In another thread people were discussing whether an infamous historical figure was a "True Christian" or whether he was just using Christianity to inspire a mob mentality to support his genocide of heathens.

However, this whole issue of "True Christians" brings to light a very interesting concept.

An argument was given that "No Honest Person" could use the Bible to support violence, bigotry, and murder.

Of course we know historically that the Bible was used by many people to support violence, bigotry and murder. Were all of those people "dishonest"?

And that brings me to a very serious point:

If we accept the above idea then what are we truly saying?

We are suggesting that honest people will use the Bible to support good works, and dishonest people will use the Bible to support evil works.

But doesn't this fly in the face of what the Bible itself is supposed to instill?

All this is saying is that some people are already naturally honest (and don't need the Bible!), and other people are clearly dishonest (and the Bible isn't going to change them!).

So where's the value of the Bible come into play?

If I already need to be an honest person to support the Bible in good ways then clearly I was an honest person without the Bible.

And if people can use the Bible in evil ways then clearly the Bible doesn't do a damn thing to instill good morals in people.

Obviously there are honest people and dishonest people and the Bible has nothing at all to do with that.

What good is a religious doctrine if it doesn't instill good morals in people?

What good is a religious doctrine if it can be used to incite the masses to murder in the name of God?

Clearly if the morality of a person much come FIRST then the religion obviously does nothing toward instilling good moral values in anyone.

A Second Point:

I'd like to make this second point because it's very important.

I've heard many Christians argue that the Old Testament only applied to Israel and doesn't apply to the rest of the world. However, that's just one interpretation. And I might add that this might be seen as a 'Good Natured" interpretation because it rejects the horrors of the Old Testament.

Although I might add that people who claim this still claim that homosexuality is a sin, and they believe the Ten Commandments to still be in effect, etc. Those all came from the Old Testament.

And they are often also quite hypocritical about it, because whilst using the Old Testament to support this kind of bigotry against gays the simultaneously completely ignore the fact that the Old Testament demands that women not speak out publicly on religious matters or matter of political importance. Yet the Christians who speak out against gay rights are quite often vociferous Christian women. So that's pretty much a "pick-and-choose" your bigotries right there.

But the major point is this:

According to Matthew, Jesus said the following:

Matthew 5:
17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

Anyone can easily use the words of Jesus as stated by Matthew to support everything and anything from the Old Testament. And that would include murdering heathens, and let's not forget the commandment of God, "Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live".

According to Matthew, Jesus said that these laws shall in no wise pass from the law!

So there you go. Anyone can use anything in the Old Testament and feel justified that they are honestly obeying the word of the Biblical God.

No "dishonesty" required. According to Matthew, Jesus himself said that he did not come to change these laws. Therefore it does not require a dishonest person to appeal to the commandments of the Old Testament to murder heathens, witches, and sinners!

Another argument that can be used with total honesty

Jesus said, "Let him without sin cast the first stone"

Ok, so is any man without sin according to the Bible?

YES!

According to the Bible if you accept Jesus Christ as your Savior your sins will be FORGIVEN!

Forgiven sins are washed away and no longer exist.

At the moment you accept Jesus Christ as your savior you are indeed SINLESS! Because you're sins have been washed away. So go ahead and cast those stones at sinners!

Seriously.

You might laugh and think that's a pretty sick argument.

I AGREE!

But that's not the point.

The point is that it's a logically sound argument and could indeed be made by a person who genuinely wants to convince people that it's ok to murder sinners in the name of God if they have indeed accepted Christ as their savior.

The point isn't whether any DECENT person would do this. The point is whether the bible can be logically used to support this kind of crap. It can, and historically it has been used for this. It continues to be used to spread bigotry toward gays, non-Christians, evolutionists (i.e. science), and anyone else that evil people want to turn the masses against in the name of Jesus Christ.

Jesus wasn't into making trouble. Jesus was into forgiveness. Live and let live. If you are involved in any kind of religious-oriented politics, then you do not speak for Jesus, IMHO.

Religious-oriented politics can become nothing but fascism in the name of God.

That's all it can ever be.

Let me Simplfy This

What good is a religion where the doctrine can be argued for either "good works" or "evil works" and the interpretations depend entirely on the interpreters being "good people" BEFORE they start interpreting?

It seems like a pretty useless doctrine if a person is required to already be "good" in order to come away from it with "Good Interpretations".

That's the whole point here.

Hope this helps to simply the topic.

Oh Abra everything has good and bad aspects especially people.

double post

I have no argument with that.

However, many people try to claim that the Bible is the word of God.

We can't have the word of God having both good and bad in it.

That's the problem in this particular situation.

