However - that statement is disengenous, because I'm sure the author of it holds fast to the idea of Abiogenesis, rather than intelligent design. So this is really a red herring.

Amen to that.

Going around telling other people that they can't be righteous until they accept the beliefs of a fanatic fundamentalist is truly destructive to humanity as a whole, and was indeed the driving force behind the Crusades, the mass murdering of the Cathers, the burning of innocent midwives, and dare I even say the motivation behind the anti-semeticism of the holocaust.

How anyone can continue to support this spiritual VIRUS with such an ungodly vengence is truly beyond belief.

So you are telling me that the documents or scrolls are accurate in its over 1400 years of existence translated into other languages, revised hundreds of times, and retold to its absolute accuracy. That there is no possibility that what is written could be misconstrued by any of the writers in any possibility?

Well that is what I call faith indeed mr. and good luck with your so called "that is a fact" statement.

I second that emotion! Hold on I am not in any parliament am I?

abra said......

Well there you have it. Proof positive that according to the Bible the genealogy of Jesus DID NOT come from David the son of Abraham because Joseph DID NOT contribute to the genology of Jesus!

REALLY

The Line of Jesus through Joseph

The book of the genealogy of Jesus Christ, the son of David, the son of Abraham. Abraham was the father of Isaac, and Isaac the father of Jacob, and Jacob the father of Judah and his brothers, and Judah the father of Perez and Zerah by Tamar, and Perez the father of Hezron, and Hezron the father of Ram, and Ram the father of Amminadab, and Amminadab the father of Nahshon, and Nahshon the father of Salmon, and Salmon the father of Boaz by Rahab, and Boaz the father of Obed by Ruth, and Obed the father of Jesse, and Jesse the father of David the king. And David was the father of Solomon by the wife of Uriah, and Solomon the father of Rehoboam, and Rehoboam the father of Abijah, and Abijah the father of Asa, and Asa the father of Jehoshaphat, and Jehoshaphat the father of Joram, and Joram the father of Uzziah, and Uzziah the father of Jotham, and Jotham the father of Ahaz, and Ahaz the father of Hezekiah, and Hezekiah the father of Manasseh, and Manasseh the father of Amos, and Amos the father of Josiah, and Josiah the father of Jechoniah and his brothers, at the time of the deportation to Babylon. And after the deportation to Babylon: Jechoniah was the father of Shealtiel, and Shealtiel the father of Zerubbabel, and Zerubbabel the father of Abiud, and Abiud the father of Eliakim, and Eliakim the father of Azor, and Azor the father of Zadok, and Zadok the father of Achim, and Achim the father of Eliud, and Eliud the father of Eleazar, and Eleazar the father of Matthan, and Matthan the father of Jacob, and Jacob the father of Joseph the husband of Mary, of whom Jesus was born, who is called Christ. So all the generations from Abraham to David were fourteen generations, and from David to the deportation to Babylon fourteen generations, and from the deportation to Babylon to the Christ fourteen generations.

According to the Bible Mary was still a virgin when Jesus was born!

SEE HOW AWESOME GOD TRULY IS STUDY ABRA


The Line of Jesus Through Mary

Jesus, when he began his ministry, was about thirty years of age, being the son (as was supposed) of Joseph, the son of Heli, the son of Matthat, the son of Levi, the son of Melchi, the son of Jannai, the son of Joseph, the son of Mattathias, the son of Amos, the son of Nahum, the son of Esli, the son of Naggai, the son of Maath, the son of Mattathias, the son of Semein, the son of Josech, the son of Joda, the son of Joanan, the son of Rhesa, the son of Zerubbabel, the son of Shealtiel, the son of Neri, the son of Melchi, the son of Addi, the son of Cosam, the son of Elmadam, the son of Er, the son of Joshua, the son of Eliezer, the son of Jorim, the son of Matthat, the son of Levi, the son of Simeon, the son of Judah, the son of Joseph, the son of Jonam, the son of Eliakim, the son of Melea, the son of Menna, the son of Mattatha, the son of Nathan, the son of David, the son of Jesse, the son of Obed, the son of Boaz, the son of Sala, the son of Nahshon, the son of Amminadab, the son of Admin, the son of Arni, the son of Hezron, the son of Perez, the son of Judah, the son of Jacob, the son of Isaac, the son of Abraham, the son of Terah, the son of Nahor, the son of Serug, the son of Reu, the son of Peleg, the son of Eber, the son of Shelah, the son of Cainan, the son of Arphaxad, the son of Shem, the son of Noah, the son of Lamech, the son of Methuselah, the son of Enoch, the son of Jared, the son of Mahalaleel, the son of Cainan, the son of Enos, the son of Seth, the son of Adam, the son of God. HELLO JESUS

So once again blows your myth right out the door. Do you not think there is a link between then all...It was a virgin birth but still through geneology linked.....


