It had always worked before. Up until 9/11- every case of passengers
and/or flight crew resisting hijackers ended up in many passengers
dying- with the occasional lawsuit against the airline.


Every case of the crew cooperating resulted in a nice, safe landing of
the plane with no deaths. And the airline occasionally losing a mil or
two (peanuts compared to the suits) to some Swiss bank account
somewhere.


9/11 was the FIRST exception to decades of autonomic history.

Anyways. It's time for me to go. I got stuff to do in the morning that
trumps this forum. However fun it is.


Ironically, the starter of this thread- her account is now innactive.
Some things just outlive their creators.

Im not sure about that but....


_______________________________

Lt. Col. Guy S. Razer, MS, U.S. Air Force (ret) – Retired U.S. Air Force
fighter pilot (F-111, F-15E, F-16, B-1, F-18, Mig-29, and Suu-22). Flew
combat missions over Iraq. Former instructor at the USAF Fighter
Weapons School and NATO’s Tactical Leadership Program. 20-year Air
Force career.
Statement to this website 3/25/07: "After 4+ years of research since
retirement in 2002, I am 100% convinced that the attacks of September
11, 2001 were planned, organized, and committed by treasonous
perpetrators that have infiltrated the highest levels of our government.
It is now time to take our country back.

The "collapse" of WTC Building 7 [610 feet tall, 47 stories, and not hit
by an airplane] shows beyond any doubt that the demolitions were
pre-planned. There is simply no way to demolish a 47-story building (on
fire) over a coffee break. It is also impossible to report the
building’s collapse before it happened, as BBC News did, unless it was
pre-planned. Further damning evidence is Larry Silverstein's video
taped confession in which he states "they made that decision to pull
[WTC 7] and we watched the building collapse."

We cannot let the pursuit of justice fail. Those of us in the military
took an oath to "support and defend the Constitution of the United
States against all enemies, foreign and domestic". Just because we have
retired does not make that oath invalid, so it is not just our
responsibility, it is our duty to expose the real perpetrators of 9/11
and bring them to justice, no matter how hard it is, how long it takes,
or how much we have to suffer to do it.

We owe it to those who have gone before us who executed that same oath,
and who are doing the same thing in Iraq and Afghanistan right now.
Those of us who joined the military and faithfully executed orders that
were given us had to trust our leaders. The violation and abuse of that
trust is not only heinous, but ultimately the most accurate definition
of treason!"


Member: Scholars for 9/11 Truth and Justice Association Statement:
"Scholars for 9/11 Truth and Justice is a non-partisan organization
consisting of independent researchers and activists engaged in
uncovering the true nature of the September 11, 2001 attacks."


Member: Pilots for 9/11 Truth Association Statement: "Pilots for 9/11
Truth is an organization of aviation professionals and pilots throughout
the globe that have gathered together for one purpose. We are committed
to seeking the truth surrounding the events of the 11th of September
2001. Our main focus concentrates on the four flights, maneuvers
performed and the reported pilots. We do not offer theory or point
blame. However, we are focused on determining the truth of that fateful
day since the United States Government doesn't seem to be very
forthcoming with answers."


Website: http://www.myspace.com/supereagle69

Since you have managed to bury this information by continous posting I
bring it back.

'Before I jump out to take a look at that list I want to mention one
thing.

I used to live in Las Vegas.

The prefered method of rebuilding a casino in Vegas is to implode the
old property and rebuild it.

It takes weeks of prepration to set a building up to implode. It can not
be hidden from prying eyes. It requires truckloads of equipment and the
explosives used must be handled very carefully.

When the building is actually brought down the effect is very clear.

I watched the towers fall as did most americans. After seeing several
casinos brought down I can tell you that what I saw did not look like a
man made implosion. It looked to me as if the weight of the floors above
the structual damage caused by the planes caused the supports to fail.

One of the advantages of being a wanderer is working in many different
fields. I have worked with precast concrete. When precast concrete is
subjected to high pressure impact it crumbles and most of it becomes
dust.'

It has been stated that the pilots were war vets and would not have
allowed the hijackers to seize the plane.

