Something to ponder.

Darwinian thinking clarifies and deepens religious faith
Michael Reiss: Commentary

This year will bring an avalanche of books, lectures, television programmes and articles on Charles Darwin. It is 200 years since he was born and 150 years since he was pushed to publish his On the Origin of Species earlier than he intended by the arrival of a letter from Alfred Russel Wallace, the naturalist who, independently, had the same theory of natural selection that Darwin had supposed all his own.

Since Darwin wasn’t alone in thinking up the theory of natural selection or in assembling evidence in support of evolution, are we right to make such a song and dance of his anniversary?

The short answer is “yes”. On the Origin of Species is the most important biology book yet written and Darwin has done as much as anyone, including Copernicus, Newton, Marx and Freud, to change how we see ourselves.

So why do I, with a fairly conventional Christian faith, albeit someone with an academic background in evolutionary biology, believe that a Darwinian worldview matters more than ever?

Above all, Darwin decentres humanity. In this he completes the work that Copernicus and Galileo began. We are not the centre of the Universe. The Universe existed long before we came on the scene.

This decentring does not, of course, mean that we matter any the less. Rather, it helps us to appreciate that we do not sit in a distinct category from the rest of creation. As a shorthand, other sentient creatures can be considered rather as young children in terms of their capacity to think, to feel and to experience pain and pleasure. The great apes that are heading towards extinction in the wild and are still used in some countries for medical research really are our relatives.

Darwin was more than a little apprehensive about how his work would be received, realising that it would be controversial. In the event, the reception was generally positive. Even the Church of England accepted its message partly, perhaps, because it had little wish to box itself into a corner as the Roman Catholic Church had over Galileo two centuries earlier.

However, there are many who find a Darwinian view of life incompatible with their understanding of God’s action in the world. Creationists prefer a literal reading of the early chapters of the Bible or the Koran. In my opinion the Darwinian worldview is not just compatible with religious faith but deepens it and makes aspects of it more intelligible.

Consider the old but vital question as to why God allows suffering. A way of answering seems clearer if one sees God as giving creation the ability to evolve itself, including the capacity to feel pain and pleasure. Perhaps natural selection, as Richard Dawkins has argued, is inevitably written into the fabric of the world. Perhaps, too, those with a Christian faith do well to remember that the Word of God is a person more than parts of a book.

- Michael Reiss is Professor of Science Education and Assistant Director at the Institute of Education, University of London, and a priest in the Church of England

That's an interesting take. Intelligent design?
It seems a very touchy subject and a lot to consider.
On one hand, any free thinking person has to just accept that evolution is a valid concept, if not a fact.
On the other, it's difficult as a Christian, Muslim, or any number of opposing constructs, to just toss out theological teachings.
You're right though, imo. There's a lot to ponder.
For me, evolution doesn't deny the existence of God.

first off it's a theory.....second....

no way I fell from flossom in the sky

fell into the water

turned into a tad pole

crawled out

turned into a monkey

then into an ape


and then me.....


and if were the case why are the gorillas and monkeys and tad poles still here....I have done quite a number of series on mingle to debunk the theory of evolution....and I will say again....over the last 300 years I will give you...Show me one animal that has gone from one specific species to a complete new one...A dog is a dog and always has been.....went from a wolf down to the yapper dog...but none the less still within it's own species....


Please show me.....



for me this is what happen



GOD SAID




AND BAM



IT WAS

^ watch this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r5J0cSnYnFg

FCL, I have no hope to convince you otherwise, but let me explain why your understanding of evolution is just plain wrong.

You where born of your mother and father. Your parents are transitional just like your are. Your father is a transition between his mother and father and you. Your mother is likewise a transition between her mother and father and you.

We are all transitional, every generation has the opportunity to roll the dice and acquire both positive, or beneficial changes, neutral or non interacting changes, or detrimental changes to our dna. There are many things within our environment, and within the biosphere that interact with our bodies minds and genes.

