Yes, but it's not so easy to kill someone by accident by strangling or with an amphetamine capsule, a chain, etc. However, with a gun, accidents, especially with children, have happened more than enough to cause alarm. Thus, you're missing a vital part of the equation, which is that in these situations, we are not dealing with murder, we are dealing with an accident.

And again and again, we hear this better parenting argument, or this safety argument. If everyone was so responsible or such a good parent, hardly anyone would feel they needed guns in the first place would they? The whole reason for guns is for safety against an aggressor. Well, our crime rate would be lower if people were more responsible or were better parents. The argument is self-defeating.

I was brought up with a gun in my hand, i learned how to shoot and how to use a firearm safely from the time i was 5. Got my first one at 8, A 12 Gauge. Never had an accident, never had a discharge that was not supposed to happen, never hurt anyone but myself with a gun that was too big for what i was doing. Guns in the right hands are a good thing,, they wont hurt anyone and they are used for sport, recreation, and protection. Kids that have not the first bit of discipline will never even touch a firearm of mine. and as far as if i keep them loaded in the home,, long guns no i dont,, the ammo is never kept near the Gun. Pistol though,, i keep loaded,, But it is also on me even when i am home,,. the only time it wouldnt be on me is if i am out in public,, then it is locked in the car, or when i am sleeping,, then it is close. I dont let children touch them unless under direct supervision of me or another adult who knows what they can do.

If the right to bear arms was taken, then only the criminals would have them. That is a very frightening thought that I never want to see make it to reality.

If one of the Articles in the Bill Of Rights is taken from us, which one will be next? Which one are you willing to give up? I respect anyone's decision not to own a gun but also respect mine to own one.

Again, I disagree. Most people are ignorant of gun safety, and in fact, most children are ignorant of gun safety. What's more, even a child who has been educated about gun safety is still clumsy and forgetful.

Even if it is a person who caused an action, it doesn't mean that the mechanism of action - the gun in this case - still cannot be blamed. It is generally a good idea to assume people will do stupid things and go from there, especially when safety is concerned.



That is a twisting of words, nogames39: I did not say that all guns kill people; I implied that the accessibility of guns makes it easy for these sorts of accidents to happen.

That's also a non sequitur. All guns kill people says nothing about people killing people. To say that all cups were meant to hold things is not akin to saying that all people were meant to hold things.

Finally, the "Guns don't kill people - people kill people" isn't to be taken literally. Of course an inanimate object cannot spontaneously jump up and shoot someone in the face. I don't think anyone ever argued that it did. That's one reason why the argument is lame - it states the obvious to make a valid point, yes, that it's people's aggression that is dangerous, but it missing the fact that accidents with guns are totally possible. What's more, the accessibility of guns makes it easier to intimidate and kill others. Two examples of this is that it is much harder to rob an entire bank with only a knife. It is much harder to go into a school and kill 30 classmates with only a knife.

That's good thumper. However, if most people were like you, accidents like the one we are discussing wouldn't happen. Your comment still says nothing about people who get guns to use for bad purposes.

And also, although you'd definitely be a different person without guns in your life, you would still find plenty of fun things to do. Guns are hardly a necessity as far as hobbies are concerned.

You may not like the hobby, many don't, including myself. But, doesn't make anyone who does like it a bad person or anything else.

I think if you checked your stats, far more children end up dead from other accidental means than they do by guns. There are far more kids getting maimed, crippled or killed on playground equipment or sports than with guns. Thing is, you only hear about the gun deaths. Why, because it's sexier on the news and it brings in ratings. It makes people feel superior and it gives them a reason to be judgmental.

What I find lame is the pass the buck mentality.

Were people to accept responsibility for their actions the whole pointing of finger, blaming this or that would cease.

You're not entirely correct on that one. First, if guns were more difficult to acquire, much fewer criminals would have them. Not every criminal has the means, knowhow, or money to get into the black market. Second, I'd bet that in most places, you are probably more likely to encounter an armed criminal when outside your house, and since having a gun on you in public is, I think, illegal, it probably wouldn't help you. Also, when you're in your house, you probably won't be robbed by too many armed robbers. I think most breaking and entering happens with criminals trying to pull a quiet and uneventful job, don't you? So, the armed criminals you refer to probably don't fit the description even when you're in your house.