STUDY STUDY STUDY thats all I claim

Again you speak of what you don't know.....OLD LAW AND WOMEN CAN NOW BE PASTORS AND SPEAK OUT.....OH YEA THATS ME AND PROUD OF IT.

I don't hate you abra......not at all......

Where does it say this in the Bible?



Whoever said that you did?

You said, "You can not ever ever ever BE A RIGHTEOUS MAN/WOMAN AND NOT BELIEVE IN GOD'S SON....... "

Telling people that they can't be righteous if they don't agree with your opinions of faith and your personal interpretations of ancient dogma is a hateful thing to do. Period.

This is the very thing that makes dogmatic religions so dangeroius.

You think that you speak for God just because you have some really lame interpretations of an ancient dogma.

Speading hate for Jesus' sake it's such an oxymoron.

I have no doubt that I have far more repsect for the man than you ever will. And I'm even totally convinced that he as as mortal as the rest of us!

Voil


But you keep coming and giving your 2 cents don't ya...


Here are the answers that were given in the two first pages of the original OP



1.Only a fundamentalist mind is compatible with the Bible; nothing else.

2. Not even scriptures agree with other scriptures, not even people agree with all scriptures or each other about scripture and history offers no validation of an overall compatibility.

Therefore, it is the simple construct in a mind that requires an absolute difinitive concept of the separateness from all the unknown and unknowable universal laws of nature that is compatible with the Bible.


This is not answering jack....it's ramble of what she believes with no solid proof. NEXT


3. I think the Bible is open to all ways of thinking. I've read it several times and find meanings in it that i didn't get the first few times. drinker

And yes I belive evolution did happen because God let it happen. I think Adam and Eve were the first humans in evolution and God was like "ZOMG I HAS A HUMANS!" and he tested them and they failed. O_O

And yes, God talks in all caps laugh


Debbie says; This is good as far as saying that God let's evolution happen..but within a species I would add. So can take further.

4. Then we have abra rants....which we will leave at that.


4. Then Krisma wrote

Deb, I have consistently stated on this forum that the principles behind evolutionary biology need not be in direct conflict with the bible. Not at all. In fact most Roman Catholics today are fully behind the basic theory of human anthropogenesis. Notice that God lets "the earth bring forth" the plants and animals, rather than create them directly. So maybe the creationists have it all wrong. Maybe Genesis is not so anti-evolution after all.

Genesis 1

1:24 And God said, Let the earth bring forth the living creature after his kind, cattle, and creeping thing, and beast of the earth after his kind: and it was so.

"Let the earth bring forth the living creature"
Edited by Krimsa on Tue 01/06/09 03:14 PM


Debbie says again I don't think interpretation is what is written

24 And God said, "Let the land produce living creatures according to their kinds: livestock, creatures that move along the ground, and wild animals, each according to its kind." And it was so. 25 God made the wild animals according to their kinds, the livestock according to their kinds, and all the creatures that move along the ground according to their kinds. And God saw that it was good.


Each according to it's kind but God is the creator.....there was no dot that and became something from nothing. If God created all well this includes all living thing.

Then it went off onto taking scripture and misunderstanding it...which she K even admitted.....So you are wrong voil....It was not answered and still has not. Proof was not given in the first two pages as you claim....so onward ho.

I BELIEVE GOD IS INVOLVED IN ALL THAT HAPPENS INCLUDING WITH SCIENCE. IT WASN'T ASKING IS EVOLUTION COMPATIBLE WITH FAITH NOW WAS IT VOIL.

And obviously others disagree because it is still going NEXT


AND WHAT DOES BEING HOMOSEXUAL HAVE TO DO WITH ANYTHING.....REACH VOI REACH.

I DO NOT NOT NOT NOT GET IT...HAVE A PROBLEM WITH SCIENCE


I HAVE MY EVIDENCE.....FOR THE LORD MY GOD IS ALL THE EVIDENCE I NEED.

Again I have said it before.....bring on the contradiction of the Bible...Because each and every time it was misunderstand of what was read.....Did you not read voil all the ones I did with Krisma..hmmmmmmmmmm did you?


