1 2 7 8 9 10 11 13 15
Topic: Truth vs. Bull****
no photo
Tue 11/18/08 03:46 PM
I really don't see how QM suggests what you say, please explain.

JB, you said "quantum theory seems to suggest that they are connected."

I just want you to elaborate on that . . . explain to me what in QM suggests what, and how that is connected to your energy fields, and how those fields have an effect on anything.

You made a statement and I am asking you to elaborate.

no photo
Tue 11/18/08 04:55 PM
Edited by Jeanniebean on Tue 11/18/08 05:53 PM
Well, between Albert Einstein, Danish physicist Niels Bohr, Karl Pribram Ph.D, and David Bohm, Ph.D who all have their own ideas and reasearch, one just has to pick a theory and agree or disagree.

Bohr's conclusion was that particle's properties don't exist until they are observed.

Einstein found this particularly objectionable because when combined with another of quantum physic's findings it implies that subatomic particles were interconnected in a way Einstein simply didn't believe was possible.

In 1935 he and his colleagues published a now famous paper entitled "Can Quantum Mechanical Description of Physical Reality Be Considered Complete?" In it they explained why the existence of such twin particles proved that Bohr could not possibly be correct. (I won't go into the details here as I am sure you are familiar with the paper or you can read it yourself.)

Bohr remained unperturbed by Einstein's argument. He offered another explanation. If subatomic particles do not exist until they are observed, then one could no longer think of them as independent "things." Thus Einstein was basing his argument on an error when he viewed twin particles as separate. They were part of an indivisible system, and it was meaningless to think of them otherwise.

In time, most physicists sided with Bohr and became content that his interpretation was correct. One factor that contributed to Bohr's triumph was that quantum physics had proved so spectacularly successful in predicting phenomena.

Bohr's view that subatomic systems are indivisible has profound implications for the nature of reality. Ironically these implications were ignored, and once again the potential importance of interconnectedness was swept under the carpet.

Enter David Bohm Ph.D

See Next post






tribo's photo
Tue 11/18/08 05:06 PM

Well, between Albert Einstein, Danish physicist Niels Bohr, Karl Pribram Ph.D, and David Bohm, Ph.D who all have their own ideas and reasearch, one just has to pick a theory and agree or disagree.

Bohr's conclusion was that particle's properties don't exist until they are observed.

Einstein found this particularly objectionable because when combined with another of quantum physic's findings it implies that subatomic particles were interconnected in a way Einstein simply didn't believe was possible.

In 1935 he and his colleagues published a now famous paper entitled "Can Quantum Mechanical Description of Physical Reality Be Considered Complete?" In it they explained why the existence of such twin particles proved that Bohr could not possibly be correct. (I won't go into the details here as I am sure you are familiar with the paper or you can read it yourself.)

Bohr remained unperturbed by Einstein's argument. He offered another explanation. If subatomic particles do not exist until they are observed, then one could no longer think of them as independent "things." Thus Einstein was basing his argument on and error when he viewed twin particles as separate. They were part of an indivisible system, and it was meaningless to think of them otherwise.

In time, most physicists sided with Bohr and became content that his interpretation was correct. One factor that contributed to Bohr's triumph was that quantum physics had proved so spectacularly successful in predicting phenomena.

Bohr's view that subatomic systems are indivisible has profound implications for the nature of reality. Ironically these implications were ignored, and once again the potential importance of interconnectedness was swept under the carpet.

Enter David Bohm Ph.D

See Next post








Dammit dont keep me waiting in suspense you tease!!!!!!!!!!:angry:

no photo
Tue 11/18/08 05:31 PM
Edited by Jeanniebean on Tue 11/18/08 06:02 PM
David Bohm

During his early years as a physicist Bohm also accepted Bohr's position, but he remained puzzled by the lack of interest Bohr and his followers displayed toward interconnectedness. (Originally Bohr's argument was only meant to counter Einstein's claims and was not focused on interconnectedness.)

Bohm's work in plasmas lead him to an amazing discovery. A plasma is a gas containing a high density of electrons and positive ions, atoms that have a positive charge.

To his amazement he found that once they were in a plasma, electrons stopped behaving like individuals and started behaving as if they were part of a larger and interconnected whole. Although their individual movements appeared random, vast numbers of electrons were able to produce effects that were surprisingly well organized. Like some amoeboid creature, the plasma constantly regenerated itself and enclosed all impurities in a wall in the same way that a biological organism might encase a foreign substance in a cyst. So he frequently had the impression the electron sea was "alive."

