Or transexuals

Alright, that was kind of funny Dan.

Obviously - it's unclear to you.

Well you told me that my statement was incorrect yet you can not prove this...so.

Krimsa said:

Here's a partial list of the scientific community that disagree's with you.:

Dr. William Arion, Biochemistry, Chemistry
Dr. Paul Ackerman, Psychologist
Dr. E. Theo Agard, Medical Physics
Dr. Steve Austin, Geologist
Dr. S.E. Aw, Biochemist
Dr. Thomas Barnes, Physicist
Dr. Geoff Barnard, Immunologist
Dr. John Baumgardner, Electrical Engineering, Space Physicist, Geophysicist, expert in supercomputer modeling of plate tectonics
Dr. Jerry Bergman, Psychologist
Dr. Kimberly Berrine, Microbiology & Immunology
Prof. Vladimir Betina, Microbiology, Biochemistry & Biology
Dr. Andrew Bosanquet, Biology, Microbiology
Edward A. Boudreaux, Theoretical Chemistry
Dr. David R. Boylan, Chemical Engineer
Prof. Linn E. Carothers, Associate Professor of Statistics
Prof. Sung-Do Cha, Physics
Dr. Eugene F. Chaffin, Professor of Physics
Dr. Choong-Kuk Chang, Genetic Engineering
Prof. Jeun-Sik Chang, Aeronautical Engineering
Dr. Donald Chittick, Physical Chemist
Prof. Chung-Il Cho, Biology Education
Dr. John M. Cimbala, Mechanical Engineering
Dr. Harold Coffin, Palaeontologist
Dr. Bob Compton, DVM
Dr. Ken Cumming, Biologist
Dr. Jack W. Cuozzo, Dentist
Dr. William M. Curtis III, Th.D., Th.M., M.S., Aeronautics & Nuclear Physics
Dr. Malcolm Cutchins, Aerospace Engineering
Dr. Lionel Dahmer, Analytical Chemist
Dr. Raymond V. Damadian, M.D., Pioneer of magnetic resonance imaging
Dr. Chris Darnbrough, Biochemist
Dr. Nancy M. Darrall, Botany
Dr. Bryan Dawson, Mathematics
Dr. Douglas Dean, Biological Chemistry
Prof. Stephen W. Deckard, Assistant Professor of Education
Dr. David A. DeWitt, Biology, Biochemistry, Neuroscience
Dr. Don DeYoung, Astronomy, atmospheric physics, M.Div
Dr. Geoff Downes, Creationist Plant Physiologist
Dr. Ted Driggers, Operations research
Robert H. Eckel, Medical Research
Dr. André Eggen, Geneticist
Dr. Dudley Eirich, Molecular Biologist
Prof. Dennis L. Englin, Professor of Geophysics
Prof. Danny Faulkner, Astronomy
Prof. Carl B. Fliermans, Professor of Biology
Prof. Dwain L. Ford, Organic Chemistry
Prof. Robert H. Franks, Associate Professor of Biology
Dr. Alan Galbraith, Watershed Science
Dr. Paul Giem, Medical Research
Dr. Maciej Giertych, Geneticist
Dr. Duane Gish, Biochemist
Dr. Werner Gitt, Information Scientist
Dr. Warwick Glover, General Surgeon
Dr. D.B. Gower, Biochemistry
Dr. Robin Greer, Chemist, History
Dr. Donald Hamann, Food Scientist
Dr. Barry Harker, Philosopher
Dr. Charles W. Harrison, Applied Physicist, Electromagnetics
Dr. George Hawke, Environmental Scientist
Dr. Margaret Helder, Science Editor, Botanist
Dr. Harold R. Henry, Engineer
Dr. Jonathan Henry, Astronomy
Dr. Joseph Henson, Entomologist
Dr. Robert A. Herrmann, Professor of Mathematics, US Naval Academy
Dr. Andrew Hodge, Head of the Cardiothoracic Surgical Service
Dr. Kelly Hollowell, Molecular and Cellular Pharmacologist
Dr. Ed Holroyd, III, Atmospheric Science
Dr. Bob Hosken, Biochemistry
Dr. George F. Howe, Botany
Dr. Neil Huber, Physical Anthropologist
Dr. James A. Huggins, Professor and Chair, Department of Biology
Evan Jamieson, Hydrometallurgy
George T. Javor, Biochemistry
Dr. Arthur Jones, Biology
Dr. Jonathan W. Jones, Plastic Surgeon
Dr. Raymond Jones, Agricultural Scientist
Prof. Leonid Korochkin, Molecular Biology
Dr. Valery Karpounin, Mathematical Sciences, Logics, Formal Logics
Dr. Dean Kenyon, Biologist
Prof. Gi-Tai Kim, Biology
Prof. Harriet Kim, Biochemistry
Prof. Jong-Bai Kim, Biochemistry
Prof. Jung-Han Kim, Biochemistry