Prior to 9/11 the prefered method to handle a hijacking was to acceded
to demands and let ground negotiators handle it. That is how those
pilots were trained to deal with the situation and that is how they delt
with it.

If you don't believe this check with any airline security office and
they will tell you the same thing.

yes, I read that, and watch this.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z9b4D-aO3zY


____________________________________

Ernst Welteke – Former President of Deutsche Bundesbank (German Federal
Bank) 1999 - 2004. German politician and political economist. Member
of the Hessian State Parliament, 1974 - 1995.

Telegraph Article 9/23/01: "Ernst Welteke, president of the Bundesbank,
said financial investigators had found strong indications of suspicious
dealings in gold and oil, as well as unusual movements in airline and
insurance shares, in the days before the September 11 attacks in the
United States. ..."There are ever clearer signs that there were
activities on international financial markets that must have been
carried out with the necessary expert knowledge."
http://www.telegraph.co.uk


Washington Post Article 9/22/01: "The president of Germany's central
bank said today there was mounting evidence that people connected to the
attacks in New York and Washington sought to profit from the tragedy by
engaging in "terrorism insider trading" on European stock and commodity
markets.

Ernst Welteke, head of the Bundesbank, said a preliminary review by
German regulators and bank researchers showed there were highly
suspicious sales of shares in airlines and insurance companies, along
with major trades in gold and oil markets, before Sept. 11 that suggest
they were conducted with advance knowledge of the attacks.

Welteke said his researchers came across what he considers almost
irrefutable proof of insider trading as recently as Thursday, but he
refused to release details pending further consultations with regulators
in other countries.

"What we found makes us sure that people connected to the terrorists
must have been trying to profit from this tragedy,'' he told European
finance ministers and central bankers."
http://www.webcom.com/hrin/magazine/brussels.html


Editor's note: The 9/11 Commission states in its Monograph on Terrorist
Financing, "The U.S. government investigation unequivocally concluded
that there was no evidence of illicit trading in the U.S. markets with
knowledge of the terrorist attacks. The Commission staff, after an
independent review of the government investigation, has discovered no
reason to doubt this conclusion." See also Paul Zarembka.


Bio: http://64.233.179.104:

This link is suspect to me because of several things I see in it. One I
emailed you about.

The other is the way they tell you of the simularity of the colapse of
the buildings while showing you an animated sequence (animation means it
was created to look simular) but never show an overlay of the actual
footage of each. (animations will behave in the way the animators
program it) Actuall footage overlays would show the actuall differences
between the fall of the towers and the implosion of bldg 7. i.e.
building 7 did NOT fall straight down. One corner and side did the
other fell inward and buckled then dropped. That is a controlled but
hurried implosion and fits the time frame they would have had available
to rig it.

yep, I disagree, but this guy is for real, ask him.


__________________________________________


Richard Curtis, PhD – Adjunct Professor of Philosophy at a variety of
Seattle area colleges.

Guest Editorial "9/11 Commission Report is a Lie" Seattle
Post-Intelligencer 5/16/06: "The commission's conclusions and
recommendations should be totally rejected. Its story is full of lies,
distortions and omissions of fact." http://seattlepi.nwsource


Speech 7/1/06: "... there is no evidence to support the commonly held
belief that 19 Arab religious fanatics were responsible for the attack
of 9/11. And further, the evidence we do have strongly supports the
alternative theory that the attacks were actually an inside job. ... The
government and our media have endlessly repeated a Big Lie about 9/11.
The official version of this lie was published in a book called The 9/11
Commission Report." http://72.14.253.104


Member: Scholars for 9/11 Truth Association Statement: "Research proves
the current administration has been dishonest about what happened in New
York and Washington, D.C. The World Trade Center was almost certainly
brought down by controlled demolitions and that the available relevant
evidence casts grave doubt on the government's official story about the
attack on the Pentagon."

From your own cut and paste.

'...that there were activities on international financial markets that
must have been carried out with the necessary expert knowledge.'

did you see what it says ... INTERNATIONAL markets.