As for the Bill of Rights...
From Wikipedia http://simple.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Bill_of_Rights:

1. Congress must protect the rights of freedom of speech, freedom of the press, freedom of assembly, freedom of petition, and freedom of religion. Congress cannot promote any one religion more than others.

Speech - Patriot Act violated this right.
Press - Fox, CNN, NBC are controlled by corporations who restrict what is shown to the American people.
Promotion of religion - Our government, and congress, clearly favor Christianity over other religions. For example, in recent years, it was voted that the Ten Commandments should be hung in Congress. It can be argued that this promotes Christianity over other religions.

3. The government cannot put a person on trial for a crime until a grand jury has written an indictment...The government must follow due process of law before punishing a person or taking their property.

This says nothing about anything having to be within US borders, so it looks like Guantanamo Bay and Abu Graib are clear violations.


...you know, I can go on about the Bill of Rights. Seeing as the US government has already broken on several occasions parts of the Bill of Rights, I really don't see why removing the clause about guns is such a problem.

Sorry, if I said anyone who likes guns is a bad person, I didn't mean to say that. I don't think I said that though.

You're right, more children die from other things. However, I'd argue that playgrounds are very important for playing, and playing is very necessary for kids. I do not think the dangerous out weight the benefits, and I think that safer design schemes can be explored.

Guns, however, are an unnecessary recreational activity that everyone can do with out. The argument is out there that guns don't provide any significant means of protection, especially when quitting smoking, drinking less, eating less, and exercising more are probably better measures to ensure one's safety and good health. In addition, it is arguable that a ban on guns would make society safer overall because even criminals would have a harder time getting their hands on guns.

I went and did alittle websurfing to get some statistics since everyone in the Political forum likes statisitcs so much
http://www.lancastergeneral.org/content/greystone_37645.htm

Injuries are a major source of childhood emergency department and hospital admissions. The most recent accident statistics from the National Safety Council, the National Center for Injury Prevention and Control, and other sources tell us that:

Injury is the leading cause of death in children and young adults. According to the most recent statistics from the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC), there were approximately 2,800 children, ages one to 14 years, that died from an unintentional injury.

Falls are the leading cause of unintentional injury for children. Children ages 14 and under account for one-third of all fall-related visits to hospital emergency rooms.

In 2003, nearly 285,600 children ages 14 and under were treated in the US for bicycle-related injuries. Nearly half (47 percent) of children ages 14 and under hospitalized for bicycle-related injuries are diagnosed with a traumatic brain injury.

Drowning is the second leading cause of unintentional injury-related death among children ages one to 14. The majority of drownings and near-drownings occur in residential swimming pools and in open water sites. However, children can drown in as little as one inch of water.

Airway obstruction injury is the leading cause of unintentional injury-related death among infants under age one.

Approximately 45 percent of unintentional injury deaths occurred in and around the home.

Unintentional home injury deaths to children are caused primarily by fire and burns, suffocation, drowning, firearms, falls, choking and poisoning.


Nowhere does it mention accidental death by guns. Since bicycles are the leading cause for injury among children should they be outlawed?

Oh, you forgot to mention Article 2 of the Bill Of Rights which gives the right to bear arms.

If most people actually took the time to get educated alot of mess wouldnt happen in the first place. This rings true far more than cramming gun control down someones throat. As Far as idiots who have no buisness with a gun,, well,, when they commit a gun crime,, let their ass sit in prison and figure out why its bad to play with guns,, and if they kill someone,,, unless its under extreme circumstances,,, let their ass swing. Kids doing stupid things with guns,,, well their parents need to be dealt with for being stupid enough not to have educated their children in the dangers of guns. I have always known that when someone or something gets shot,, they dont hop up like in the movies. There becomes a hole where they were shot and blood starts pouring,, and thats if they are lucky. Guns can hurt people in the real world in the wrong hands.

I don't think anyone is "passing the buck." The police are investigating to find how the gun got into the children's hands and usually you see *people* getting arrested, not the guns, lol. That doesn't mean, however, that taking a more proactive approach means that we are "pointing fingers at this and that." In fact, there is no "this and that" - there is the person and the gun. Arrested the responsible person and then one day deciding to ban guns is pretty accurate and reasonable "finger pointing" if you ask me.