Prof. Jung-Wook Kim, Environmental Science
Prof. Kyoung-Rai Kim, Analytical Chemistry
Prof. Kyoung-Tai Kim, Genetic Engineering
Prof. Young-Gil Kim, Materials Science
Prof. Young In Kim, Engineering
Dr. John W. Klotz, Biologist
Dr. Vladimir F. Kondalenko, Cytology/Cell Pathology
Dr. Leonid Korochkin, M.D., Genetics, Molecular Biology, Neurobiology
Dr. John K.G. Kramer, Biochemistry
Prof. Jin-Hyouk Kwon, Physics
Prof. Myung-Sang Kwon, Immunology
Dr. John Leslie, Biochemist
Dr. Jason Lisle, Astrophysicist
Dr. Alan Love, Chemist
Dr. Ian Macreadie, molecular biologist and microbiologist:
Dr. John Marcus, Molecular Biologist
Dr. Ronald C. Marks, Associate Professor of Chemistry
Dr. George Marshall, Eye Disease Researcher
Dr. Ralph Matthews, Radiation Chemist
Dr. John McEwan, Chemist
Prof. Andy McIntosh, Combustion theory, aerodynamics
Dr. David Menton, Anatomist
Dr. Angela Meyer, Creationist Plant Physiologist
Dr. John Meyer, Physiologist
Dr. Albert Mills, Animal Embryologist/Reproductive Physiologist
Colin W. Mitchell, Geography
Dr. Tommy Mitchell, Physician
Dr. John N. Moore, Science Educator
Dr. John W. Moreland, Mechanical engineer and Dentist
Dr. Henry M. Morris (1918–2006), founder of the Institute for Creation Research.
Dr. Arlton C. Murray, Paleontologist
Dr. John D. Morris, Geologist
Dr. Len Morris, Physiologist
Dr. Graeme Mortimer, Geologist
Dr. Terry Mortenson, History of Geology
Stanley A. Mumma, Architectural Engineering
Prof. Hee-Choon No, Nuclear Engineering
Dr. Eric Norman, Biomedical researcher
Dr. David Oderberg, Philosopher
Prof. John Oller, Linguistics
Prof. Chris D. Osborne, Assistant Professor of Biology
Dr. John Osgood, Medical Practitioner
Dr. Charles Pallaghy, Botanist
Dr. Gary E. Parker, Biologist, Cognate in Geology (Paleontology)
Dr. David Pennington, Plastic Surgeon
Prof. Richard Porter
Dr. Georgia Purdom, Molecular Genetics
Dr. John Rankin, Cosmologist
Dr. A.S. Reece, M.D.
Prof. J. Rendle-Short, Pediatrics
Dr. Jung-Goo Roe, Biology
Dr. David Rosevear, Chemist
Dr. Ariel A. Roth, Biology
Dr. Joachim Scheven Palaeontologist:
Dr. Ian Scott, Educator
Dr. Saami Shaibani, Forensic physicist
Dr. Young-Gi Shim, Chemistry
Prof. Hyun-Kil Shin, Food Science
Dr. Mikhail Shulgin, Physics
Dr. Roger Simpson, Engineer
Dr. Harold Slusher, Geophysicist
Dr. E. Norbert Smith, Zoologist
Arthur E. Wilder-Smith (1915–1995) Three science doctorates; a creation science pioneer
Dr. Andrew Snelling, Geologist
Prof. Man-Suk Song, Computer Science
Dr. Timothy G. Standish, Biology
Prof. James Stark, Assistant Professor of Science Education
Prof. Brian Stone, Engineer
Dr. Esther Su, Biochemistry
Dr. Charles Taylor, Linguistics
Dr. Stephen Taylor, Electrical Engineering
Dr. Ker C. Thomson, Geophysics
Dr. Michael Todhunter, Forest Genetics
Dr. Lyudmila Tonkonog, Chemistry/Biochemistry
Dr. Royal Truman, Organic Chemist:
Dr. Larry Vardiman, Atmospheric Science
Prof. Walter Veith, Zoologist
Dr. Joachim Vetter, Biologist
Sir Cecil P. G. Wakeley (1892–1979) Surgeon
Dr. Jeremy Walter, Mechanical Engineer
Dr. Keith Wanser, Physicist
Dr. Noel Weeks, Ancient Historian (also has B.Sc. in Zoology)
Dr. A.J. Monty White, Chemistry/Gas Kinetics
Dr. John Whitmore, Geologist/Paleontologist
Dr. Clifford Wilson, Psycholinguist and archaeologist
Dr. Kurt Wise, Palaeontologist
Prof. Verna Wright, Rheumatologist (deceased 1997)
Prof. Seoung-Hoon Yang, Physics
Dr. Thomas (Tong Y.) Yi, Ph.D., Creationist Aerospace & Mechanical Engineering
Dr. Ick-Dong Yoo, Genetics
Dr. Sung-Hee Yoon, Biology
Dr. Patrick Young, Chemist and Materials Scientist
Prof. Keun Bae Yu, Geography
Dr. Henry Zuill, Biology

