Hellooooooooooo Sloooooooooooo


Every now and then I peek in

Ok, so here's four more facts:
Two accidental deaths, one death from an epileptic seizure and one death from an unspecified cause.

And for some unspecified reason, the C.O.S is responsible for all of them?

My point is that these types of reports are always hugely biased. The few facts given are always shockingly sensational, but the rest is just innuendo and conjecture. Really nothing more than rumor-mongering.

Here's one example: In reading the above report, one is lead to conclude that they all died in the Fort Harrison Hotel. But that is not true. In at least one case it is very skillfully worded so as to lead one to that conclusion, but that conclusion is false.

Ok so 5 deaths are just shruged off by you. I wonder if they were 5 members of your family if you could be so glib with the lose of life... So if you are scared of "bias" on the net and half truths well then here is a French Parlimentary Report for you.

This excerpt is from the French Parliamentary Report on Cults of 1995
-----------------------------------

The County Court of Dijon, in a judgement of January 9, 1987 (No 118-87),
condemned the assistant-director of the Narconon center of
Grangey-sur-Ource for lack of assistance to a person in danger. This
center, created by the Church of Scientology, proposes cures of
detoxication by applying the methods of Ron Hubbard, namely the
"purification rundown", based mainly on several hours of sauna per day,
"auditing" and a significant absorption of vitamins. In this case, the
victim was a long time epileptic and had been addressed to this
organization because she wished "to be released from the drugs". The
center, without preliminary medical examination, placed her in a room of
"weaning". However, the medical expertises showed that the death was due
to "a state of epileptic seizures due to the absence of sufficient
handling in its beginning and emergency treatment during the seizures."
The judgement does not leave any doubt about the responsibility of the
center:

"If Jocelyne Dorfmann had made the decision to reduce her medicamentous
consumption, then to stop it with the risk of compromising her health,
the defendants never warned her of the need for a medical examination for
her admission, which would have probably made it possible to contra-
indicate the cure of weaning; it is inconceivable that the victim could
be accepted without this examination and a serious interview in spite of
her declarations about her health and her epilepsy, whereas the
defendants admitted knowing that in the event of serious illness, the
medical handling was not to suffer any interruption;

"If at the time of the first crisis, the defendants could have been
mistaken on its exact nature, the repetition of the crises and their
increasing intensity were to evoke them an origin distinct from a state
of withdrawal which, according to medical experts, cannot be confused
with an epileptic state; They did not consider it useful to ask directly
the victim, while she was still conscious, if these crises could
correspond to the epileptic seizures to which she had referred or to call
upon the nearest doctor (...) "

--
Miguelito


http://www.whyaretheydead.net/others/Jocelyne_Dorfmann_34.html

Well he was not my X husband at the time. I was still married to him.

My point is that bells go off in reading these accounts aimed at Scientology simply because they sound a bit outrageous and they don't make any sense, they don't present a motive, they just sound like rumors. I don't engage in rumor and gossip and as a private investigator I have learned that there are always two sides to a story.

I would never take a story like this on faith as fact until I investigated it completely on both sides and looked for motive etc.

I find the facts of this one suspicious right off because unless a person has some serious disease I don't think they can loose 30 pounds in 17 days unless they were making her run on a tread mill eight to ten hours a day. It just made a bell ring. When this bell rings, it alerts me that this is propaganda and I take it with a grain of salt.

This kind of propaganda is designed to frustrate and enrage people against someone else.

If I cared, I would demand the facts. But I don't care about rumors.

In reading this account quickly it appears the motive was to effect a cure for a person. Not an evil motive at all.

If you knew how many people died at the hands of medical doctors and over doses of drugs and malpractice you would probably be shocked. Yet doctors live by the creed to protect each others and their own asses.

If the FDA and the medical community could, they would outlaw any alternative medicine or treatment to protect their own business. If there were no sick people and no drug addicts they would be out of business. They don't want nor do they have any sure cure for cancer and other so-called terminal diseases. They only have treatments and drugs.

So if you could compare medical disasters case by case, I think the medical community would probably loose.

QUOTE:
… it is not the individual that is in question here. Rather it is the body of the organization,its actions and views that will test the quality of the religion.

I’m not sure how you would evaluate the “actions and views” of an organization other than through the “actions and views” of the individual members.

Although I guess you could evaluate the “views” part based solely on the writings and ignore the expressed views of the members.

In which case, the writings that I have read seem to indicate a highly workable and ethical approach to the betterment of man.

I should probably clarify a little better. The deeds of of body of the church or its members can affect how the preception of the religion is developed. So rather it is the actions of the body of the church that result in how the religion is precieved by those outside of it. It's books and virtues may be ideal but the actions of the members of the body of the religion may speak differently of those virtues and beliefs. I believe one can take donations for sharing said beliefs,knowledge, and books. All knowledge should be free and charging someone for lack of knowledge and trying to justify it by saying well it costs me something for you to learn it so i need to charge you something. That is like saying a mother should charge her infant before she teaches them to potty train, speak, or eat. Knowledge belongs to all not to just some is all i am saying.

