Hi All,
Voil, nice to hear your voice, I've been listening to you lately, it makes me smile to know you are "real" afterall.

Interesting conversation,


I like it Creative.

As for emotion, love, in this case, I don't 'believe' there is any truth to the idea of a soul mate. I do 'believe' that somewhere inside our unconscious mind is a model,a grid,if you will, that holds all the values of what our 'ideal' mate might consist of. These are not always constructed on 'idealistic conscious thoughts' but are added, deleted and adjusted,with our experiences and how we 'internally' interpret them.

We meet a person; the lights on the grid of that template begin to shine "yes","yes", until that fateful moment when many shine. Our bodies experience that 'chemical reaction' that invokes desire - passion. If things continue to go well, more lights go on and the bonds we form begin to undergo a 'conscious'review.

This is the time when we stand back and "decide" if this will be 'forever' love. Now it takes the right mindset by both parties to make that happen. I don't believe there is such a thing as an emotion that comes from no-where. Love takes work, it takes belief, faith and the willingness of all parties to make it happen.

Abra, if emotion does not stem from the physical (as in a brain process, leading to a chemical reaction)where would you suggest it comes from? Are you saying it's imaginary, that we make it up? I don't understand?

of course I've heard of stockholms. However that's not my reality. It's their reality.
My perception of things are part of my reality. How I feel. How I react. Things that happen to ME is MY reality. I'm saying I can't define someone else's reality.
If I go out there and start brainwashing people, I am not changing their reality. They do that themselves. They choose whether or not to believe the words I am telling them. How they perceive me, is part of their reality. "reality" is individual.

Then again, what do I know anyway? Everything I saw is delusional or parnoid.

WOW.

The bottom line is . . . all the evidence is in favor of Materialism.

Science is Methodological Materialism.

Billy wrote: Emotion is a response by the brain in reaction to stimulus from the environment. The causal factors do come from outside, the emotional response is from within the brain.

Emotion is a response by the brain in reaction to stimulus? Oh how droll!

If that were the case you could simulate emotion in a computer. BUT no wait, you can't do that. Because a computer does NOT FEEL. A computer does not have feelings. It also does not actually THINK or IMAGINE.

Billy, it is THOUGHTS (as you said later,) that:

"What we think DOES engage with, and can control the chemistry of the brain."

So first you say Emotions are a response by the brain to stimulus. THEN you say that what WE THINK does engage with and can control the chemistry of the brain."

These two statements don't agree. First you regard the brain as the cause then you regard our thoughts what actually control the brain's functions.

Now I suppose if I ask you where do thoughts come from you are going to say... the brain.

That is a completely circular argument. The brain produces the thoughts and the thoughts control the brain. That does not make logical sense.

But you refuse to consider that there is a self or spirit or soul outside of this process because... you are an atheist.

It has nothing to do with the Biblical concept of God, because if that is the case, I am an atheist too.

That "delusion" is popular per the media. Do we REALLY believe in it or is it just a dangling carrot?

People chase it like a dog chases it's tail.

Being "In Love"...

Just another Religion used to control the masses.

Funches,

That's because reality is a hallucination, illusion and delusion.

I see a lot of people are not understanding.

Of course it's related to a brain process leading to chemical reactions. Our physical bodies are indeed as much a part of our existence as anything else. I'm not about to deny that.

The point I'm trying to make is that our imagination is indeed a part of that 'brain process' as you call it.

And therefore imagination is every bit as real as the brain.

I guess it's not possible to communicate what I'm trying to get at in words. The bottom line for me is that whether you take a shamanic journey in your mind, or whether you jump in your car and take a drive BOTH of those experiences are equally 'real' and I'm simply using the word 'real' here to denote an experience.

Any experience that we have is just as real as any other experience. To deny certain experiences simply because they can't be associated with 'external sensory excitation' is ludicous.