Now - you were saying..........

Okay we have all seen this copied and pasted list oh like at least 20 times posted on forum. First name on the list I did a search for and guess what site he is located on?

http://www.answersingenesis.org/articles/ee/what-is-science

These guys are ALL creationist "scientists”. When I was referring to the scientific community I meant actual accredited scientists in their prospective fields or areas of discipline. That was the “scientific community” I was referring to. My statement still stands as valid. These people do not impress me. I myself am a bachelor of the science degree holder from a 4 year university.

Taken from same website

‘Biologists would dearly like to know how modern apes, modern humans and the various ancestral hominids have evolved from a common ancestor. Unfortunately, the fossil record is somewhat incomplete as far as the hominids are concerned, and it is all but blank for the apes. The best we can hope for is that more fossils will be found over the next few years which will fill the present gaps in the evidence.’ The author goes on to say: ‘David Pilbeam [a well-known expert in human evolution] comments wryly, “If you brought in a smart scientist from another discipline and showed him the meagre evidence we’ve got he’d surely say, ‘forget it: there isn’t enough to go on’.”




Oh and it gets worse.


Most creationists consider Neanderthals, Cro-Magnon, and some other fossil groups as representatives of extinct people groups, not evolutionary dead ends. Interpretation of fossils from an evolutionary perspective is not compatible with the teachings of the Bible. The fact that chimpanzees and humans have similar DNA does not make them evolutionary relatives. Humans did not evolve in a series of random accidents from an apelike ancestor—they were created in the image of God. The Bible makes a clear distinction between man and the animals. Man is given the ability to fellowship with God and given dominion over the animals. Evolutionary ideas about the rise of man from apes has fueled racist attitudes and set the stage for such atrocities as the Holocaust. Humans were specially created by God and are not simply highly evolved primates.

This is the biggest load of crap I have ever read. They just twist and turn. Okay let’s take a closer look.

A. What does it mean that humans share 96% of their DNA with chimpanzee? This article does not give any explanation whatsoever. They just insist that it’s a coincidence (I guess.)

B. Man is given the ability to fellowship with God and given dominion over the animals. It’s this attitude that has allowed fundamentalist Christians to destroy the earth and its animal kingdom simply because you want to believe you are separate and superior from it. Well how is that working out for you in light of the current day ecological crisis?