Well I have heard that Christians should not be judged by the history of the bloody Catholic church with all its crusades and wars and burning of witches etc. .. and I have heard that the actions of one denomination should not reflect on other denominations, and that the actions of one Christian church should not be held as a sample of what all Christians are like.

I evaluate Christianity by its roots and by the past actions of the Church. "Convert or die," does not seem Godly to me. But for the inhabitants of some lands, that offer was not even made... people were simply slaughtered.

Yeah maybe one story could be hyped but all of these make a patern. How about if it was children...

St. Petersburg Times (Nov. 1991): "I still have nightmares" by Curtis Kruger
The Scientology school never assigned homework, she said. "It was just understood that when we left school, we left it and went to work." She described a typical schedule:

Sunday: From 8 in the morning until 10:30 at night.

Monday through Friday: From after school until 10:30 p.m.

Saturday: Noon to 10:30 p.m. one week, off the next.

That works out to about 50 hours of work a week, during school. In the summer, Beth said she worked "fun time." Other children worked similar hours, she said. "I never got a chance to just sit around."

Note: Beth was 11 year-old...

Yolanda Howell (1994): Child Abuse
Although I had said I was done with scientology, I was told I could never see my children again unless I came up with the money for auditing and my freeloaders debt. I was also told that I would be declared (Suppressive) if I told anyone what they had done with my children. The Acting ED said that he intended to lie and say I had blown the Sea Org so no one would listen to me, anyway. They paid no attention to the harm they were doing to my children by abruptly depriving them of their mother. I had been their major supporting parent since their births.

Affidavit of Anne Rosenblum (pre 1995)
If they had children, RPFers were allowed to see them during the meal time, plus one hour a week, if their stats were up.

Bent Corydon (1987): "Messiah or Madman?"
The four-year-old boy could no longer cry. He had been nearly 4 hours in the chain locker of the flagship Apollo and his entire body was aching from his efforts to chip off rust. His knees and hands were raw with cuts and bruises. His voice was raspy from crying, and he was desperately afraid. He was constantly making resolutions to never, never again eat the Commodore's telexes — the most recent crime of which he had been accused.

Affidavit of Stacy Brooks Young (22 March 1994)
23. [...] Children are being kept at camps, away from their parents for weeks at a time. Parents who ask to see their children more than this are frowned upon; children are considered "distractions" to production. Mr. Jentzsch knows this: he and his wife Karen were coerced by David Miscavige into being divorced because Karen wanted Heber to spend more time with their son, Alexander. Miscavige viewed Alexander as a distraction to Heber's production.



http://www.xenu-directory.net/practices/children1.html

If all else fails, bring on the poor innocent children.

If you want to find monsters, you will find them in every walk of life and in every religion or cult.

Monsters exist. But each case has to be taken on its own merit. If you found out that a percentage of Catholic Priests were abusing children do you think that is going to bring down the entire Church? That is not going to happen.

If a few terrorists were Arabs or Muslims, does that mean they should all be destroyed?

This is mob thinking no matter how you look at it.

Now a personal question. Has the church of Scientology done any personal harm to you? Do you know anyone personally who has been harmed, harassed or abused by this organization? if so, you should pursue legal remedies, if not, why do you campaign to spread propaganda against them?

the religions you talk about are thousands of years old. They have a huge history and following that you can drag out bad parts.

Scientology was only created in the 1950's. And they have all these stories in just this little time. This is there policy. This is there philosophy. this is why they are dangerous to everyone. This is not the exception this is the rule. I have only just put up a few stories here. There are so many because this this cult is out to ruin people financially and kill people through stupidity or mallace it doesn't matter it still has the same result. Dead Mothers, Fathers, Sisters, Brothers, and Children.



Not just some religion.

Well thanks for the warning, but I have no plans to join any religion or cult anyway.

Now, back to my questions.

Has the church of Scientology done any personal harm to you?

Do you know anyone personally who has been harmed, harassed or abused by this organization?

I was against the Genocide in Rwanda even though I didn't know a soul there, I was against the Japanese Rape of Nanking and it happened before I was ever born. We all have a responsibility to speak out against dangerous and powerful people/organizations. Maybe if we do it with words loud enough and early enough it will never get to the actual atrocity.



If there is just one man enslaved then we are all enslaved

If just ONE Child is being abused then we all hold the responsibility to do something

While being "against" things may seem to be a noble cause it gives energy to the battle on the negative side. The more resistance you incite against the opposition, the more resistance you will get in return as hate begets hate and opposition begets resistance.

There is a better way that begins with your own state of consciousness. Realize freedom. Practice freedom of thought and action where you can.

There are many things in this world to be against and more and more arise every day. You can decide to dedicate your life to fight for any good cause if that is your desire and purpose, but sometimes in doing so you loose yourself and your own true purpose.

Apparently you do not have any personal experience of harm being done to you or any close friends by the Church of Scientology. When and if this happens then I will be very interested in hearing about it.

I'm sure there is some truth in all of these claims, I am not saying they are not true, but they are someone's personal problem that they played a part in attracting by giving someone else control over their lives.