I HAVE NOT SEEN ONE CONTRADICTION THAT WASN'T PROVEN TO NOT BE.......NEXT

Abra

It's called going with the times abra...You talk of old law when it comes to women...There will and still is injustices to women....But we have come a long way baby.....

Abra said

Whoever said that you did?

DID YOU SAY THIS ABRA

And quite dangerous. Because if someone like you were in power and had control over armies then non-believers, atheists, and people of all non-Christian faiths (including Jews and Muslims) would all be in dire danger.

You truly are a perfect example of why that religion is DANGEROUS.

It CAUSES people to judge the 'righteousness' of others! angry

That's just NOT GOOD and it's NOT Godly.

There's nothing Godly in what you preach honey.

It's all just hatred for heathens.

I don't recall ever saying hate to anyone...no calling anyone a heathen your words not mine.


Abra said

Telling people that they can't be righteous if they don't agree with your opinions of faith and your personal interpretations of ancient dogma is a hateful thing to do. Period.

Debbie says: Are you sinless abra? Completely 100% sinless?

I am not......I sin all men/women will always fall short of the Glory of God.

Rants?

I point out solid facts that most people seem to be able to recognize as obvious truths.

You make wild assertions that aren't even supported by the Bible.

Again I ask:



Where does it say this in the Bible?

Or do you belong to some NEW AGE cult now?

Clearly the Biblical law is that women are to be silent in religious matters.

If that's changed since the Bible, then perhaps everything's change and non of the OLD LAW is applicable anymore.

You're just trying to establish yourself as the "Mouth of God".

Paul would roll over in his grave!

Well in the end here is the conclusion everyone!

We have those who believe in the bible and creationism as the best viable answer to how everything started

and then we have

those who don't believe in the bible and clinge to evolution and what scientists have discovered thus far as being the most viable answer on how everything started.

So here we are with two different groups believing in two different things that will have no end in site with no resolution.

So let each claim to be the victor in this long debated worn out debate. Shake hands and turn 180 degrees and walk out the door.

And don't forget to take a brochure at the front desk showing where the next best vacation can be taken this year

The question often arises when discussing the biblical records, "How can a document that has been copied over and over possibly be reliable? Everyone knows there are tons of errors in it." While it is true that the documents have been copied many times, we often have misconceptions about how they were transmitted. All ancient documents were copied by hand before the advent of the printing press in the 16th century. Great care was exercised in reproducing these manuscripts. We often assume that one copy was made and then another from that and another from that and so on, each replacing the copy it was reproduced from. This is not how manuscripts copying worked. Copyists were usually working from one or two very old documents. They would make many copies of their source copy, all the while preserving their source and comparing the copies they have made.

Josephus tells how the Jews copied the Old Testament. We have given practical proof of our reverence for our own Scriptures. For although such long ages have now passed, no one has ventured either to add, or to remove, or to alter a syllable; and it is an instinct with every Jew, from the day of his birth, to regard them as the decrees of God, to abide by them, and, if need be, cheerfully to die for them"

Josephus made no exaggeration. The Jewish copyists knew exactly how many letters were in every line of every book and how many times each word occurred in each book. This enabled them to check for errors. The Jews believed that adding any mistake to the Scriptures would be punishable by Hell - unlike the modern secretary who has many letters to type and must work hard to keep his job, and consequently feels that mistakes are inevitable. Great care is exercised with scriptures when someone holds a conviction such as this. But even with the great amount of care exercised in copying, errors have crept into the manuscripts. No one questions that spelling errors, misplaced letters, and word omissions have occurred. What is not true is that these errors have gradually built up over time so that our copies look nothing like the originals. This view was commonly held until recently.

In 1947 the accuracy of these documents was confirmed by the Dead Sea Scrolls. These scrolls were found in caves in the desert near the Dead Sea by a shepherd boy. Before the discovery of these scrolls, the earliest Old Testament manuscripts we had were from about 980 A.D. The manuscripts discovered in the caves dated from 250 B.C. to shortly after the time of Christ. In careful comparison of the manuscripts it was confirmed that the copies we had were almost precisely the same as those which date over 1000 years earlier.

No other historical literature has been so carefully preserved and historically confirmed.