The other night I took a shamanic journey where I became and owl and flew over a meadow and through a forest. I felt the wind beneath my wings and the rustling of my feathers. I watched the trees sweep past my field of vision. I landed on the branch of a tree and felt the branch in the clutch of my claws. I could even feel the balance of the weight of my body.

It's just a dream. Even a meditative daydream. Yet the experience is real.

Does that experience not count as part of my reality simply because it didn't enter my body via my external sensory perception?

Do the fairies and animals that I meet in that forest not count as part of my experience in this reality?

They may not count to you. But they count to me because they are my "experience" in life.

If we define 'reality' in terms of what we experience, then all our experience is 'real'.

If we want to break it up into categories of what we 'define' to be real versus what we 'define' to be dreams, then sure we can do that.

But why should we?

When dreams become as vivid as reality why discount them as being not part of our reality?

We do we need to insist that only stimulus that come to us from the apparent external world counts as 'reality' whilst stimulus that comes from within is not 'reality'?

I guess that's my real question when I ask, "What is Reality?".

Is reality only that wich comes to us from our external sensory perception?

If so then what constitutes a dream?

If all we could do is dream, would we not then consider that to be reality?

If you can experience a dream would you no consider yourself to be ALIVE?

Would you not consider that dream to be your reality?

Also, if your dreams were your ONLY reality you'd focus on your dreams intently and you'd get really GOOD at dreaming!

I've only just begun to learn how to shamanic journey and I'm already having some really vivid experiences.

I've been practicing and learning about these techniques for only a few months. I'm sure that I'll only get better with practice. How real can they be?

I've had extremely vivid dreams in the past. This is one reason why I became interesting in shamanic journeying. I've decided that I want to learn how to remain conscious in these dream and even invoke them at will.

I've had dreams in the past that were so vivid they seems as real to me as anything I've ever experienced in the physical world.

If I get really good with it I may decide to go to sleep and never wake back up again.

I'll become a modern day Rip Van Winkle.

In dreams I'm not locked into the human forum. In dreams I'm truly a shapeshifter and I can become anything I so desire at my whim. I've already been flying around as various birds. I've been a tree and a wolf.

It's far more freeing that physical reality.

Delusional?

Call it what you will. It's a great experience. If it's a delusion then I'm all for becoming delusional.

I really don't care what anyone calls it. The experience is all that truly matters.

If an experience is real then the experience = reality and that reality is 'real'.

I have to disagree and here's my reasoning.

Yes, we have imagination, but when we are imagining we are in control of what is being imagined.

Example: I'm imagining having a interaction with someone I need to talk with. I'm going over what I want to present, I'm being careful to get my point accross in just the right way. Then I think "What if he/she says this? or does that?" so I adjust, for that just in case scenario.

I can do that for days, and finally when I have the conversation, not one thing I thought about, (imagined) happened or came to pass in any way like I imagined it might have, could have. In the end I just wasted a lot of time 'imagining' possibilities instead of taking the "real life" adventure.

Imagination may lead us to action, and the outcome of that action may give us new insight, but the insight came from interaction with reality, and not from inductive imagining.

Only if the 'experience' is believed as reality.

I can watch a soap opera and enjoy it all the while knowing that it is 'not real' events or people.

Some others, have been known to believe that the people in soap operas are actually 'real' characters and some people even get so involved that these characters become part of their lives and they think of them as real people in their lives.

This thinking registers in their subconscious, and eventually they can't tell what is 'real' and what is a soap opera, but it is still reality to them and can effect their lives and their emotions.

Don't have anything to post, just reading since getting back online,

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HI

“Imagination is more important than knowledge. For knowledge is limited to all we now know and understand, while imagination embraces the entire world, and all there ever will be to know and understand.” - Albert Einstein

Reality is merely an illusion, albeit a very persistent one - Albert Einstein

One of my all time favorite quotes!!



Did you read that Billy?

REALITY IS MERELY AND ILLUSION.

Yes it is a persistent one... but it is still an illusion. If that be so... then are we, the observers also an illusion?

NO!! In fact WE as observers, are the only real things in this reality. And I am not talking about our bodies either. Our bodies are holographic projections!

