God didnt have anything to do with that situation and Lot was called righteous according to the values of his time. A person canot live by those values now or they would face serious social sanctions (like prison time). Values change over time. Values have changed since the story was even written down.

I'm sure you mean invented, not written down

Lot was called both "just" and "righteous" by god and he was spared. God also made the decision to destroy Sodom and Gomorrah though no real clear explanation was ever given as to why he did this or what their crimes were.

So why attempt to justify god's actions now if as you say, he would have been convicted and sent to prison for mass murder? That would have been in addition to sanctioning Lot's actions as it related to his family.

God is not subject to human laws (obviously). And Lot was just and righteous according to the value system of his time. According to the story ,God destroyed the cities for practicing institutionalized homosexuality (it was sort of their religion). Lot was honorable in that he followed the practice of hospitality which was paramount in the ancient world.

Well obviously. Otherwise he would have been sent to prison.So you are expecting me just to allow god to make these decisions and agree that he is just, righteous and omniscient. I dont think so. You can call me Funch all you want. What you are saying is, "Its god, just go along with it." That has been the only argument thus far presented by the Christians and it caused me to give great pause and question their moral fiber as humans in all honesty.



No. He was called "just" and "righteous" by god.



Please find where it states that in the story itself. If that were the case, couldn't god have killed just the men, and not every man, woman, child and infant? What did the rest of them do wrong to warrant burning hot sulfur to be reigned down on them from the sky?



I am well aware of this custom in Middle Eastern culture because it is still in practice today BUT I dont think it would mean sacrifice your own children in the face of complete strangers. Even if it did, by modern standards, that is abhorrent and no god would praise a man for such cruelty and wanton abandon of his own family.






.

I still think that their sin was not their sexuality, but rather the intention to rape strangers. And for that, to destroy the whole city, punishment was unjust and overdone, period.

Thats putting the cart before the horse isnt it? Why were the messengers there?The decision had already been made.

I cant find what the sins of Sodom were exactly. This is the closest I could come.

Ezekiel 16:49

This was the iniquity of thy sister Sodom, pride, fulness of bread, and abundance of idleness ... neither did she strengthen the hand of the poor and needy.

So they were lazy and would not help the needy. They were not charitable people.

The story was written by humans but since God decided to spare Lot and some of his family then obviously God felt that he was righteous. Lot was righteous in that he showed honor (according to the values of his time) to his guests by protecting them from the mob by offering his own daughters. Anything else would have been dishonorable(according to the values of his time.) Although we in modern times do not understand or agree with this decision, it shows that Lot was a man of integrity.Even then it must have been a tough thing to do but Lot had invited the messengers into his home and he was honor bound to protect them at all cost.

Krimsa the names of the cities are the names of homosexuality.This has always been the accepted history in the Middle east as to why these cities were destroyed.

Just because the term "sodomite" was taken several 100s of years after the fact by people who strongly desired to condemn homosexuals does not necessarily mean that was the sin. It might have been one of the sins although I cant find anything to indicate this. This was all I could locate in Ezekiel.

Well, the entire homosexuality thing is a little bit of a different tangent that I would rather not get into for fear of hurting some of my friends feelings. I cant speak for God or why HE and most other "gods"of other religions feel the way they do about homosexuality. I will leave that to someone braver and more knowledgable than me to explain. But it has always been accepted history in that region of the world as to why those cities were destroyed.

This has been taught in such a way that it way distorts the scriptures.
For 1

1 Lot and his family lived and worked thier.

2 They were well known to everyone. Why do you think such attention was brought thier way?

3.. The customs throughout the Bible is to treat your nieghbor as yourself.

4.. lot recongonized who these strangers were. He ran to them to wash thier feet.. A custom of humility and graciousness to your friends for thier friendship.

5. This custom of feet washing came on to the NT it was lost or just something the Priesthood refused to teach. Abraham you can read did exactly the same thing.


6 When someone enters your household as guest you are responciple for your guests safety.

just as the law of a railing around your roof where you went to cool off. A law we see today with fencing or something around a deck or swimming pool.

7 Lot was no dummie. do you really think that lot thought his daughters were in danger?

these 2 daughters had also learned bad customs from the people as we see the seed of Moab and Edom.

lot was trying to appease the people. To make them go away. The scriptures also say you are to protect your family at all cost. The man/father to give his life if need be.

Lot is called Rightous in the NT.. Giving up your daughters in the way people see this is not Righteousness.

* what really was the sin of Sodom and Gommorrah?

Was outrages sex acts really the major concern?

I do not believe you will see the NT hold that therory up.

many times it speaks of it will be worse for this place than Sodom and Gommorrah. yet it is not in a sexual context.

what you will find it is always Hospitality. Love for your nieghbor.

These 2 cities were doing what every man imagined in his own eyes.

Yahweh's law was useless to them.

just as it is to people today.

hence this generation is refered to as Sodom and Gommorrah not because of what gays are out thier or perverts.

It is because the Love of Yahweh is not in them and they refuse the LAW of A FRIEND.

What did yahshua say and show us a friend is?

One who would give his life for you. That is a true friend. That is what Yahweh demands of Brotherly love.

This is why Sodom and Gommorah was destroyed because it had started spreading if you will read to all the towns around them.

No different than what is being spread through out the World today.

Everyman for himself. Doing what is right in his own eyes.

this will bring Hot Coals upon anyones heads that does and believes and thinks this.