C. Evolutionary ideas about the rise of man from apes has fueled racist attitudes and set the stage for such atrocities as the Holocaust. Of course this one is the biggest lie I have ever heard espoused on one of these ridiculous websites. For one thing, the holocaust was fueled by Adolph Hitler, who was a practicing Catholic and secondly the bible condones slavery.

Exodus 21

God's rules for buying slaves and splitting up their families.

You can buy one, but you must set him free on the seventh year. If you have "given" him a wife and she bears children, then you get to keep the wife and kids. If he refuses to leave his family when his seven years are up, then bore a hole though his ear and keep him forever. (That sounds fair!)


21:2 If thou buy an Hebrew servant, six years he shall serve: and in the seventh he shall go out free for nothing.

21:3 If he came in by himself, he shall go out by himself: if he were married, then his wife shall go out with him.

21:4 If his master have given him a wife, and she have born him sons or daughters; the wife and her children shall be her master's, and he shall go out by himself.

21:5 And if the servant shall plainly say, I love my master, my wife, and my children; I will not go out free: "Take an awl and thrust it through his ear."

21:6 Then his master shall bring him unto the judges; he shall also bring him to the door, or unto the door post; and his master shall bore his ear through with an aul; and he shall serve him for ever.

Bushido posted a youtube playlist in one of his threads(it is in his evolution thread over in the Science section) where Hovind's "theories" are completely discredited, using nothing more than basic scientific fact.

Here is that playlist:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BS5vid4GkEY&feature=PlayList&p=AC3481305829426D&index=0&playnext=1

Hovind is a looney.

Krimsa John 4:2 States that Jesus baptized his disciples, it does not state that he did not perform any baptisms. You have taken this scripture out of context.

OK everybody!

We all think what we think. We all believe what we believe. And we're all desperately arguing to make our point, according to our different beliefs.

But this whole debate, exchange, conversation, etc., is headed exactly the same way all others have before it: NOWHERE!!!

Now, let's take a break and consider the following.

The United States of America, as defined by its Constitution, its First Amendment, and its 'Establishment Clause', is a religious neutral country: freedom 'OF' religion (free to practice ANY religion YOU choose), and freedom 'FROM' religion (free to reject the dogma and beliefs of any or all religions).

Also, the 'establishment clause' prohibits the State from 'establishing' a national religion, and prohibits the State from showing PREFERENCE towards any specific religion (and yes that includes any version of the christian blend).

That gives us the CONSTITUTIONAL waters in which the country swims. That constitutional reality is the wall against which the 'word for word bible believers' fundamentalists keep hitting their head.

You know all those State Court, as well as Supreme Court verdicts falling on the side of 'religious neutral' (as per the US Constitution), as opposed to showing a preference for the fundamentalists point of view (Anti-Constitutional)!!! That's what I mean by Constitutional reality. And even if one claims bible law over Constitutional law, while you're on this earth, and living in the US, Constitutional law is the only one that will throw in prison if you don't repspect it.

Now, let's throw a hypothetical dimension consistent with the 'religious-neutral' Constitutional reality of the US.

Let's just imagine for a moment, and I mean imagine, that all the fundamentalists in the US, from the very founding of the country were not fundamentalist of the BIBLE kind, but of the QUR'AN flavor.

Do you realize we as a nation wouldn't have any silly discussions about
... the age of the universe as offered by science???
... We wouldn't be having these hours and hours of 'fun', discussing the size of the ARC the guy had to build, or whether or not there should have been at least a couple of dinosaurs in it???
... NO more doubt about carbon dating, or big bang, or EVOLUTION?!?!?!?

Can you imagine??? A forum full of threads actually discussing science for science sake, philosophy for philosophy sake, politics and world affairs for politics and world affairs sake?!?!?!

How could such a world might have been possible?!?!?