It’s completely subjective, which exemplifies how absurd it is for one person or group of people to say that theirs is the only way to salvation.

I’m not going to say the name of the historical figure in question as that will lead to all kinds of arguing. I will use another example that is irrefutably a Christian inspired and supported atrocity.

The Crusades.

The Crusades were a series of religion-driven military campaigns waged by much of Christian Europe against external and internal opponents. Crusades were fought mainly against Muslims, though campaigns were also directed against pagan Slavs, Jews, Russian and Greek Orthodox Christians, Mongols, Cathars, Hussites, Waldensians, Old Prussians, and political enemies of the popes. Crusaders took vows and were granted an indulgence for past sins.

"Crusaders took vows and were granted an indulgence for past sins."

That statement is very significant. Not only were these "soldiers for god" compensated for their trouble, the church actually relived them of their sins!

Well the truly absurd thing is that the Protestants protested against the Catholic Church because the claimed that no mortal man can speak for God and that only the Holy Spirit can speak to the heart of the individual.

This was the original tenet of Protestanism. This was their reasoning to rebel against the Catholic Church.

But look at what has become of the Protestants.

They have become the most voiciferious of all. Each individual Protestant (or demonination of Protestants in the case of organized religion) acts like as if they are a self-appointed Paper Pope.

Protestants are some of the most belligerent proselytizers on the planet.

And they demand that you accept their interpretation of the Bible or go to hell.

I was a Christian Protestant, in fact, I truly have the right to even claim to still be one in all honesty.

The fundamental idea of Protestantism was originally supposed to be that only the Holy Spirit can speak to the heart of an individual.

Well, I've read the Bible. When I read the Bible the Holy Spirit speaks to my heart and tells me that the entire Old Testament is the made up lies of a crude culture that needed an excuse for their bad behavior so they claimed that God told them to do terrible things, but not a word of that is true.

And when I read the New Testament the Holy Spirit speaks to my heart and tells me that Jesus was actually a Buddhist who tried to enlighten a misguided culture by rejecting the ways of the Old Testament, but instead of getting through to them they crucified him and then used his martyrdom as a dead marionette doll to shove words in his mouth to support their original religion that he actually denounced.

So as a Christian Protestant I recognize that Jesus was a Buddhist.

For the Holy Spirit spoke to my heart.

I guess I'm the only Protestant who ever truly took Protestantism seriously.

What matters to you who do not believe?


Yamin

Because history shows that it is the non-believers that the believers are always torturing and murdering.

Why should non-believes just sit back whilst the believers set up the conditions for world war III to be conducted in the name of God.

Non-believers have to live on this little speck of dust that we call the Earth too.

Why should non-believers just sit back whilst religious fantatics use the Bible and the fact that people are so easily led by it to be used as blind sheep?

There are large religious organizations acting right now to denounce science and the intellectual acheivements of humanity and are politically pushing to teach dogmatic creationsism and bigotry against same-gender love in our schools.

They obtain their financial strength from millions of Christians who give to the these organizations in the name of Jesus Christ.

They use the Bible to support things that, in my personal view, are detrimental to all humanity, believers and non-believers alike.

Clearly, it's a HUMAN issue.

If you live on spaceship Earth you have a right to speak out against this kind of fascism.

Why wait until it get's out of hand?

I'm an Earthling. I care about humanity.

Not to mention that god and the bible has been used REPEADEDLY to condone violence. That’s why it matters to a "non believer."

And while some folks worry we are being watched through our television sets the church quietly sets up conditions to rule through the government themselves.

While both might be equally scary, my focus is on how influential the Religious Right has become while I was looking the other way.

Though I suspect this past loss for the conservative party will slow their agenda a bit, they won't let go of the agenda to see Gods' law as the law of the land.

I am in hopes I will be dust before then, but I feel for those that will be here living with the so called Righteous. In most cases the church goers don't even have a clue what is going on, they are too busy parroting the nonsense that is expected of them.

That’s true. One only need look as far as the state of Utah and how much control the LDS wield. I would need to start browsing online to find all of that information but their influence is extensive and is not simply limited to the Mormon Church. They have considerable business interests.

another BIBLE bashing
PATHETIC

Deke, who has bashed anything here?

do you see anything positive being spoken

So we are not permitted to criticize or honestly discuss a topic in the General Religion forum?

by no means is that what i'm implying

people can say and worship whatever crazy thing they want to.

i just don't slam their (crazy beliefs)
my little sarcasimn

Well instead of just making those types of antagonistic comments when clearly they carry no weight, why not take the position of advocate for your beliefs. Offer us a concise and clear counter point.