Your also posted that...
'Washington Post Article 9/22/01: "The president of Germany's central
bank said today there was mounting evidence that people connected to the
attacks in New York and Washington sought to profit from the tragedy by
engaging in "terrorism insider trading" on European stock and commodity
markets.'

Your post remember..statement says EUROPEAN stock and commodity markets.

You post continues with this cut and paste.
'Editor's note: The 9/11 Commission states in its Monograph on Terrorist
Financing, "The U.S. government investigation unequivocally concluded
that there was no evidence of illicit trading in the U.S. markets with
knowledge of the terrorist attacks. The Commission staff, after an
independent review of the government investigation, has discovered no
reason to doubt this conclusion.'

From your own post mind you.

Evidence exist of trading on the INTERNATIONAL markets and the EUROPEAN
markets but not on the US markets and this information was found to be
true by more than one group.

What is the point I am seeing. The terrorists knew they would have
their assests frozen as soon as the US started investigating. They made
sure they would have other sources of income. (and we did freeze their
known assets did we not).

But remember...its not my point, its experts points. are you an
expert????

until then I will continue the information of experts, but, thanks for
your debate, I just wish you would back up about 3 pages and debate some
real WAR HEROS and challenge them...but I know, thats a tough one...but
good luck.

______________________________________


Gray Brechin, PhD – Lecturer and Visiting Scholar, Geography Department,
University of California at Berkeley.

Signatory: Petition requesting a reinvestigation of 9/11:
"We want truthful answers to question. … As Americans of conscience, we
ask for four things:
An immediate investigation by New York Attorney General Eliot Spitzer
Immediate investigation in Congressional Hearings.
Media attention to scrutinize and investigate the evidence.
The formation of a truly independent citizens-based inquiry."
http://www.911truth.org/article.php


Bio: http://www.graybrechin.com/GBrechinBiography.h

Why would I want to challenge them.

They have a right to their opinions as do I.

My point was that for those who have tried to twist the information to
say that someone in the US used prior knowledge of 9/11 to make a profit
on the markets YOUR OWN posts say otherwise.

INTERNATIONAL markets saw suspicious activity.
EUROPEAN markets saw suspicious activity.

Not United States markets. Claimed by 9/11 commission - backed up by
indepentent sources.

All in all it has been a good day for debate. I bid you goodnight sir.

Well, they'll never believe the truth. At least until someone puts them
on an anti-schizo programs. But we've had a fun exercise. And I feel
we've achieved the secondary goal in any debate (or primary, if you're
in politics/big buisiness). Which is not to convince the opponent(s),
but to convince the audience.


Although it's quite possible the audience got tired of muddling through
all the mindless copy/paste material and left long ago.

AB gee, I dont know why you would want to challenge them, but you
challenge me? so go figure.... also you dont want a 2 or 3 million
dollars either (even to give to charity) but thats your deal.


____________________________________________


Ed Asner – Seven-time Emmy Award-winning actor. Mary Tyler Moore Show,
Lou Grant, Roots, Rich Man, Poor Man.

Open letter 4/26/04: " I would like to suggest to you emphatically that
the 9-11 truth movement is the most pressing issue of the peace &
justice movement today. ...

There are many disturbing issues around 9-11 that have yet to be
examined in any meaningful way by our media, Congress, and even by the
9-11 Commission. These include accountability for the massive breakdown
of air defense and plane intercept procedures as described in FAA and
DOD regulations, which were violated on 9-11.

This breakdown and astounding unpreparedness by U.S. domestic defense
agencies is puzzling to say the least, given the detailed reports our
government had of the coming attacks, that were bizarrely suppressed by
key officials. ...

I urge all to read The New Pearl Harbor: Disturbing Questions About the
Bush Administration and 9/11 by David Ray Griffin, and endorsed by
Howard Zinn, and to view "The Great Deception" documentary by acclaimed
Canadian television journalist Barrie Zwicker. ...