You may not believe this but for many people hunting is not a recreational activity. It is a means to feed their family. I know many people who would not be able to otherwise provide year round for their family if it were not for hunting. I know people who hunt with the same gun that their grandfather used. Nowadays buying a box of ammo is alot cheaper than going to the grocery store and buying meat to feed your family.

Not necessarily. It could have been in a lock box up in a closet and the thief found it. If a thief wants something bad enough, they'll do anything to get it.

I think the point of this topic was the ACCIDENTAL shooting of a child. My point in responding is that accidents can and do happen everyday, for millions of reasons, and many more for things other than guns. Most of these accidents could probably be prevented with a some thoughtful action, a few safety precautions, etc. But, we cannot outlaw everything that has the potential to cause harm if certain common sense precautions aren't taken. No matter what, there are going to be many, many people with little or no common sense. Kids, especially, don't grow into their cause/effect logic and thinking before they act skill until they are much older. Some, unfortunately, never will acquire that skill. Yes, it is up to parents to a large extent, but even the best parent in the world cannot control everything, no matter how much they want to or wish they could. They are human, and may make mistakes. Sometimes it is a tragic mistake (as is possible in this case).

I find it funny how you talk about statistics...that's a whole other discussion though.

Yes, the leading cause of accidental child death is not related to guns. I could have guessed that without a statistic. The point is that banning kids from playing and riding bicycles (injury by falling), swimming (injury by drowning), eating (injury/death by choking) is a dumb idea. At that rate, perhaps you'd suggest that we ban having kids?

Oh, and your statistics report *does* mention firearms if you read carefully:



As for Article 2...lol, of course I didn't mention it. If you noticed, I gave some examples of articles that were *broken*. Seeing as they haven't revised the article about guns, of course I didn't mention it.

Really, ReddBeans, I don't doubt that you're smart and all, but your reading a bit too quickly. ^_^

Thumper, I agree with you that proper education and safety protocols would go a long way. However, since the government doesn't have the right nor the resources go into each home with a gun to do safety inspections every day, and since gun safety programs in schools cost money, I honestly don't think today's situation is going to change.

Banning guns would automatically and dramatically cut down these sorts of accidents. It is also arguable that such a measure would decrease the number of armed robberies.
Think about it: if it's harder and more expensive to get a gun (because one would have to go to the black market), more criminals would not use guns. Seeing as most criminals are neither wealthy nor educated, I think we'd see a drop in armed crime.



Well, for one, if there are many families like this in America, I'd say that they should be able to apply for a special gun license or something. Either that, or just get food stamps for when they need it. What's more, they should try to cut back on meat and eat vegetables. Vegetables tend to be much cheaper, at least here on the East Coast.

Also, we have welfare for a reason. What's more, if the family has been depending on a gun for a few generations for food, I suggest the family force one of their kids to study his or her butt off so the kid can get a scholarship, get a good job, and get the family off of subsistence for Christ's sake. I know it's easier said than done, but honestly, this gun issue should not be decided by these families on the brink of poverty. They are the minority, I am sure.

Anyhow, let me repeat thatif there is a special permit for these sorts of situations, I have no problem! It's not good to take away a family's livelihood, and I'm sure some sort of work-around can be found.

You're right - many accidents are preventable by careful thought and safety. Also, we cannot go around banning shoelaces, ladders, roof re-tiling, climbing trees, etc etc.

However, we *can* ban guns and there *is* more than one good reason to do so.

I, for one, would like to learn how to use a gun very much. Despite this, well, you all know my stance on the subject.

Unintentional home injury deaths to children are caused primarily by fire and burns, suffocation, drowning, firearms, falls, choking and poisoning.


I understand the need to condense what I had pulled from the article but I would appreciate at least the entire sentence being quoted. Firearms are the 4th cause of accidental death of children according to the report.

Very Very True,,,,,, And as far as the feeding your family thing. I have had to live off of deer meat for several months at a time. If I wasnt able to shoot like i can and able to provide for my family,, i would have had to go on state assistance or something,, and i am a proud man,,, i dont take handouts.i would rather kill my food than have it given to me