Many atheists seem to want to claim that reality consists of only that which can affect our senses.

But is that the sum total of the human experience?

Clearly not.

For many people the imagination is a very vivid part of their experience, and therefore of their reality.

If a child believes in an imaginary friend and for that child that imaginary friend is very real in their mind. Then where does an atheist get off dismissing this as not being part of the child's reality?

Since when is psychic experience not part of reality?

If non of us had the ability to percieve at all then we wouldn't even know that we exist. In fact, experience is the sum total of existence truly.

So where would an atheist get off telling a child that what they experience in their mind is not 'real'.

That would be like telling them that thier sentience is not real. But sentience is what gives us the sense of existence. "I think, therefore I am".

If you can't think, then you wouldn't experience anything.

So with this in mind then why do atheists rule out imagination as though it's not part of reality?

It most certainly is a part of reality.

And more to the point a 'child' can be any age.

To rule out imagination as not being a valid part of reality is to truly ignore one of the greatest facets of the human psyche.

Does emotion come from outside, or within?

Is emotion real for an atheist?

To claim that emotions are mere chemical reactions to me is absurd, because we can truly control our emotions if we choose to do so. And because of that it's clear to me that they are entirely subjective and not objective at all.

Fairies are no different from emotions truly. If emotions exist, then so do fairies.

I will never get rid of my imaginary friend...his name is abra.....lol lol

Until the 20th century, reality was everything humans could touch, smell, see, and hear. Since the initial publication of the charted electromagnetic spectrum, humans have learned that what they can touch, smell, see, and hear is less than one millionth of reality.


Incubus is neat.

Reality and truth have nothing to do with each other...

Yes, and the Draconians exist as well.

stranded in an desert with no food, you can imagine a nice juicy pear all you want as hard as you can, but you will still die of hunger if all you do is sit and imagine that pear.



polaritybear you beat me to my incubus reference lol

'Abracadbra" you yourself use called the child's friend imaginary so aren't you being hypocritical or are you being an atheist

You missed the point entirely.

I'm saying that imagination is just as much a part of reality as anything else.

If the fairy exists in the imagination then it exists in this reality because imagination is part of reality.




Again, the point I'm making is totally lost.

You say that imagination can't be used to conjure up sustenance, therefore it's not "real".

Well duh?

Your emotions can't conjure up sustenance either. Does that mean that your emotions aren't "real"?

This is the whole point to the thread and why I named it "What is Reality?"

If atheists want to claim that only the things that can change or affect the physical world around us are real then they have no choice but to confess that emotions are not real.

The next time they are claiming to be in a good mood or a sad mood we can just laugh at them and say, "That's just in your imagination! It's not REAL!"

But then if they try to argue that emotions are real because they produce measurable psychological effects, then they must also confess that imagination is real because imagination can directly affect emotions which are 'real'.

In other words, if emotions are considered to be 'real' then so must imagination because the results of imagination directly affect emotions.

The argument that you can't eat what you imagine for the purpose of sustenance is the same as saying that emotions aren't real because neither can they be used to alter your reality.

So my only point is that the atheistic view of what is 'real' falls short of recognizing the entirety of the reality of human experience.

If emotions are 'real' then so is imagination.

That's my only point. What is imagined doesn't need to become manisfest within the physical world to be 'real'. The human psyche is real (i.e. within the realm of experience), therefore the human imagination is real also.

This idea that things need to be physically tangible to be 'real' is truly absurd. Such a philosophy automatically denies human emotions.

Where is there a difference between emotions and imagination?

I claim that we imagine our emotions and that produces physiological effects and therefore imagination is most certainly no less 'real' than emotions. Our emotions come from our psyche.

The psyche is just as much a part of reality as anything else.

That's my point.

I don't know anyone who understands the limits of our senses, who believes that, theist or atheist.

Imagination is a series of electrical and chemical impulses in the brain. Its real. The ideas that these impulses represent could be representative of something real, or not real.

key word "their"

"their"

You didn't add that qualifying word here, so I must assume by this reality reference you mean our shared reality, or THE reality. I agree the electrical imulses and chemical messengers in the brain are real, what they represent is not necessarily apart of "THE reality"

Also when you say Psychic here I must assume you mean experiences of Psyche, or else this could go to a whole other conversation


"their mind" and I wouldn't.


sounds like a generalization. The thing about atheism, its not a dogma, there is no standard of belief, only a standard of lack of belief in one single thing: god.