Every time you get the flu, the virus that is the flu makes changes to parts of your dna, so that your cells when infected can create and disperse the virus further into your body, most of these changed cells are destroyed by your immunoreaction to the virus. However, nothing is perfect.

Your body fails to destroy all the changes, if it is successful in fighting off the virus, then the virus's capability to reproduce was destroyed, but that does not mean that every change made is gone . . .

This is but a single of MANY MANY MANY ways that our genes get changed over time.

Have you every heard of sickle cell anemia?
http://sickle.bwh.harvard.edu/malaria_sickle.html

This is an evolutionary change that is both negative, and positive in the sense, that it causes problems becuase of the genetic change the proteins that are manufactured to create the red blood cells do not properly erect the cell walls of the blood cell and cause deformations to the blood cells.

The positive effect is that the person is immune to malaria.
Dependent on the environment (ie lots of flies spreading malaria) it could be a great survival advantage to have sickle cell even with the negative effects. If half your tribe die off from malaria are you survive to reproduce . . . .


I think its simple to see that evolution is fact, there are millions of examples all around us of this.

Changes that increase survivability can be diverse and come from places you would never expect.

Enough small changes over time add up . . . . its the amazing length and scale of the time period of the earth that allows for the amazing diversity of life that we see all around us, this time period coupled with the plasticity of proteins and life forming molecules is what has forged the beauty of planet earth.

There truly is a majesty in evolution.

Neither of these two representations actually refute the other.

I don't agree with evolution simply because the timeline involved should have produced more "missing links" in the fossil record.

I'm not exactly a 6000 year creation guy either, in fact I find this quite contrary to my study of the bible. Through study, prayer and reseach I have come to believe all fossil remains were deposited during the period between Genisis 1:1 and 1:2 which included millions maybe billions of years. Fossils belong to the "world that then was" spoken of in II Peter 3:4,5,6.

I don't intend to start a feud over religion on here, just expressing my views and referencing my sources.

Do you know what a fossil is? Do you know how a fossil comes to be?

So of all living creatures why would some get fossilized more then others?

Why would some never or almost never be fossilized?

There will be a test, please do your homework.

I learned what a fossil was in junior high school as well as conditions necessary for its formation.

Because the conditions prerequisite to forming a fossil(ie.sediment and liquid) were not present?

In the future I promise to do mine and refrain from doing yours.

So first to assume I don't know of Darwin's Theory (Emphasis on theory) is just crazy and second of to tell me I came from an ape....I by the changes your talking about within a species...but no way in hell I can or will ever change into a complete new species..and like I said if this is the case then show me one. I also think that eventually man will loose his little toe...but through that change I am not going to turn into a shark...I am not disputing evolution within a species...I am disputing the fact that man has been anything other then man....as God made him. Now even I remember learning in school and seeing the picture of the man turning into an Ape Darwins Theory.......is poppy ****...and just because they might of upped it up or put more theories to it....just doesn't make it so.

Theological memes are pretty sticky contrusts to be sure, but that doesn't mean one can't compartmentalize. And to realize by inspection that theological teachings themselves have evolved when they couldn't avoid dealing with the contradictions any other way.

Take slavery for example. No good contemporary Christian would dare take the O.T. approach to its accomodation. So, a meme had to evolve to answer the difficult questions.

At some point in time it occurs to many people who ponder the question deeply that theological thought was vastly inferior in dealing with crises such as the Black Death in Europe in the middle ages. And to open inquiry as to whether it itself could ever have evolved to handle such crises on its own without the Scientific Method and the abandonment of Magical Thinking.

Such forces of intellectual natural selection are even now in play as the question of stem cell research is debated. Hopefully, intellectual Luddites will not win the day on this one-- the stakes are pretty high.

-Kerry O.

So given what you know, this really applies as a reason for not believing in evolution?