If you can achieve self mastery, then maybe you will better serve the world and save innocents.

P.S.

If The Church of Scientology has taken a defensive position it probably was attacked by the status quo.

The Zionst Jews of Israel justify their terrorist tactics blaming persecution and the holocaust. That is their greatest strength, and their best excuse to be aggressors, and that is why they attract suicide bombers.

Oh Good grief Charlie Brown......
so your saying standing up against genocide, hate crimes, murder, rape, war, and general injustice incites more of it?!?!? So suppose when i see someone getting mugged on the the street, according to you the scientologist thing to do is to keep on walking or just stare....
Anybody who speaks of self-mastery should have the common sense to know that doesn't mean ignore everything else in the world. Those who master themselves help others and stay invovled in their community and world. If someone does something wrong, they call them out on it and they question things. Just becuase we are not personally tied to events and actions of others does not mean we should ignore them. You speak of what i call the greatest sin a person can commit. That sin is Apathy. Mark my words, your indifference towards others will lead to your own undoing. You do yourself and scientology a diservice by speaking like that.

If you are involved in that kind of stuff directly and it is personal to you, then you should do what you think is right. But to jump on someone's bandwagon fighting a cause you know very little about directly or personally and have nothing to do with would be placing your faith intirely in the messenger and the accuracy of the information, which for all you know could be propaganda spun for the purpose of building an army for war.




I am not a member of Scientology so I would not know what their policy would be.

But the example above is a personal experience and something that you are personally a witness too. You should always do what you think is right when faced with a situation like that.




No it doesn't. But a person who can not help himself cannot save the world or anyone else.




Those who master themselves can help others. But helping others is not self mastery. Each and every person can help another person. I am only saying that you should choose your causes carefully.



You seek to gain converts to your cause of fighting all injustice and saving the world. If you can make a difference, then you should always do what you can and do what you think is right.

(Some people claim to hate war, yet they still pay taxes and by doing so they contribute to the war machine. Others believe their money is going to our defense.)



I do not speak for Scientology I speak for myself. I am not indifferent towards others. I have great compassion and a great sadness for them and for their situation which is caused by war, greed and conquest and lack of compassion of the leaders who we place in authority over us and pay taxes to support.

No disagreement there. Just as with any religious, philosophical, political, moral, ethical stance, there are hypocrites. However, I would argue that it is the mass-media’s sensationalist reporting of anomalous incidents that results in how the religion is perceived – not the actual “actions of the body of the membership.”

Yes, I hear what you’re saying. What I’m saying is that is not a practical stance. By that logic, colleges and universities should also be free – both tuition and books. And trade schools should be free, as well as any kind of training seminar. Not to mention any non-fiction book of any kind.

And what about the people who search out and discover facts and knowledge? Apparently they shouldn’t be compensated for their work either, so anyone contributing to the any type of research that discovers or gathers knowledge, would have to work for free.

This is not at all practical.

I think knowledge should belong to those who go out and get it. It should belong to those who make the effort to do what is necessary to obtain it. And those who actually worked at getting it should not be forced into giving it away to others who put forth no effort on their own to obtain it.

Ok, since you keep bringing up the issue that there are all these dead people all over the place, how about if we make a comparison. Not with a "thousand year history", but in just the past 60 years since the founding of Scientology.

You apparently have done a bit of research on Scientology. Now let's see if you can do an equal amount of research into another group.

Go find out how many deaths there have been in mental institutions in the time period from 1950 to today, and compare that with how many deaths there have been in Scientology institutions in the same time period.

Then get back to me.

Well said, keep up the good fight rabbit! There are those here that will use reason in every case, yet still see the patterns and not let our personal bias effect our judgment of these actions, thank you for being one of those people rabbit.

I commend you on your command of rhetoric. That is a very rousing and evocative speech. And I also commend you on your willingness to stick to your guns and fight for a cause you believe in.

I just happen to think that there are other groups that are far bigger, far more insidious and far more dangerous to the freedom of man. And I prefer to put my energy into opposing those groups, instead of fighting against the smoke screens and red herrings they throw out.

I have been discussing the accepting of self responsibility with people on this forum for quite a while now, and almost all of the people I have talked to don't even want to accept responsibility for their own problems and lives let along accept any responsibility for one man enslaved or one child abused who they don't even know.

If I can't get people to accept responsibility for just their own personal reality, how to you propose to get people to accept responsibility for the problems of the world that you mention here?

It is easy to blame the ills of the world on the evil doers and the perpetrators. But if you take a look at this drama you will find three rolls that are constantly being played.

1.) - The evil doer or perpetrator.
2.) - The victim
3.) - The hero or savior

In writing a story, you generally need these three characters in it somewhere.

And of course there are the observers. They are the audience.
They just sit and watch and make comments. Some of them might take sides and join in the action.

Some people are simply recruiters to the cause or inciters of riots.

So which roll are you assuming?

After all, it is just a game. I know, I know, the players hate that some of us call it a game. But that is what it operates like.