Again if you mean "THE reality" then I must say that the emotions and ideas are mechanical in nature and are real, the ideas may or may not represent things apart of "THE reality"

Well I certainly dont.

Emotion is a response by the brain in reaction to stimulus from the environment. The causal factors do come from outside, the emotional response is from within the brain.

How could it not be real for every living breathing thinking creature?

So your statement is that we can control our emotions there for it cant be just chemistry . . . . that is not a very well thought our arguement Abra. What we think DOES engage with, and can control the chemistry of the brain.

Sure, and so does every fantasy ever imagined. It has all been just as real as any thought.

"Abracadbra" the point is the child may actually be seeing the fairy as a delusion not imaginary or pretend ..

as a parent don't you think you should find out and educate your child about the difference instead of first encouraging it or dimissing it as harmless imagination ...

Well, that's my only point, so I guess it was as well thought out as it needed to be.

You keep talking about "Their Reality".

So? What's wrong with that?

All of reality is nothing more than the sum total of everyone's individual reality. Take away all the individuals and there's no reality left.

I think this paranoia about giving individual reality merit stems from the obnoxious religious fantatics who try to pass of their personal reality as the "only way" for everyone.

Just because fairies are real for me doesn't mean that they are real for you.

But that doesn't make them any less real for me. Therefore they are indeed a part of my reality.

Have you seen the movie "A Beautiful Mind"?

It's about a man who had some serious delusions and imaginary 'friends' and enemies.

The real question comes down to just how REAL those delusions were!

If those delusion were real in his mind, then yes, they were indeed a part of his "reality".

You may say, sure, but they aren't real for me. So what?

The bottom line is that if someone believes that they are a psychic healer and they heal their wounds psychically then we call that a 'miracle'.

But to them it's just their reality.

I just watched a video presentation by a shaman who was talking about psychic healing. For him is it real.

Who to say that it isn't?

Perhaps he can indeed heal his physicay body using nothing more than psychic energy.

And if to him that psychic energy is 'spirit', who's to say that he's wrong?

If he goes on a "shamanic journey" in a purposeful meditative "daydream" and returns with useful information that he didn't have before he embarked on this imaginary journey then who's to say that journey isn't 'real' and the people and spirits that he met on that journey aren't 'real'.

Clearly they're real for him.

The bucks he made for having made the video are real too!

My my! Something tangible came out of his imagination!

I do not agree. In this conversation between me and you. There is my reality, there is your reality, and there is the reality.

The only reality that can be proven though is your own and then only to yourself. I know I exist because I have sentience. I can't experience your sentience therefor you may be part of my imagination.

As a parent I would be interested in hearing all about my child's imaginary friend.

And just like any other friend my child my encounter I would be concerned whether the friend is a good influence or a bad influence on my child.

If I determined that my child's imaginary friend is a good influence, then sure, why not encourage it?

Delusion is very much a part of life. Our whole culture is living under a delusion. Our society is structured on delusion.

How a society develops depends greatly on which delusions they nurture and which delusions they reject.

If you believe that you are living a delusion-free life, that's your delusion.

What is is "the reality"? The laws of physics?

But the laws of physics aren't even completely known. Therefore we don't even know what "the reality" is.

Like Jeanniebean often says, "All we can know is that exist exist as individuals. I think therefore I am".

That's really the only 'reality' we can have direct experience of.

So what might actually be true is something more along the lines of:

There is my reality, and your reality and the reality of all individuals, and no other reality exists.

You're trying to give absoluteness to a reality that no individual experiences.

If it's not your reality, and it's not my reality, and there is no one else, then there is no "the reality".

If me and you and abra are sitting in a room, and I have a blue rubber ball, we all see it, we all agree it exists. Then that is proof that this ball has an existence outside of our own.

This is not rocket science. This is the same old if a tree falls crap.


Reality is existence, with or without acknowledgment by consciousness. Consciousness give us the ability to perceive "the reality" and create a copy we store in memory called "our reality".

More then once creative has made a distinction between reality and actuality in order to limit the confusion. You can do this if you wish. If you do not understand my point of view by now, then the distinction will not help.

Regardless

Says who? The voices in head all agree with me. But seriously just because someone agrees with you, does that make it a reality?

"Abracadbra" ....an asylum is also structured on delusion ...but you don't see them trying to encourage it among the inhabitants

I am still not giving up my imaginary friend and no one can make me so