Simply because the QUR'RAN, much like most other sacred books 'authors-gods' besides the bible, did not push the arrogance of their power trip (they all have a power trip) into fields they knew nothing about (like 'big number' mathematics). Picture this, 3 000 or so years ago, litteracy is power. Knowing how to read and write makes you nearly ... a god!!! There exists no trace, or documents of timeline of any kind. It is not unreasonnable to assume that whomever wrote the bible stuff figured that 3 000 or so years ago, from 0 years, was a huge number!!! Right!!! That's the 'god-like' scriptors' arrogance I'm referring to. The QUR'RAN folks showed mor wisdom on that front. They left it open ended!

So imagine,

'...Is EVOLUTION compatible with the Qur'an???'

Eventhough the question would never be raised, the answer, for the sake of our make believe exercise would be an overwhelming:

'... EVOLUTION IS FULLY COMPATIBLE WITH THE QUR'AN...'

Now don't get me wrong, this was stricty hypothetical. I wouldn't think for one second of trading one flavor of fundamentalism for another (there might be a few fundamentalists of the QUR'AN persuasion too?).

The purpose of this interlude was to suggest what might be possible for this religious-neutral Constitutional Nation, if it were actually 'free' of the TYRANNY from the 'free to practice', but 'not free to impose', 'tiny-fundamentalist-minority'.

I actually looked on an apologetist website and it said something similar so...nope.

Hey Eljay, are you serious???

Are you suggesting you would be willing to match the scientific credibility of your list of anonymous names here, with the 72 Nobels, whom were invited to testify in front of the Supreme Court (those 'robes' you referred to earlier), and whose authority helped the court reach verdicts against your anonymous ones???

None of your 'friends' were invited to testify from looking at the 72 Nobels.

What's your gameplan here friend???

Hara-Kiri?!?!?

And that first "scientist." I took his name and plugged it in and it brought up that horrendous website. Give me a break.

And the second guy on the list is a psychologist? WTF? What contributing interest does he have in Evolution? Or he just wants to stick his name on a list?

This list is tiny compared to the scientists who support evolution, the NCSE produced a list of scientists who supported evolution with over 800 names, and they are all called Steve (there are only 4 Steves on your list):

http://www.ncseweb.org/resources/article...

b) Project Steve is a joke inteded to poke fun at such lists. Science is not decided by a vote count, bullsh*t is bullsh*t no matter how many people believe it.

c) You have to look at the credentials of the scientists not just their names. Where are their PhDs from (how many went to Bible Universities which don't give a good education - e.g. Liberty University)? How many peer reviewed papers have they published? What is their reputation in the academic community?

d) All the scientists on your list who lived before Darwin can be discounted, as there was no other theory around at the time.

e) A linguistics expert or an electrical engineer (there are many with similar positions on your list) are only marginally more qualified to discuss evolution than the average person on the street, how many on the list are involved in Life Sciences?

Edit: I understand that you want to show that some creationists are intelligent. But even supposedly intelligent people can hold stupid beliefs, and when 50% of americans believe the creation story (thats 150 million) the laws of statistics state that some will be scientists (does it not worry you that in the scientific community your viewpoint is very very severely under represented, 50% of americans vs. approx. 0.1% scientists?).

Eljay:

These are just some that dissagree with you and I can list about 900 more with just the first name of steve.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Stephen J. Anderson*****
Commercial Officer, U.S. Export Assistance Center, Baltimore, U.S. Department of Commerce
Ph.D., Political Science, Massachusetts Institute of Technology

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Stephen Robert Anderson
Professor of Linguistics and Cognitive Science, Yale University
Ph.D., Linguistics, Massachusetts Institute of Technology
Fellow of the American Academy of Arts and Sciences

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Steven C. Anderson******
Emeritus Professor of Biology, University of the Pacific
Ph.D., Biology, Stanford University

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Steven D. Anisman*****
Fellow, Cardiovascular Disease, Worcester Medical Center
M.D., University of Vermont
Diplomate, American Board of Internal Medicine; Member, American College of Cardiology

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Steven Anschel******
Director, Local Public Health Sales, Netsmart Technologies, Inc.
Ph.D., Zoology, University of Maryland

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Steve J. Aplin*****
Calorimeter Coordinator, HERA experiment H1, Deutsches Elektronen-Synchrotron
Ph.D., Particle Physics, University of Portsmouth