We have thousands of fossils, with many many many transitional forms found and analyzed, some even by there dna. It is completely understandable why there are gaps, stating there are gaps and saying that is the reason you don't believe in this theory is not a logical argument.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0puoduvfBxA&feature=PlayList&p=A372936E819B42B7&playnext=1&index=14


Evolution has been proven beyond any measure of if/then statements. The fine details of evolution are being worked out and we do not know how all animals no less the really large kingdoms evolved we do have a nearly complete map of every known species that fits into a tree so perfectly that its silly to look at it and not see evolution.

To say you don't believe it is also not an argument against evolution, to say you don't think we came from monkeys, or apes just shows you do not understand the theory.

Evolution does not say we came from apes or monkeys. We are primates right now. That distinction was made by a christian based on taxonomic guidelines and he did an excellent job.

you know nothing about evolution, and because you obviously do not understand it you fear it.
You should read a book besides the bible some time.

[
SO sorry, I thought we were talking apes to humans here, not fish. Please forgive me. There is a lot of good entertainment on youtube. I think I'll go watch some Illuminati stuff on there.

not only do you know nothing of evolution you don't even know what a theory is.
Gravity is a theory, the earth revolving around the sun is a theory, do not believe them because they are theories?

It's easy to be smug, I guess...
That's right Mr Genuis... I'm responsible (personally) for all your problems. You know everything and I know nothing. You are all wise and sincerely care about your brother man, while I'm a slave trading, witch burning, heretic stoning, brainwashed fundie Jesus freak who shouldn't even be allowed out of my straight jacket long enough to express my ignorant opinion, let alone engage in casual discussion with all the free thinkers like yourself.

Give me a break already... I'm sure you have some big words to look up for your next rant so please don't waste your valuable time on me...
Besides, I have Gays to bash,wars to start, women to subjigate and heads to lop off...

Sheesh...

We did not evolve from Apes!!
That is NOT how evolution works.
If we did evolve from apes that would disprove evolution.

Allen,

You're putting words in my mouth. I didn't flame you, I was _trying_ to appeal to your sense of moderation, so I'm pretty taken aback at the hostility I got back. I just thought you were the reasonable questioning sort, and to that end, was trying to offer another perspective.

Don't know where the bile came from, and had I an inkling that this would be the result, I wouldn't have even answered your post.

Pax vobiscum.


-Kerry O.

If you're sincere, I apologize and beg your forgiveness but the way it read to me, along with other pointed responses I've encountered in other threads, was that because of my faith, my points of view not only held no merit, they were also downright hypocritical.
I don't claim to know all the bible's mysteries. I also don't hold with every possible interpretation of it, especially concerning the Old Testament. Sometimes (oftentimes) because of my faith and my openness about it, I'm insulted from many sides at once in many subtle and not so subtle ways.
I'd of been able to appreciate and grant due respect had you not used my post for an example, but I admit that my response was in error.

Allen,

Perhaps it would help if I were to tell you that I hold the Religious Society of Friends, a.k.a. the Quakers and their concept of seeking the Inner Light in high regard. William Penn, as you know, was the founder of Pennsylvania and Philadelphia, The City of Brotherly Love. While I don't subscribe to his and George Fox's religious teachings per se, I stand with them against the strictures of a dogmatic society ruled by theologians seeking imposition of faith and belief.

My outlook on things religious mirrors that of Thomas Jefferson who said something to the effect that "It doesn't matter to me if my neighbor believes in 1 God or 20. It neither breaks my legs or picks my pocket."

I can't help, however, but see what life for people like Fox and Penn was like under Cromwell and the Anglicans and Puritans. I think there's a lesson there for today's religious community in their egalitarian views on religious and societal tolerance. Penn's pacifist ideals and Fox's belief that "God who made the world did not dwell in temples made with hands". They sought to create an ethical utopia in that area that came to be known as Penn's Woods, or Pennsylvania.

Did they succeed? I think so, because as is sometimes said in engineering, "Perfection is the enemy of Good Enough". Still, I can't help but be wary of the Puritans and other religious fundamentalists seeking to undermine it in favor of their Authoritarian views of religion and society.

If you think I'm an enemy of such, you calculate correctly, and I make no apologies.

-Kerry O.