In 1947 Bohm accepted an assistant professorship at Princeton University, an indication of how highly he was regarded, and there he extended his Berkeley research to the study of electrons in metals. Once again he found that the seemingly haphazard movement of individual electrons managed to produce highly organized overall effects. Like the plasmas he had studied at Berkley, these were no longer situations involving two particles, each behaving as if it knew what the other was doing, but entire oceans of particles, each behaving as if it knew what untold trillions of others were doing. Bohm called such collective movements of electrons plasmons, and their discovery established his reputation as a physicist.

But both his sense of the importance of interconnectedness as well as his growing dissatisfaction with several of the other prevailing views in physics caused Bohm to become increasingly troubled by Bohr's interpretation of quantum theory.

He decided to to improve his understanding by writing a text book. (Quantum Theory)

But he was still not comfortable with what quantum physic was saying and he sent copies of his book to both Bohr and Einstein to ask their opinions. He got no answer from Bohr but Einstein contacted him and said that since they were both at Princeton they should meet and discuss the book.

What turned into a six-month series of spirited conversations, Einstein enthusiastically told Bohm that he had never seen quantum theory presented so clearly. Nonetheless, he admitted he was still every bit as dissatisfied with the theory as was Bohm.

What bothered them was that it provided no real way of conceiving of the basic structure of the world.

Bohm decided that there had to be an alternative view.

Bohm decided that particles such as electrons do exist in the absence of observers. He also assumed that there was a deeper reality beneath Bohr's inviolable wall, a subquantum level that still awaited discovery by science.

Building on these premises he discovered that simply by proposing the existence of new kind of field on this subquantum level he was able to explain the finding of quantum physics as well as Bohr could.

Bohm called his proposed new field the quantum potential and theorized that, like gravity, it pervaded all of space. However, unlike gravitational fields, magnetic fields, and so on, its influence did NOT diminish with distance. Its effects were subtle, but it was equally powerful everywhere. Bohms published his alternative interpretation of quantum theory in 1952.

Reactions to his new approach was mainly negative. In short, Bohr's point of view had become so entrenched in physics that Bohms alternative was looked upon as little more than heresy.

But Bohm remained unswerving in his conviction that there was more to reality than Bohr's view allowed.

I am going to cut it short here, but Bohm's research ultimately lead him to the holographic model of reality.

jb

tribo's photo
Tue 11/18/08 05:56 PM
Edited by tribo on Tue 11/18/08 06:01 PM
Bohm called his proposed new field the quantum potential and theorized that, like gravity, it pervaded all of space. However, unlike gravitational fields, magnetic fields, and so on, its influence >>>>>>did<<<<<< diminish with distance. Its effects were subtle, but it was equally powerful everywhere. Bohms published his alternative interpretation of quantum theory in 1952.

was the above >>did<< a type-o ? should it be did not or didn't?

no photo
Tue 11/18/08 06:02 PM

Bohm called his proposed new field the quantum potential and theorized that, like gravity, it pervaded all of space. However, unlike gravitational fields, magnetic fields, and so on, its influence >>>>>>did<<<<<< diminish with distance. Its effects were subtle, but it was equally powerful everywhere. Bohms published his alternative interpretation of quantum theory in 1952.

was the above >>did<< a type-o ? should it be did not or didn't?



Thanks, I did leave out NOT. I added it above.

MirrorMirror's photo
Tue 11/18/08 06:07 PM
:smile: I believe that there may be groups of people in the world who are genetically descended from yeti.:smile:

tribo's photo
Tue 11/18/08 06:16 PM


Bohm called his proposed new field the quantum potential and theorized that, like gravity, it pervaded all of space. However, unlike gravitational fields, magnetic fields, and so on, its influence >>>>>>did<<<<<< diminish with distance. Its effects were subtle, but it was equally powerful everywhere. Bohms published his alternative interpretation of quantum theory in 1952.

was the above >>did<< a type-o ? should it be did not or didn't?



Thanks, I did leave out NOT. I added it above.


ok, now it makes sense, you've gotta learn to copy and paste just to make funch mad if nothing elselaugh

no photo
Tue 11/18/08 06:33 PM

:smile: I believe that there may be groups of people in the world who are genetically descended from yeti.:smile:


Who cares? huh bigsmile laugh laugh

MirrorMirror's photo
Tue 11/18/08 06:35 PM


:smile: I believe that there may be groups of people in the world who are genetically descended from yeti.:smile:


Who cares? huh bigsmile laugh laugh
:smile: Bob cares:smile:


drinks Hail Bobdrinks

no photo
Tue 11/18/08 06:36 PM



Bohm called his proposed new field the quantum potential and theorized that, like gravity, it pervaded all of space. However, unlike gravitational fields, magnetic fields, and so on, its influence >>>>>>did<<<<<< diminish with distance. Its effects were subtle, but it was equally powerful everywhere. Bohms published his alternative interpretation of quantum theory in 1952.

was the above >>did<< a type-o ? should it be did not or didn't?