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Stephen W. Arch
L. N. Ruben Professor of Biology, Reed College
Ph.D., Biology, University of Chicago

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Steve Archer****
Professor of Rangeland and Forest Resources, University of Arizona
Ph.D., Rangeland Ecosystem Science, Colorado State University, Ft. Collins

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

J. Steven Arnold*
Medical Director, Intensive Care and Sleep Medicine, St. Mary's Hospital
Medical Director, Respiratory Care and Sleep Medicine, Decatur Memorial Hospital
M.D., Pritzker School of Medicine, University of Chicago

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Stevan J. Arnold
Professor of Zoology, Oregon State University
Ph.D., Zoology, University of Michigan
Past President, Society for the Study of Evolution

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Steven E. Arnold*****
Assistant Professor of Chemistry, Auburn University, Montgomery
Ph.D., Chemistry, Louisiana State University

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Stephen M. Arthur****
Research Biologist, Alaska Department of Fish and Game
Ph.D., Wildlife Biology, University of Maine

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Steven N. Austad
Professor of Biological Sciences, University of Idaho
Ph.D., Zoology?, Purdue University
Author, Why We Age

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Stephen J. Aves******
Associate Professor of Molecular Biology, University of Exeter
Ph.D., Biochemistry, University of Bristol

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Stephen Azevedo*
Deputy Division Leader, Electronics Engineering Technologies Division, Lawrence Livermore National Laboratory
Ph.D., Electrical Engineering and Computing Science, University of California, Davis

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Steven L. Bachtel******
Principal Geologist, ConocoPhillips
Adjunct Professor, Department of Geology, University of Texas, Austin
Ph.D., Geology, Texas A&M University

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Stefano Bagnasco******
Physicist, Istituto Nazionale di Fisica Nucleare
Ph.D., Physics, University of Genova

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Stephen Charles Bain*
Reader in Diabetic Medicine and Honorary Consultant Physician, University of Birmingham & Birmingham Heartlands Hospital
M.D., University of Birmingham
Member of the Human Genetics Commission

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Stephen M. Baird
Professor of Clinical Pathology, University of California, San Diego School of Medicine
M.D., Stanford University School of Medicine

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Steven C. Bakker******
Psychiatrist, University Medical Center Utrecht
Ph.D., Molecular Genetics, Utrecht University

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Steven A. Balbus
Professor of Astronomy, University of Virginia
Ph.D., Physics, University of California, Berkeley

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Steven D. Balsley******
Unit Head, Safeguards Analytical Laboratory, International Atomic Energy Agency
Ph.D., Geological Sciences, Southern Methodist University

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Steven C. Bankes***
Chief Technology Officer, Evolving Logic; Professor of Information Science, RAND Graduate School
Ph.D., Computer Science, University of Colorado
Member, Center for the Study of the Origin and Evolution of Life, UCLA

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Steven M. Banks***
Control Systems Engineer, Australian Synchrotron Project
Ph.D., Physics, University of Melbourne

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Steven W. Barger*
Associate Professor of Geriatrics, Anatomy & Neurobiology, and Internal Medicine University of Arkansas for Medical Sciences
Research Health Scientist, Geriatric Research Education and Clinical Center, Central Arkansas Veterans Healthcare System
Ph.D., Cell Biology, Vanderbilt University

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Stephen John Barnett*
Research Scientist, South Australian Research and Development Institute
Ph.D., Microbial Ecology, University of Adelaide

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Stephen Barrett
Board Chairman, Quackwatch
M.D., Columbia University
Recipient of the 2001 Distinguished Service to Health Education Award from the American Association for Health Education

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Steve Barrett******
Senior Lecturer in Physics, University of Liverpool
Ph.D., Physics, University of East Anglia

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Stephen S. Barshay*****
Fellow Scientist, Westinghouse Electric Company
Ph.D., Chemistry, Massachusetts Institute of Technology

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Steven W. Barwick****
Professor of Physics, University of California, Irvine
Ph.D., Physics, University of California, Berkeley

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Steven J. Baskauf*
Senior Lecturer, Biological Sciences, Vanderbilt University
Ph.D., Biology, Vanderbilt University