So our whole state of schooling has a curse on it.

Our state of right rulings fair judgement in or courts have a curse on it.

That is why we are told to leave them alone because nothing we can do can change a man who is PROUD of his unrighteous actions.

The curse of Hot Coals upon your head.

The question is? Are u under that curse.. Blessings...Miles

I agree its really neither here nor there and is an issue that will just incite emotion and anger. Lets just stick to the problem at hand which is whether or not Lot was a "just" and "righteous" man after he offered his two virgins to the mob and I say nay. I have yet to hear a convincing argument otherwise. It all sounds like a lot of excuse making for god.

Because he was a man of integrity. He made a tough decision in order to protect his guests according to the law of hospitality.He was honorbound to do so at all costAs we have already discussed, the law of hospitality was paramount. One of the most important values in the ancient world (and still is in some places).

Miles said:



Agreed.

I would guess that in the Middle East, when you bring a stranger into your home, they become a guest and you are offering to protect them while they are there. They come under your protection in a sense. I have not looked up the root of the custom online but that is my presumption.

It seems very unlikely to me that in order to protect that guest(s) that it would be implied or expected of you to sacrifice your own children or wife. That is wrong.

A Cuneiform clay tablet which for over 150 years defied attempts at interpretation has now been revealed to describe an asteroid impact which in 3123 BC hit Köfels, Austria, leaving in its wake a trail of destruction which may acccount for the biblical tale of Sodom and Gomorrah.



The "Planisphere" tablet (see pic) - inscribed around 700 BC - was unearthed by Henry Layard in the remains of the library of the Assyrian royal palace at Nineveh, close to modern-day Mosul, Iraq. It's a copy of the night diary of a Sumerian astronomer containing drawings of constellations and "known constellation names", but it required modern computer tech to finally unravel its exact meaning.

Alan Bond, Managing Director of Reaction Engines Ltd and Mark Hempsell, Senior Lecturer in Astronautics at Bristol University, subjected the Planisphere to a programme which "can simulate trajectories and reconstruct the night sky thousands of years ago". They discovered that it described "events in the sky before dawn on the 29 June 3123 BC", with half of it noting "planet positions and cloud cover, the same as any other night".

The other half, however, records an object "large enough for its shape to be noted even though it is still in space" and tracks its trajectory relative to the stars, which "to an error better than one degree is consistent with an impact at Köfels".

That a large body had impacted at Köfels had long been suspected, the evidence being a giant landslide 500m thick and five kilometres in diameter. The site had no impact crater to back the theory, but the researchers now believe they have a plausible explanation for that.

The Bristol Uni press release explains: "The observation suggests the asteroid is over a kilometre in diameter and the original orbit about the Sun was an Aten type, a class of asteroid that orbit close to the earth, that is resonant with the Earth’s orbit. This trajectory explains why there is no crater at Köfels.

"The in coming angle was very low (six degrees) and means the asteroid clipped a mountain called Gamskogel above the town of Längenfeld, 11 kilometres from Köfels, and this caused the asteroid to explode before it reached its final impact point.

"As it travelled down the valley it became a fireball, around five kilometres in diameter (the size of the landslide). When it hit Köfels it created enormous pressures that pulverised the rock and caused the landslide but because it was no longer a solid object it did not create a classic impact crater."

Mark Hempsell, hinting at the possible fate of Sodom and Gomorrah, adds: “Another conclusion can be made from the trajectory. The back plume from the explosion (the mushroom cloud) would be bent over the Mediterranean Sea re-entering the atmosphere over the Levant, Sinai, and Northern Egypt.

“The ground heating though very short would be enough to ignite any flammable material - including human hair and clothes. It is probable more people died under the plume than in the Alps due to the impact blast.“

While the biblical fate of the legendary dens of vice (“Then the Lord rained down burning sulfur on Sodom and Gomorrah - from the Lord out of the heavens” - Genesis 19:24) sits nicely with the asteroid theory, it's never been categorically proven that they actually existed in their suspected location close to the Dead Sea.

Tales of fiery destruction raining from the skies are not, though, restricted to the Bible. Hempsall told the Times that "at least 20 ancient myths record devastation of the type and on the scale of the asteroid’s impact" - including the Ancient Greek myth of how Phaeton, son of Helios, lost control of his dad's chariot and plunged into the River Eridanus.

A translation of the Planisphere and the researchers' findings can be found in the book A Sumerian Observation of the Köfels' Impact Event. The tablet is object number K8538 in the British Museum collection. ®

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2008/03/31/kofels_asteroid/

Thats fascinating. It makes perfect sense. Its interesting that the Sumerians recorded it happening. Many of the stories in the bible were actually taken from the Sumerians when they were later conquered by the Akkadians who were a Semitic tribe. .

Very interesting, Atlantis. Boy, God goes to a lot of trouble to keep from having to do the dirty work himself. And it is dirty work, considering the number of innocents that must have been taken out, all in the name of 'morality'.


I actually have another question. This story of S & G, is one of only a handfull of places that is said to pertain to homosexuality.

If the whole of S & G were full of homosexuals, why would Lot offer these men 'woment'?

It may sound funny, paradoxical, but it's a question that never seems to be clearly answered.

P.S. - why do wish people a joyous Christmas and peace on earth, only one day a year?

No matter, I wish everyone joy and peace, today, and everyday.