When we come to the New Testament we see a similar phenomenon. There are over 5,000 Greek New Testament manuscripts in existence. This is by far more than any other historical documents, which usually have maybe a dozen copies from very late dates. The New Testament manuscripts are many and old and they are spread over a wide geographical area. What this enables the New Testament historian to do is collect manuscripts from Jerusalem and Egypt and Syria and other places and compare them for variations. And variations do exist, but as with the Old Testament they are relatively few and rarely important to the meaning of the text. What these manuscripts demonstrate is that different families of texts existed very early that were copied from the original or good copies of the original. This allows us to trace the manuscripts back to the source as one would follow the branches of a tree to get to the trunk. Aside from the manuscripts themselves, "virtually the entire New Testament could be reproduced from citations contained in the works of the early church fathers. There are some thirty-two thousand citations in the writings of the Fathers prior to the Council of Nicea. 99.8%

but true

Yes we have!

But only because we've rejected those old superstitions!

You're rights as a woman weren't given to you by the Bible, but by the STATE!

If the Christians had remained in political power you'd be sitting in church silently doing precisely what the men tell you to do.

You can thank the ATHEISTS for your feminine FREEDOM.

And the burning of bras.

no one burns my bra BUT ME!!!!

oops....i said that out loud didn't I??? think it think it think it

Sorry abra but that's what they are to me....same info different day...oh the injustices of God.....pleaseeeeeeeee

Abra be real here....if I was talking about something in the bible when I made the statement that women can speak now.....I would of gave the scripture....You didn't see me come back and drill you about the lineage of Jesus did you...and I saw after my post quiet....which is the usual for you....Don't harp on the obvious stupid....you will force me to post a cute pic about it.

The OLD TESTAMENT LAW clearly states that abra.....It doesn't apply anymore......That was tradition not what God wanted.

I don't have to establish anything sweets...

That depends on who's defining 'sin'.

If we go by the Bible all humans are born into sin. We are sinners at birth. Moreover, it claims that we can't become free of sin on our own (it claims that it's not even POSSIBLE)

But therein lies the problem.

If Humans are born into sin and there is no way to become free of sin on their own, then clearly they can't be held responsible for that!

You can't be held responsible for something that you have no control over.

So the whole idea that God creates us as sinners and then judges us to be guilty of that predicament is absurd.

That would be nothing less than a really nasty dirty trick played on us by some omnipotent and not very nice creator!

If we are going to be judged on our behavior then it MUST BE OUR CHOICE!

Otherwise the whole FREE CHOICE thing goes right out the window.

Now you ask me if I am 100% sin free.

By my definition so sin I say YES I am!

My definition of sin is to knowingfully disobey your creator.

I have NEVER DONE THAT in my entire life.

So by my definition of sin, I'm %100 percent sin free.

Moreover, if I made any mistake in that regard at all they would have been done in my very early childhood before I truly understood the concept of responsiblity (actually if you don't realize you are doing wrong things then it could hardly be considered to be willfull and knowing disobedience anwyay).

But none the less when I was in my late teens I accepted Jesus Christ as my SAVIOR and asked him to forgive all my 'sins'.

Therefore any sins that I might have had prior to that time had been washed away by Jesus anyway. So they would no longer count.

I haven't sinned since. At least not by my definition as sin being 'willfull and knowing disobedience of my creator'.

So there you have it Feral. Today I am indeed 100% sin free.

Yep, that's a FACT.

You'll have to find some other way to lay a guilt complex on me. Sin won't cut it.

ok...you 2 have 10 seconds to put your noses in a corner in a round room

ready.....set.....GO!!!!!

well that is pretty darn good then with 99.8%

that leaves only .2% left that somehow has gotten many confused doing wrong things in the name of this book for so many centuries.

and leaves alot today still confused in its teachings if some choose to learn it.

but what it is worth I hope in the end that people know that it is best to live in peace amongst each other regardless in what religion one believes in or for that matter those who don't believe at all.

What is important is we can enjoy life each and every day.

I believe everyone goes to a better place when we pass away, even those who you think will less likely make it, will make it to a better place.

All the best and good luck with the discussions on evolution, bible, or whatever else deems to be important at the moment.

The 2% was nothing as far as the meat of the Bible. And Peace always with you to sweet smiles.

Oh that's real clever. Just claim that whatever parts of the Bible you disagree with was 'just tradition' and not what God wanted.

That'll really empress the people you evanglize to.



Sorry, but if you go around telling people that they can't be righteous unless they accept your point of view then you damn well be ready to establish EVERYTHING YOU CLAIM!

You must think that YOU ARE GOD!

You just make up whatever rules you deside upon and say to people, "Ok Debbies says that you people are all sinners and need to agree with me on everything and I don't need to establish anything sweets".

You've got the Fundamentalist Virus bad honey.

Really bad.

I hope you get well soon.