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Steven M. Bass****
Software Architect, Practical Engineering Inc.
Ph.D., Chemistry, University of Rochester

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Steven Bates******
Lecturer in Molecular Microbiology, University of Exeter
Ph.D., Molecular Biology, University of Leicester

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Stephen Battersby*
Consultant, New Scientist magazine
Ph.D., Astrophysics, Imperial College

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Steven C. Beadle*
Senior Associate Geologist, LFR Levine-Fricke
Ph.D., Earth and Planetary Sciences, Johns Hopkins University
Certified Engineering Geologist, State of California

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Stephane A. Beaudin******
Research Associate, Division of Nutritional Sciences, Cornell University
Ph.D., Neuroscience, University of Montreal

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Steven K. Beckendorf
Professor of Genetics and Development, University of California, Berkeley
Ph.D., ?, California Institute of Technology

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Stephen M. Becker****
Postdoctoral Fellow, Virginia Commonwealth University; Visiting Assistant Professor, Mary Washington University
Ph.D., Immunology, Virginia Commonwealth University

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Stephen P. Becker******
Postdoctoral Fellow, Bureau of Economic Geology, University of Texas at Austin
Ph.D., Geochemistry, Virginia Polytechnic Institute and State University

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Stephen Beckerman
Associate Professor of Anthropology, Pennsylvania State University
Ph.D., Anthropology, University of New Mexico

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Stephanie Bedhomme******
Post-doctoral Associate Researcher, Animal Evolutionary Ecology Group, Institute for Evolution and Biodiversity, University of Muenster
Ph.D., Evolutionary Biology, University of Montpellier
Lead author, "Prevalence-dependent costs of parasite virulence," PLoS Biology 2005; 3: e262.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Steven R. Beissinger
Chair and Professor of Environmental Science, Policy, and Management, University of California, Berkeley
Ph.D., Natural Resource Ecology, University of Michigan

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Stephen P. Bell******
Professor, Department of Biology, Massachusetts Institute of Technology; Investigator, Howard Hughes Medical Institute
Ph.D., Biochemistry, University of California, Berkeley
Coauthor, Molecular Biology of the Gene, 5th ed.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Steve Bell***
Key Skills Manager, Coleg Sir Gar / Carmarthenshire College
Ph.D., Molecular Biology, University of Wales, Swansea

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Steven M. Bellovin*
AT&T Fellow, Network Services Research Lab at AT&T Labs Research
Ph.D., Computer Science, University of North Carolina, Chapel Hill
Member, National Academy of Engineering

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Stephanie J. Belovich
Chair, Basic Sciences Department, Ohio College of Podiatric Medicine
Ph.D., Biomedical Sciences -- Biological Anthropology, Kent State University

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Steve G. Belovich*
Chief Executive Officer, SmartData, Inc.
Ph.D., Electrical and Computer Engineering, Cleveland State University

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Stephen P. Bentivenga*
Associate Professor of Biology, University of Wisconsin, Oshkosh
Ph.D., Plant Pathology, Kansas State University
Author, "Ecology and evolution of arbuscular mycorrhizal fungi," McIlvainea (1997) 13: 30-39

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Steven Bergman*
Faculty Associate, Department of Geosciences, University of Texas, Dallas
Ph.D., Geology, Princeton University

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Steve P. Bernier******
Postdoctoral Fellow, Institut Pasteur
Ph.D., Microbiology, University of Calgary


Now you were saying?

Excuse me - but would you like to determine which one of these scientists are not "accredited"
and what your criteria for being accredited is?

Each one of these people are a part of the "Scientific Community" and I'm S-O-O-O-O looking forward to you trying to get out of this one.

Do you think that you are not biased based on your World View? I told you before - you need to sue that college for fraud, because they didn't teach you how to learn about anything.

Voile;

It's a joy to hear from you again my friend.

Hmmm... let's see. Nobel prize. That's the SAG award of science. And you're proving my point - the scientific community is split along world view as to the validity of whether or not science can disprove the flood. One's determination of who is winning the argument is dependent solely on one's world view.

