I am assuming that you are relating Quantum entanglement to the human energy fields you mentioned in regards to Valerie Hunts work, but again you have not said how these human energy fields make use of quantum entanglement to do something, or what that something might be . . .

I have read ALLLLLLL about Neils Bohr and every other famous physicist, you are indeed spending alot of time talking about that, which for the benefit of everyone else that's great, to answer my question it has done nothing.


Once again I will ask the question, how does energy fields use quantum entanglement to produce an effect?

I don't know HOW.

Science has not yet even figured out HOW people even think and dream. (IF you accept the premise of a human energy field that houses "the mind" then you can speculate what I am suggesting.)

I addressed your question about why I made the statement (or how I got the impression) that QM suggests that things are "connected" in several different ways from different people, Bohr being one of them.

I can only speculate. If you are interested in my ideas I would be happy to tell you, but apparently you only want scientific references and 'facts.' I am not a scientist, so I can't answer that question except in the form of speculation.

You have not answered my question. So when in this discussion have I ever referred to anything as being "mystical?"

Mystical implies "mystery." (And it is a mystery. If you have not accepted that yet then lets hear your answers.)

But I get a kick out of scientific minded people who seem to have a phobia for anything "spiritual" or "mystical," as if these aspects do not exist or have never been considered.

Everybody wants an easy "provable" answer that makes sense to them within their own limited human logic. Ain't gonna happen.

jb

JB I am merely asking what you read in Valerie Hunts book that WAS scientific, you said she had done research, had findings ect, that this was a part of your belief and helped you believe. You are taking an approach like I am being critical I have not seen anything for which to be critical of . . . only statements with no conclusions, I am asking a very extremely simple question, I am not asking how it works, I am asking what effect the energy field has on its environment if any, and where QM comes into play.

If you cannot articulate that . . . well . . . . . then why believe it? Other then having someone say becuase of these features of QM this is true . . . . why would it be true if there is no effect caused, no thing is being effected, so what is there?

I want to know what your energy fields do. I want to know why QM has anything to do with that effect. Simple. You should be able to answer this question in a single paragraph.

sippin coffee as he reads the mornings topics
<-- would comment if not for being lost

Bushi,

I'm not a scientist - but what concerns me is not quantum theories problems but that of what i understand of Entropy?

According to what I've read, entropy shows that when complex things are left alone or not acted upon they would/will return to there original state of simplicity, or most basic form.

Does this not then contradict even the theory of evolution?

In other words, complex things need "Maintenance" in order to keep their complexity, so, since this can be seen to be readily true, who/what maintains all of the known complex things then?

WE - who are part of what supposedly arose out of this pre-mordial non life? How can that which is a part of the theoretical process of evolution [be it here or in the universe], also be that which maintained or maintains both itself and every other life form if there is not a creative force of some kind behind all of this?

We now have new theories of the M-universe [Multi-universe] made up of possible millions of bubble like universes floating around bumping into each other and splitting off and creating even more, and also 11 dimension theory[though if 11 why not 11 million?] to theorize also - but no matter how many or how large or small - it does not answer the question of what originally brought this about - and it certainly does not answer [for me] what is maintaining all of this infinite goings on - so to say. any thoughts on this??

That was your question. Pardon me, but it does look like you were asking how.

My answer is I don't know HOW.



Since you are looking for purely scientific answers I can't help you with that.



I don't need to be able to articulate something to believe it or to draw a personal conclusion.

I except the premise that there exists a human energy field that functions as or contains the mind. I referred to a couple of other people who have come to the same conclusion.- (There are many more)




Why would you automatically assume that there is no effect caused or no thing being effected?



I will tell you what I think is some of what they do, but don't ask me for scientific proof.

They organize, process and exchange information.

jb

Non-Scientists inspired to think outside the box and apply what they do know to current scientific findings (to the best of their ability) may bring up new ideas and questions that could possibly be picked up and persued by interested scientists. These scientists, who have the knowledge and vocabulary to articulate possibilities, can choose to either pursue the idea or not. To demand a non-scientist articulate their idea within the the framework of a scientist's vocabulary might suggest one is focusing more on the person's lack of scientific understanding and vocabulary.

Lack of full understanding and vocabulary does not prove lack of validity to the idea.

Personal experience has had a great deal of influence on me and what I believe. I do not place my faith on scientists, to determine (decide) what I will believe, although I look at what is known by science to see how it fits with my experience and understanding.

Examples of how my personal energy field, (which I call a unified field) works can be provided (in a non-scientific example) where it relates to my personal experiences.

Here is one.

The energy field "knows" things that you may not know consciously. (Whether you want to call that the "subconscious" is up to you.)

It reacts instantly and it does not seem to be limited by the constraints of time.

The experience: I was on the highway about to make a bad decision and make a left turn which would have kill both myself and my baby brother. We were not wearing seat belts, but even if we had been, the accident would have killed us both.

Something outside of my normal senses knew more than I did about the situation. I was given a flash of visions showing the accident and it was clear that we would not survive it. I received this information about ten times in the form of a holographic vision in which I was killed. I even argued with the information saying "I looked in the rear view mirror, and there was nothing there!" The response I got from this energy field was clearly myself in my own voice saying, "I know, but what would it hurt for you to look over your shoulder?"

I made an agreement (with myself?) that I would look over my shoulder and I was released from the vision. All of this took place in a span of a tiny fraction of a second compared to the normal passage of time in this reality.

I looked over my shoulder, and the second it took to do that saved my life. A truck which had been in my blind spot at the instant I had looked in the rear view mirror zoomed past going what seemed to be very fast.

That is an example of how my personal energy field works for me.