We must look deeply at the events leading up to, on and since 9-11. We
must demand full 9-11 truth." http://www.septembereleventh.org


Signatory: Petition requesting a reinvestigation of 9/11:
"We want truthful answers to question. … As Americans of conscience, we
ask for four things:
An immediate investigation by New York Attorney General Eliot Spitzer
Immediate investigation in Congressional Hearings.
Media attention to scrutinize and investigate the evidence.
The formation of a truly independent citizens-based inquiry."
http://www.911truth.org/article



Bio: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edward_Asner

When a petition is circulated in your state to bring changes or review
by officials how many people does it take to get those changes actually
adjudicated.

Even for a city council it requires more than 400.

Given the population of the United States what percentage of our
population is 400 anyway? perhaps 3 tenths of a percentage point? or
is it a thousandth of a percentage point?

Did you sign the petition?

I did not because it is sponsored by an advertisment for a political
party (Which makes it immediately suspect).

and as far as these people being experts. I noticed a lot of them
worked in diferent PR jobs during their carreers. PR = propaganda.

I notice several that worked in Economics. (Last time I checked
economics had nothing to do with engineering).

Just because a person was in the military does not mean they have a
grasp of stratigic and tactical concerns. (a military PR person is
still a PR person).

what are you talking about petitons?


Were in hell and you want to show the devil some sigs????


This government has our victims over in Iraq over lies killing hundreds
of thousands of people because Bush says we got to kill them over there
so they wont get row boats and kill us over here, and you want
signitures???

that wont work, they dont care about the peoples will, havent you
figured that out yet?


_______________________________________


Peter Lance, MA, JD – Witness before the 9/11 Commission. Five-time
Emmy Award-winning television producer, screenwriter, journalist, and
author. Former Chief Investigative Correspondent for ABC News, 20/20,
Nightline, and World News Tonight. Writer and story editor for NBC's
Miami Vice and Crime Story. Co-executive producer of CBS' Wiseguy.
Co-creator of ABC's Missing Persons. Writer and producer on NBC's JAG
and UPN's The Sentinel. Author of Gross Misconduct (1993), First Degree
Burn (1997), Stingray: Lethal Tactics of the Sole Survivor (expose of
the Survivor television show) (2000), 1000 Years for Revenge:
International Terrorism and the FBI (2004), Cover Up: What the
Government is Still Hiding about the War on Terror (2005), Triple Cross
(2006).

Interview 1/27/05: "Question: In Cover Up, you show that the government
has covered up its own counter-terror failures. Tell us a bit about
these.

Peter Lance: The second half of Cover Up is a painstaking analysis of
the 9/11 Commission and it's effective whitewash. I go into great detail
with evidence of



How the Commission was hopelessly skewed on both the right and the left;


How the staff was riddled with conflicts of interest -- almost half of
the staff members were alumni of the very intelligence agencies they
were asked to judge;


How both Democrats and Republicans, cherry picked evidence and limited
the scope of the investigation to 1998 forward in order -- I believe --
to ignore the culpability of the FBI, CIA and other agencies for failing
to stop Osama bin Laden's 12 year juggernaut;


How, in effect, the fix was in on this Commission from day one -- there
was an intentional decision to limit the damage across three
presidential administrations and eliminate ANY accountability or blame
for what I call the biggest intelligence failure since The Trojan
Horse." http://frontpagemag.com




Website: http://www.peterlance.com

Yep Peter Lance...

Author on several conspiracy or coverup books.

I wonder how much he will make on the book he'll surely right about
this?

Oh yeah you don't beleive people are making money off this.

and you have the chance to get 2 million dollars and give it to any
charity you wish, but you say you cant.

And this is the only guy out of 400+ that you dont like his work or
history? Pleazzzz

Help me out, cuzz im crazy, what others do you find offensive?

maybe this guy?


Do you have a problem with Col. Bowman?


you crack me up with your excuses.