Yes that's right folks, we are living in some kind of holographic space-time containment field.

Welcome to weirdness.

Our bodies are but an extension of our true selves. We have equipped them with the ability to evolve organs for sensing our environment, which is an elaborate energy field of vibrations that translate into sights and sounds. All vibrations.

This is an elaborate and wonderful simulated environment for the incubation and experience of being lifeforms.

Lets call it REALITY!!

Is there a doctor in the house?

"Jill" society is Stockholm syndrome, from birth you were shape into someone else version of reality, you were given an identity and a personality that if you have a choice would not be you

if you would write your entire reality into a book, you will find millions of other books that would read the same as your

you are not even allowed to form your own original thoughts ...give it a try ....tell of just one original thought that no one in the world ever said

or let's make it easier tell of one original thought/concept that no one in this forum ever said

you won't be able to because your reality is not your own ..welcome to the Twilight Zone

I have to disagree and here's my reasoning.

Yes, we have imagination, but when we are imagining we are in control of what is being imagined.


I agree that this is precisely the thinking of the western world. This is the thinking that I was brought up believing.

Imagination is dismissed as 'just your imagination'.

And for most westerners that's all their imagination consists of because they haven't learned to 'let go'.

It's not easy to 'let go'. I don't pretend to have mastered it by far. I'm only just starting to learn the techniques. And it's just like learning anything else. These things take time, practice, and a belief that you can do it!

Yes, it requires all three, time, practice, and a belief that you can succeed. And that's true with all things whether physical or psychic.

Belief is indeed required, without a belief that it's even possible you'll never get anywhere.

There were two major areas that have changed my belief on what's possible. One area is that I'm starting to have a little faith in some of the individuals that are reporting their experiences. Some of them seem to have some credibility. Others sound like total kooks and very well may be.

However, the other major area has been my own experience. I have been very fortunate to have had extremely lucid dreams. Not purposeful ones. These were just dreams that I had naturally before I began to practice shamanic journeying. In fact, it was the depth of 'reality' experienced in those dreams that drove me to learn about shamanic journeying.

You said:



Well, there are two things wrong with this scenario.

First off, you're definitely not 'letting go' when thinking about a particular upcoming scenario in the real world. You have already decided what you're goal is. (i.e. you're on a mission to get your point across).

That's never going to work in a shamanic journey. In fact, that's the antithesis of what shamanic journeying is all about.

You don't go on a shamanic journey to get your point across. No spirit is going to touch you with that attitude. They aren't interested in conversing with someone who thinks they already have the point.

Spirits aren't interested in arguing with anyone. They have no need to argue. They are there to HELP you, not argue with you.

And they help you in ways that you may not even anticipate.

It's not like traditional prayer. You don't decide what you think you want and put in an order for it with Santa Claus and expect to get what's on your wish list.

That's not how it works.

I guess there's a whole lot more to it than I realize. I've been studying it for a few months now and I'm beginning to see the light, but there's a lot of information that can't be conveyed easily.

For example, you first need to understand what the spirits are and how they came to be in the various spirit worlds that they occupy. I've read quite a few books on that topic and I'm beginning to understand the nature of the different spirits.

So I guess that's the first step. And of course, if you're mindset is non-belief to begin with, then you're never going to learn about the different spirits because it's all hogwash as far as your concerned.

But here's a question for you:

What is so impressive about science?

The overwhelming agreement between scientists that do experiments and get the same results? CONSISTENCY?

Think about it. That's really the attraction to the scientific method, it yields consistent results.

Well, this is precisely what I've been learning about shamanism. Throughout culture all over the world there are consistent themes, that all cultures seem to 'get' even though they are totally separated in both space and time.

Yet they all come up with the same basic themes of what the spirit world is like.

Why is that?

With the exception of the Mediterranean egotistical picture of a male chauvinistic jealous God just about every other culture on planet Earth has been taking shamanic journeys into the spirit world and they all describe the spirit world in the same way!