Believe it or not.

jb

Kewl

Just being supportive.You really bring a unique point of view to these threads JB.I consider you to be one of the MVPs of the religion threads.

To deduce something you MUST present a thing, then try to determine how it works. (the onus is not on you, but your sources to do this . . after all I am not a physicist yet, and have not written a single paper, however I have studied and understand what has been presented to me so far)

In QM, they had a thing, it was a strange behavior of light, and electrons.

You have nothing from what I can tell. If you read Valarie's book and came away with the idea that she had something . . . then all I am asking is that you go back to that source and present the info she had . . . (this is not rocket science, I get the feeling you do not want to present this info . . . )

So you are presenting a cause without an effect . . . .

What purpose does it serve to propose a cause without an effect or an observation of an effect?

I really find it curious that the reaction is that I am some how asking too much with these questions.

If would be no different if I said the human mind was located in the magnetic fields created electrons in atoms. Just about anyone would wonder how I came to that conclusion, what I saw/found that made me think that and if there was a way to test it before accepting it as true . . . .


AND this IS the science and philosophy forum BTW.
_________________________

Finally you have presented an effect! YAY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Something we can talk about finally.

So this experience you had, its impossible for it to be caused by anything else? That it was impossible to have known within the classic sense of perception this information . . . and knowing that the truck was really back there lead you to believe this field exists?

_________________

Tribo I would like to try to answer your questions to the best of my ability and not say something incorrect so I will need to take more time to formulate my answers.

Basically Ill be back!

You and Tribo are cool too Bushido. I like your scientific approach to topics. I would engage in discussion with you in the threads more but Im more of an "arts" guy than a "science" guy.History/Comparitive religion/sociology is more my area of knowledge.Im pretty weak in the sciences.

]
I actually was also, believe it or not I went to college first for theater acting (2 years) then ripped a disc in my back and was layed up for a few years with nothing to do but read.

It is?

_________________________________________________


I admit that my interjection (which I'm sure seems from left field) was in reaction to your posts of this morning that did seem a trifle condescending.

Sorry Bushi...

This thread according to my computer is still in the "general religion" forum. It has not been moved to the Science and Philosophy forum, although it probably should be.

(BTW Valarie's findings were just something I ran across, neither she or her book influenced me one way or another. I just found her experiments interesting and they seemed to make sense to me and my own experience.)



Well I have thought of many things that a person might normally attribute it to. A guardian angel, a sixth sense,
ESP, my higher self, God, it just was not my time to die, and even to the rest of my brain --that we say we don't use.

But even if you could find another cause, it does not explain seeing a vision ten times in the span of a micro second that showed me a holographic movie of myself getting creamed by a fast moving truck, and it doesn't explain who I was talking to when I argued with myself about a stupid thing like whether or not I should spend a second of my life to look over my shoulder just to be sure.

So in reading things about the human energy field and how it responds to stimuli before the brain or the body, gives me a clue. Together with my belief in a universal mind, the power of the subconscious, the idea that the brain is not the mind, it all seems to fit.

The fact that it operated outside of the limits of time was also interesting. I have heard of this happening to other people during times of emergencies like an accident.

I remember a science fiction show about time travel had a guy who could do what he called "time stalling" where he could go to a place to think that was not effected by time as we experience it.

This was not the first experience I ever had with this phenomena. It happened to me when I was a child and I was falling off of some monkey bars. One inch before I hit the ground time seemed to stall and everything froze around me. I had a lot of time to "think" about how to land and not get injured. An inch from the ground is not much space to adjust a fall, so I don't know if the thinking I did about it did any good or not.

I do remember thinking I was trapped in time and I did wonder how I was going to get un-trapped and get "things" moving again.

It is a place where time as we experience it stops and I can think about something for what seems like a longer time during a micro second of time as we know it.

Note the question in bold.

At the time, I was just grateful SOMETHING warned me and saved my life. I did not know what it was. A Christian might give the credit to Jesus.

It is only recently that I have begun to put it together that the unified field around my body might contain my mind and that mind might know more than what my brain processes.

jb

Bushi:

Basically >>>I'll be back!<<<

Tribo:

ok "ARNOLD" Work on California's problems while your at it -

Seriously - look at Noebles work on this in his book - pages - 330-333.

sorry i can't put it here i lost all my books in the hurricane 2005.

Funny you should post this goddess, i was watching science channel last night on M-universes and parallel universes as well as other dimensions - the scientist were saying that as to other dimensions there could be multiple copies of you right next to you all the time though you can't see them - and as to universes dinosaurs walking through your house as you paint, very interesting if it comes on again i will let you know - it actually backed up a lot of what your saying- fermilab in Chicago is setting up now to prove that this can all take place atomic structures existing in multiple places all at once.

I certainly think there is more to our reality then we know.

I really enjoy looking at effects and exploring all of the possibilities for causes.

And I really do have a great imagination, I enjoy your take on this JB, I really do.

But to get anywhere with this we have to ask hard questions of ourselves and each other.

I dont know is an ok answer, I think maybe's are even better answers.

I tend to maybe it out till I get my best set of maybe's

Occums razor helps sort it by most probable.

I also know that it is frustrating for people when they believe something to have someone come at it from differing perspectives, but alas if only we could all experience these things in the same ways.

I have had similar experiences, but NOT the same experiences.

______________

It has been crazy busy at work today, so I have not had much time to respond properly, If I seemed short it was probably that. Tribo when I get home I will comment on entropy.

Entropy is a sticky subject, some physicist believe that other physicist make too much of it. The law itself is very specific, the interpretation of how the nature of that law effects all aspects of reality is taken to an extreme and is very general and many times says things that the law itself does not say.