Thanks, I did leave out NOT. I added it above.


ok, now it makes sense, you've gotta learn to copy and paste just to make funch mad if nothing elselaugh


I can't copy and paste it because I am typing it from reference books in my lap and summarizing it cause I don't want to spend the whole night doing this. I need to go finish my portrait of Veronica Lake.

jb

MirrorMirror's photo
Tue 11/18/08 06:41 PM
drinksThe Church of the Subgenius will rule the world one day.drinksI aint joking!shades

MirrorMirror's photo
Tue 11/18/08 07:05 PM


:smile: I believe that there may be groups of people in the world who are genetically descended from yeti.:smile:


Who cares? huh bigsmile laugh laugh
The World Ends Tomorrow and YOU


Well, no, probably not...but whatever you do, just keep reading!



ARE WE CONTROLLED BY SECRET FORCES?
ARE ALIEN SPACE MONSTERS BRINGING A STARTLING NEW WORLD?
DO PEOPLE THINK YOU'RE STRANGE?
DO YOU??
...THEN YOU MAY BE ON THE RIGHT TRACK!

"Unpredictables" are not alone and possess amazing hidden powers of their own!
Are You Abnormal?
YES! YOUR KIND SHALL TRIUMPH

MirrorMirror's photo
Tue 11/18/08 07:09 PM
Edited by MirrorMirror on Tue 11/18/08 07:10 PM
Jehovah 1
-- space god

The Church of the SubGenius is the PAN-RELIGION of the FUTURE, and REBELS against the namby-pamby, goody two-shoes "NEW AGE" and "AQUARIAN" ideals of most occult weirdos. Such people are fools, they do not curse, they have no understanding of the need for spiritual violence in this modern space-age a-go-go society.
The SubGenius wants no part of the "New Age," it is already here and it obviously sucks. The SubGenius would rather RETRIEVE the manly Past, before 1971 or even 1953, or else dwell in the naughty, fun-loving REMOTE FUTURE, a strange time when anything made of plastic is a valuable antique that collectors will KILL for, when SEXHURT will be recognized and indulged in as sane human nature no matter whether any 'church' or 'government' allows it. But such things are TRIFLES! The SubGenius knows that JEHOVAH 1 is a VENGEFUL GOD OF WRATH! JEHOVAH 1 - a.k.a. YAHWEH - is a mad alien, full of eyes round about, He cometh with the clouds, radioactive, all-pervading, He has forged His covenant with the SubGenius in CHAINS of GENETIC PROGRAMMING and DEMANDS OBEISANCE to His caveman sense of humor. He has been denying us SLACK and what He is making us do dates back to Homo Connectus, First Whole Man; only by letting our bodies obey the Code of financial lust survival that is built into them can our brains be freed from his INEVITABLE FIST.

MirrorMirror's photo
Tue 11/18/08 07:12 PM

David Bohm

During his early years as a physicist Bohm also accepted Bohr's position, but he remained puzzled by the lack of interest Bohr and his followers displayed toward interconnectedness. (Originally Bohr's argument was only meant to counter Einstein's claims and was not focused on interconnectedness.)

Bohm's work in plasmas lead him to an amazing discovery. A plasma is a gas containing a high density of electrons and positive ions, atoms that have a positive charge.

To his amazement he found that once they were in a plasma, electrons stopped behaving like individuals and started behaving as if they were part of a larger and interconnected whole. Although their individual movements appeared random, vast numbers of electrons were able to produce effects that were surprisingly well organized. Like some amoeboid creature, the plasma constantly regenerated itself and enclosed all impurities in a wall in the same way that a biological organism might encase a foreign substance in a cyst. So he frequently had the impression the electron sea was "alive."

In 1947 Bohm accepted an assistant professorship at Princeton University, an indication of how highly he was regarded, and there he extended his Berkeley research to the study of electrons in metals. Once again he found that the seemingly haphazard movement of individual electrons managed to produce highly organized overall effects. Like the plasmas he had studied at Berkley, these were no longer situations involving two particles, each behaving as if it knew what the other was doing, but entire oceans of particles, each behaving as if it knew what untold trillions of others were doing. Bohm called such collective movements of electrons plasmons, and their discovery established his reputation as a physicist.

But both his sense of the importance of interconnectedness as well as his growing dissatisfaction with several of the other prevailing views in physics caused Bohm to become increasingly troubled by Bohr's interpretation of quantum theory.

He decided to to improve his understanding by writing a text book. (Quantum Theory)

But he was still not comfortable with what quantum physic was saying and he sent copies of his book to both Bohr and Einstein to ask their opinions. He got no answer from Bohr but Einstein contacted him and said that since they were both at Princeton they should meet and discuss the book.

