Sorry.

I'm still brainstorming to myself actaully.

I just have a hard time accepting that we attract events that occur at random. In fact, we dont.

grant me the serenity
to accept the things I cannot change;
courage to change the things I can;
and wisdom to know the difference.

I never suggested that it's easy to accept. Owl be the first to agree that it is extremely problematic from a practical point of view.

Potentially even provably incorrect.

Atheism is the only truely non-problematic philosophy.

Well, I can say that either, because even atheism has the problem how any kind of order could have just happened by pure accident. Especially the kind of order that would be required for conscious being to evole.

Although many atheists will argue that entropy explains this.

Being a physicist I can't argue with that. It truly does.

Just the same I still have intuitive problem accepting pure atheism. Not that I'm uncomfortable with it. It's just that I have a problem with anything at all existing purely by 'accident'.

But then again, even if spirit exist I suppose that would have had to have been an accident too.

I mean, let's face it, even the existence of a divine spiritual essence doesn't answer the question where spirit came from (or could exist even in a timeless realm).

The mere fact that anything exists at all is beyond logic. So whatever exists is clearly not logical on any level.

I'm totally satisfied that the biblical picture is necessarily false because that picture has shot itself in its own feet in so may ways that it no longer has any feet to stand on.

When it comes to random events, we can only assume that spirit overrides them. Unless we want to just accept atheism.

I'm just trying to figure out a way to make spirituality possible.

Clearly there are things that we cannot control. But then again, we might have more control than we realize.

I mean you could choose to live your life in a padded protected room. The mere fact that you chose to particpate in the world means that you are willing to risk some degree of randomness.

The choice to take your chances with randomness was a choice that you made.

Jeanniebean's argument is that you made the choice to play the "Earth Game" before you ever got here.

I guess we just don't really have an intuitive feel for reincarnation.

But then again, if we have all agreed to the risks of randomness, then there's no need to claim that we have individually attracted what happens to us.

All that would be required is that we agreed to the risks of randomness before playing the game.

So maybe that's it.

There's no need to claim that everyone attracts everything to them.

All we need to assume is that everyone agreed to the risks of randomness before they got here, and that they knew what those risks were.

So I suppose you're right. We don't necessarily need to attract everything that happens to use in order to justify divinity. All we need is reincarnation, and that justifies it right there.

There is that line from that comedy "Airplane" when the guy says "Hey, they bought their tickets, they got on the plane, they knew what they were getting into. I say, let em crash."

He probably believed in the philosophy that we attract everything to us.

I love that movie!

Yeah, that's the problem with that philosophy.

When someone enslaves you they just say, "Hey you knew what you were getting into when you came into this world, tough luck sucker!"


Or they's say, "Well if I was able to enslaved you, you must have attracted it!"

The problem is that you could do anything to anyone and just say, "Hey, you attracted it!".


That clearly going to be a very problematic philosophy.

Better off steering clear of that one.

Ok, owl just stick with the 'accepted risk' philosophy.

That seems to justify divinity without forcing the person to actually attract everything that happens to them.

You're pretty clever Krimsa.

I guess it's really just the simple idea of reincarnation and accepted risk that ultimately justifies divinity.

I dont think I accepted anything really. I was born. I had nothing to do with that. Just like any other creature, we enter this world. I dont believe in any of this "accepting anything." I take responsibility for my own existence yet I didnt sign any waivers in order to be here.

I'm so glad! (I'm glad I reported you to the mingle cops.) This is like a roach motel. Roaches go in... but they don't come out.

You should do what I do. Stand in front of the southern baptist Church with a large sign that says

"It's a Trap! Don't go in!
(and don't go into the light when you die, that's also a trap!)

There are those (not wiccans) who do practice sorcery and dark magic and who worship the dark side. These practices are deeply hidden, and some of them hide in plain sight and work within the highest ranking church officials pretending to be working for good and not for evil. They still, to this day, practice human sacrifice of children to their dark lords.

These horrors are whispered by some and feared by others and so when they hear the term "witch" or "magic" they associate it with the real evil that does go on in this world.

Well, the whole idea with spirituality is a belief that our true essence is spirit.

Christians, and all the Mediterranean mythologies, assume that we are created from scratch at birth. But then live on after we die. Even those who go to hell would have to live on after they die, othewise hell wouldn't make any sense. In fact, that's a problem with the biblical picture too because it talks about only being eligible for eternal life if you accept Jesus. Well if you don't except Jesus then you could hardly go to hell for eternity. So that's just one more absurdity.

But the Eastern philosophies believe in reincarnation. (that we are indeed the eternal spirit)

I tend to feel that if there is any truth to spirit at all, then it's probably two-way. Meaning that we existed as spirit before we were born just as much as we will continue to exist after we die.

Of course, with atheism the whole spirit thing is meaningless. But then what of 'responsiblity', wouldn't that also be a fairly meaningless concept in atheism as well.

I mean how can a freak accident be repsonsible for anything?

And Adolph Hitler, a Roman Catholic is responsible for the death of 11 million humans. I am asking for some accountability here.

Those 11 million people must have found Adolph Hitler to be attractive.

He did have that little mustache. He was very "Chaplin like" He was an artist also. If he has just gotten into architectural design school or whatever he wanted to pursue, then maybe that wouldn't have happened. Or he might have killed a bunch art students instead. If he was attractive and all.

I'm listening to some really good music today.

I bought some meditation CDs.

One is called "Shamanic dreams" and the other one is called "Sanctuary: Music from a Zen Garden".

I think I'd like to get into composing meditation music. It's nice and peaceful.

Ive only heard some of those "sounds of nature" Ya know the ones where it will be a babbling brook or birds singing in the morning. My favorite was the thunderstorm though. Thats very soothing.

I have a bunch of those too. I use the babbling brook a lot. I also have some of the jungle and underwater ocean sounds too.

I'm really looking for some really good shamanic drumming CDs though. I haven't been able to find what I'm really seeking yet.

I'm hoping to make up one using my bongos and cello with maybe some flute in there too.

These ones I have rigth now have those oriental string instruments that twang like a banjo. I have a banjo and I've actaully don't some meditation music with it already.

I didn't record it though. I just did it live.

You play the flute also? You must have quite the embouchure. What is the underwater sounds like? Bubbles? Whales? I did have the "sounds of the Humpback" which was really cool. Very lonely and sad in some parts and then funny also. Is the jungle like birds and monkeys and cheetahs and all that? That would be cool. I had another that was American Indian drumming and that singing/chanting in their native tongue they do which is very hypnotic. The drumming puts me to sleep.

The underwater sounds are whales. That CD also has piano pieces played over it. Like Debussy's Clair de Lune. It's pretty good.

The Jungle has mostly birds and anphibians and rain. No human sounds or music. Just pure nature.

I like American Indian drumming and chanting too but I don't have any of those. I've heard excerpts is all.

I like African drumming too but I haven't been able to find a CD of African drumming that I really like. A lot of modern African music sound too western for me. I like the more primitive stuff.

I don't 'play' anything in the conventional sense.

I just own a bunch of instruments and I make noise on them.