_____________________________________________


Col. Robert Bowman, PhD, U.S. Air Force (ret) – Director of Advanced
Space Programs Development under Presidents Ford and Carter. U.S. Air
Force fighter pilot with over 100 combat missions. (PhD in Aeronautics
and Nuclear Engineering, Cal Tech). Former Head of the Department of
Aeronautical Engineering and Assistant Dean at the U.S. Air Force
Institute of Technology. Also taught Mathematics and English at the
University of Southern California, the University of Maryland, and
Phillips University.
Video 9/11/04: "A lot of these pieces of information, taken together,
prove that the official story, the official conspiracy theory of 9/11 is
a bunch of hogwash. It’s impossible. … There’s a second group of facts
having to do with the cover up. … Taken together these things prove that
high levels of our government don’t want us to know what happened and
who’s responsible.…

Who gained from 9/11? Who covered up crucial information about 9/11?
And who put out the patently false stories about 9/11 in the first
place? When you take those three things together, I think the case is
pretty clear that it’s highly placed individuals in the administration
with all roads passing through **** Cheney.

I think the very kindest thing that we can say about George W. Bush and
all the people in the U.S. Government that have been involved in this
massive cover-up, the very kindest thing we can say is that they were
aware of impending attacks and let them happen. Now some people will
say that’s much too kind, however even that is high treason and
conspiracy to commit murder." http://video.go


Signatory: Petition requesting a reinvestigation of 9/11:
"We want truthful answers to question. … As Americans of conscience, we
ask for four things:
An immediate investigation by New York Attorney General Eliot Spitzer
Immediate investigation in Congressional Hearings.
Media attention to scrutinize and investigate the evidence.
The formation of a truly independent citizens-based inquiry."
http://www.911truth.org/article



Member: Pilots for 9/11 Truth Association Statement: "Pilots for 9/11
Truth is an organization of aviation professionals and pilots throughout
the globe that have gathered together for one purpose. We are committed
to seeking the truth surrounding the events of the 11th of September
2001. Our main focus concentrates on the four flights, maneuvers
performed and the reported pilots. We do not offer theory or point
blame. However, we are focused on determining the truth of that fateful
day since the United States Government doesn't seem to be very
forthcoming with answers."


Website: http://www.thepatriots.us

And you still believe Iraq had anything to do with 9/11. Weren't you
paying attention? Iraq was about over 20 years of Saddam's blatant
abuses. It was a tactically ineffectual war, of that there's no doubt.
But it wasn't about 9/11.

Now AFGHANISTAN- there's a war that was about 9/11.

And of course we can't get the millions. Because even if we proved it,
they wouldn't believe us. Or if they did- they'd lie and say they didn't
just so they could keep their money.

Please do not put those words in my voicing.

I did not take offense at any of these coments.

Merely point out why some of them should be taken with a grain of salt.

You have stated the no one here is an expert but the people you are
quoting are experts.

Some perhaps but...

In what way is a Philospher a qualified expert on destruction of
buildings? In what way is an economist an expert on aircraft flight,
Military action or intelligance operations?

Please just answer this,

Do you have a problem with Col. Bowman?

You had a problem with Peter lance, do you also have a problem with
Major General Alber Stubblebine?

Take your time and research these guys and get back to us. I really want
to know.



_____________________________________________



Major General Albert Stubblebine, U.S. Army (ret) – Former Commanding
General of U.S. Army Intelligence and Security Command, 1981 - 1984.
Also commanded the U.S. Army’s Electronic Research and Development
Command and the U.S. Army’s Intelligence School and Center. Former head
of Imagery Interpretation for Scientific and Technical Intelligence.
32-year Army career.

Video 7/11/06: "One of my experiences in the Army was being in charge of
the Army’s Imagery Interpretation for Scientific and Technical
Intelligence during the Cold War. I measured pieces of Soviet equipment
from photographs. It was my job. I look at the hole in the Pentagon and
I look at the size of an airplane that was supposed to have hit the
Pentagon. And I said, ‘The plane does not fit in that hole’. So what did
hit the Pentagon? What hit it? Where is it? What's going on?"
http://www.und


Editor's note: For more information on the impact at the Pentagon, see
Colonel Nelson, Lt. Col. Kwiatkowski, Major Rokke, Capt. Wittenberg, and
Steve DeChiaro.


Bio: http://www.canadiansub.com/Board