From the Far Eastern cultures of Taoism and Buddhism to the Australian aborigines and their "Dream Time", to the Central European Druids, to the South American cultures, and the North American Indians. They ALL shamanic journey and they ALL report strikingly similar experiences and descriptions of spirits and the spirit world.

Why would this be so consistent throughout time and history if there wasn't anything to it?

Evidence that people have been taking shamanic journeys into the spirit world dates back as far as 50,000 years B.C.E. It shows up in the pictures of cave dwellers. The idea of drawing a spiritual circle of sacred space and appealing to the four powers of nature, Earth, Air, Fire and Water, or more precisely, Manifestation, Mind, Imagination and Emotion has been a central theme in shamanism from the get go.

In fact, it is much more productive to think of the elements in this way:

Earth represents Manifestation, or the Physical realm.

Air represents Mind, or the ability to reason, logic and THINK.

Fire represents Imagination, or the ability to be creative the ability to CREATE from NOTHING. New thoughts from NOTHING.

Water represents Emotion and the POWER of emotion. Emotion is extremely powerful, far more powerful that you might think. And different kinds of emotions enable different kinds of powers.

So when thinking of "Earth, Air, Fire and Water" don't think of the actual elements. That not what they represent in this context. This isn't physical chemistry. This is a spiritual context of being.

Who can deny that these attributes are not 'real'?

Everyone accepts that we have physical bodies and live in a physical world, so the "Earth" aspect is well-accepted.

Everyone accepts that we have the ability to reason things out and use logic and make sense of things. In fact, this is the basis of mathematics and science.

So Earth and Air are well excepted.

Fire and Water are what's being rejected by the western world as being irrelevant.

Imagination and Emotion!

The western world is flatly rejecting HALF of what constitutes the HUMAN CONDITION as being "irrelevant" and unscientific!

Why? Because they have DEFINED SCIENCE to be only that which resides in the realm of Earth and Air. They flatly reject Fire and Water as being unscientific. Imagination and emotions are just irrelevant whims of man.

Call the Doctor!

People who give imagination and emotion any relevancy need to be tossed in the loony bin!

The modern scientific world has rejected half of reality as being total nonsense.

But where is modern scientific investigation going? I'm not saying that it hasn't helped us to understand the physical world in some depth. It most certainly has. But is that all there is to the human condition?

I think not. We're far more than just mechanical robots who have become aware that we are robots. We receive programming from NOWHERE! We come up with ORIGINAL IDEAS. A purely physical universe that's based on logic alone could not do that. IMAGINATION and EMOTION are absolutely essential. And they are neither logical, nor physical, although they can certainly both affect the physical and logical aspect of the world.

Science is truly locked into Earth and Air, and totally rejects Fire and Water because Fire and Water are outside of the realms of science. Science is based on applying Air (logic) to Earth (the physical world), and it totally ignores imagination and emotion even though imagination is ultimately necessary for the application of logic to the process. Imagination is still being ignored and laughed at as being 'not real'.

The ancient wisdom of Earth, Air, Fire and Water, is by no means a random fluke. This has permeated humanity for over 50,000 years because it WORKS. But now modern society is dismissing Fire and Water as being irrelevant.

And thus we have become a dry and empty culture. We've rejected half of what we are.

"JennieBean" those are the reality of the delusional, if you wish to find reality you have to apply the laws of physics

reality is that which is govenered by the laws of physics and can be explained by applying those laws

"hallucination" and "delusion" doesn't apply as being reality because they are governed by the mind and doesn't exist outside the mind

"illusion" is a result of using the laws of physics to make it appears that the laws were broken

"faith" is a deluding of one mind to make one believe that the laws of physics was altered by a Divine entitiy or supernatural force

God is unseen and incomprehensible which means once the laws of physics are applied a belief in God falls under delusion

Funches, the laws of physics are also an illusion. If it were not for "quantum entanglement" and energy fields, there would be no laws of physics. The laws of physics only apply to a small fraction of the true reality.