understand.. the other part of college though is that you get the most of out it when you feel the sting of writing that tuition check and pay for those books, whether it be right then out of pocket or years later as you write that student loan check.. ever heard the phrase, "drive it like it's stolen" or "drive it like a rent car"? I would agree that that was necessary for you, but not for all. I think it also depends on the person, sometimes the love of a specific career is so strong that even if the tuition is free the motivation is still very strong. Different strokes i guess, I don't see any particular value in it being a painful financial burden to ensure motivation if that makes any sense. I just thought that if we did allow people a free education it would benefit us all because money would not be the single motivation in the end and it would cost less for everyone, even those who chose to live simply and don't have a high powered career, but the way our system works everyone is almost expected to go for the money and lots of it, making it more difficult to choose a career that makes less but is more satisfying spiritually or other wise. Does that make any sense of am I just a sap? I guess that just punctuates the difference in the way you and I see the world. you don't recognize that lots of kids do get to go to school for "for free" all the time. there are loads of academic, music, athletic and all kinds of other scholarships for kids that achieve. Do you want to be the one to tell them that despite the fac that they studied all the way through school, learned an instrument well, honed his or her body into a tuned athletic machine, someone that didn't bother or wasn't motivated to do any of those things is going to get the same benefit of having their schooling paid for. in other words, why give away, specifically and selectively, to some for free what others must earn?? oh and by the way, the Obama government gets to decide who, where and when and tax everybody for it.. |
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nothing in life is free. someone pays for it in some way.
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you're right, we're not onthe same page. why do they teach history? why study the classics? why does west point teach classes in ancient military warfare? soldiers put down the hoplongs and pila a long time ago.. so why do they still study the battle at thermoplyae? why do they teach us about pythagoras and keppler? why bother studying the roots of algebra and calculus? all things have to be put in historical perspective.. or else it's meaningless. that's what I mean about education.. you haveto go through that academic hazing. there's a reason and a design behind the flunk out rates in freshman college classes like chem I and calculus. Not everybody makes it and it's for a reason. you have to make it through the fire. Raiderfan, with all due respect, non of that was my point, I agree most of what you just said here, but it was not my point, forgive me for not being more clear some how. I will chalk that up to spending way to many late night hours on here last night and I am just not being clear for some reason. We might return to the subject again one day and I will try to be more awake.. i understand.. the other part of college though is that you get the most of out it when you feel the sting of writing that tuition check and pay for those books, whether it be right then out of pocket or years later as you write that student loan check.. ever heard the phrase, "drive it like it's stolen" or "drive it like a rent car"? I would agree that that was necessary for you, but not for all. I think it also depends on the person, sometimes the love of a specific career is so strong that even if the tuition is free the motivation is still very strong. Different strokes i guess, I don't see any particular value in it being a painful financial burden to ensure motivation if that makes any sense. I just thought that if we did allow people a free education it would benefit us all because money would not be the single motivation in the end and it would cost less for everyone, even those who chose to live simply and don't have a high powered career, but the way our system works everyone is almost expected to go for the money and lots of it, making it more difficult to choose a career that makes less but is more satisfying spiritually or other wise. Does that make any sense of am I just a sap? I guess that just punctuates the difference in the way you and I see the world. you don't recognize that lots of kids do get to go to school for "for free" all the time. there are loads of academic, music, athletic and all kinds of other scholarships for kids that achieve. Do you want to be the one to tell them that despite the fac that they studied all the way through school, learned an instrument well, honed his or her body into a tuned athletic machine, someone that didn't bother or wasn't motivated to do any of those things is going to get the same benefit of having their schooling paid for. in other words, why give away, specifically and selectively, to some for free what others must earn?? oh and by the way, the Obama government gets to decide who, where and when and tax everybody for it.. I do know that there are avenues for kids that are free right now, yes I am fully aware of that, but I wasn't talking about children either.. I don't want to tell any child anything other that they can achieve anything if they are willing to work hard at it. I know all about working hard, and I happen to have always enjoyed working hard.. I have clearly not made my point, so I am going to step back from this one and just let it go for now. I do appreciate your time and responses but I am headed to sleep early, I need a major break from Mingle for a couple of days.. You all have a good night... |
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