As I said - name me one member of the scientific community who feels the biblical flood did not happen because science proves it - I will name a member of that community who will refute it.

That's all I'm saying. Krimsa's claim is the the bibleical flood has been proven not to have occured, and that, and I quote



The list is there to demonstrate to her that these members of the scientific community - though not household names - worthy qualified members none-the-less, prove her statement wrong.

It's what she asked to do - so I did.

Her response is that they're christains, and therefore not considered part of the scientific community.

And by the way - it's a partial list of fairly current scientists. I didn't bother to list the numerous scientists who over the past two centuries, believed in Genesis as more than a fairytale, who are responsible for some of the greatest discoveries in science that we have - as well as being the Professors who have educated the scientist today.

So what it boils down to - is your right - the argument is pontless, as it is making assertions that can't be supported - like the one by Krimsa in the beginning of this post.

I'll bet you my salary for life that I can find the 900 christian scientists who stand opposed. The argument isn't that there aren't members of the scientific community who think the Biblical Flood did not occur - the argument is that the ENTIRE scientific community is NOT in agreement on this. It is contingent on WORLD VIEW.

Are any of these "Steve's" Christians? How many?
Here - let me questimate.... Less than 5 per cent? If so - you've made my point.


Oh yes, and in case you didn't know this - you cannot get hired in a Secular university if you are a Creation Scientist. You're not going to find too many of them if your going to list College Professors.

Man, it took me forever to read through this thing, very interesting though.

I've seen this debate for years now, argued from both sides, and even did a fair amount of research back in the day.

This is just my personal opinion, but I've concluded that evolution ... is a theory. Much like electricity, relativity, gravity and any other natural observable process that has undergone rigorous scientific testing and experimentation (with the math to support it).

The bible, does not need to be proved. The concept of the bible is such that trying to prove or disprove it, essentially becomes a moot point. In the end it's something you take it on faith, and that's something everyone can agree on, even the bible. (Of course, one thing I've always wondered was: Assume Adam and Eve were the first people on earth. They had children. Now we all know the fate of one child, but concerning Cain... who did he marry? or a better question I guess would be: who did he have children with, because he obviously did have children?)

Now is it possible that what the bible says is true? Sure. Can anyone really prove or disprove it? No, those events happened thousands of years ago, even archeological evidence would be sketchy at best.
Here's a hypothetical situation to illustrate why you can't claim the bible fact or fiction either way: lets assume that it's the year 4009... that's 2000 years into the future, and some future human digs up a Blockbuster. It's a huge find for those future humans because it's one of the only few caches of such rich information about the early 21st century. Now lets say these humans find the show "The Office". Now, would it be so difficult to assume that those humans may actually think characters from the show are real? Or lets say they also find a real documentary about people working in offices. How can they draw any conclusions as to what is real and what is not? Maybe a fan website about "The Office" survived, and this website treats characters from The Office as real, the wouldn't it be evidence that "The Office" is real? Or maybe the website explicitly expresses "The Office" as a fictional show, then would those that believe "The Office" to be real just say that a website is not credible enough evidence?

It's impossible for those future humans to answer all those questions, in the same way it's impossible for us to answer all the questions about a book written over the course of thousands of years.

I say, it's quite pointless to argue the validity of the bible because no one side can come to any definitive conclusions about whether it's real or not. I mean, honestly, it was written before some countries even existed, transcribed into many many different translations and oh btw it's not even complete (Holy Roman Empire, when they standardized the bible to the books we see today, left out some of the books to preserve "continuity" or something to that effect. So those who don't see any glaring contradictions in the bible, it's because it was done intentionally).

Evolution on the other hand... if you want to argue that it's possible that it may be wrong, sure go ahead, but then you're in the 8th dimension (in that plane where the all possible universes or realities meet). Scientifically, it's pretty much a solid theory, hasn't been disproved yet.

Eljay said:



I personally do not consider any of those Christian "scientists" legitimate UNTIL I can research each and every one of their backgrounds. My comment that the scientific community rejects the specifics of flood geology still stands as valid. You also failed to respond to my rebuttal post so here it is again.