What turned into a six-month series of spirited conversations, Einstein enthusiastically told Bohm that he had never seen quantum theory presented so clearly. Nonetheless, he admitted he was still every bit as dissatisfied with the theory as was Bohm.

What bothered them was that it provided no real way of conceiving of the basic structure of the world.

Bohm decided that there had to be an alternative view.

Bohm decided that particles such as electrons do exist in the absence of observers. He also assumed that there was a deeper reality beneath Bohr's inviolable wall, a subquantum level that still awaited discovery by science.

Building on these premises he discovered that simply by proposing the existence of new kind of field on this subquantum level he was able to explain the finding of quantum physics as well as Bohr could.

Bohm called his proposed new field the quantum potential and theorized that, like gravity, it pervaded all of space. However, unlike gravitational fields, magnetic fields, and so on, its influence did NOT diminish with distance. Its effects were subtle, but it was equally powerful everywhere. Bohms published his alternative interpretation of quantum theory in 1952.

Reactions to his new approach was mainly negative. In short, Bohr's point of view had become so entrenched in physics that Bohms alternative was looked upon as little more than heresy.

But Bohm remained unswerving in his conviction that there was more to reality than Bohr's view allowed.

I am going to cut it short here, but Bohm's research ultimately lead him to the holographic model of reality.

jb


Everything we do, have done, or will ever do, normally on-the-job but also and especially on the causational level of micro-atomic occurences and billionth-of-a-nanosecond electron collisions, is dictated by the permutations of the great SKORE, the cosmic worknet of cause-and-effect, the mutamorphic ARCHIVE of the shapes and movements of every blood tick, sperm whale, vampire gnat, movie star and gorgosaurus, "all the molecules of oil on all the grains of sand of every moonlit beach of the world. " No, "YOU CAN'T CHANGE THE SKORE." But JEHOVAH 1 can...and like an ax this TOTAL FATE PROGRAM confronts our similarly-encoded SENSE OF SLACK and cleaves our heads straight down the middle into schizocephalic right and left sides whose sub-id battleground is responsible for our precariously balanced NENTAL IVES: clones of us in the spirit world whose duplicate lusts influence our behavior on this material plane. Yes - JEHOVAH 1 smote us in primeval days with BAD BRAKES by which we cannot stop our devil twin from overcoming our 'better nature' and by which, furthermore, we cannot even begin to tell the difference between the two! Brakes keep us from committing ANYTHING WE MIGHT IMAGINE IN OUR MOST DANGEROUS FLEETING FANTASIES, such as chopping off noisy children's heads and giving... well, all of us, even non-SubGeniuslike whimps of the second and third waters, are Jekyll/Hyde monsters of two conflicting Noggin Polarities in our personalities; the SHAFT OF SUPPRESSION rears its ugly Head in response to this utter psychosis which squirms for most of our lives only in the dim, unseen reaches of our behavior-pumps; we act completely normal most of the time, but who is to say at any given moment which side, the 'good' or the 'bad,' is currently in control of The Animal? Thank "God" we are usually never aware of the subconscious Armageddon which expresses itself, physically, in our paranoias, human Work Instincts and universanal compulsions, and, spiritually, in our unruly but subtle psychic powers - which result not so much from any 'inner aura' but rather from a somewhat mindless 'ghost' standing invisibly at our sides: it is the half of our intelligence which is currently not controlling The Animal, it is the NENTAL IFE, and it erupts from its usual idiot blithering into weird, occult pheno-manifestations only when our turbulent mental background reaches such peaks of simultaneous crisis and repression as the stormy glandular rampages of adolescence!

creativesoul's photo
Tue 11/18/08 07:36 PM
yawn




no photo
Tue 11/18/08 08:53 PM
Edited by Bushidobillyclub on Tue 11/18/08 09:10 PM
JB are you trying to say something about quantum entanglement?

I am still trying to understand how you think QM directly relates to energy fields and what these energy fields are able to do, and what effect do they have?
^
______
I edited becuase I really want to hi-light this question and not get off track.

creativesoul's photo
Tue 11/18/08 09:24 PM
I edited becuase I really want to hi-light this question and not get off track...


A very wise move. It has proven to be futile in my experience though.

laugh

no photo
Tue 11/18/08 09:55 PM
Edited by Jeanniebean on Tue 11/18/08 10:06 PM

JB are you trying to say something about quantum entanglement?

You are always alluding to the observer effect but always refer to it like the particle doesn't exist until its observed, but that is incorrect, Bohr did not believe that.


I don't know what Bohr "believed" but he pointed out that if subatomic particles only come into existence in the presence of an observer, then it is also meaningless to speak of a particle's properties and characteristics as existing before they are observed.

also: Bohr suggested that the particles were all part of an indivisible system, and it was meaningless to think of them otherwise.

This was disturbing to many physicists, for much of science was based on discovering the properties of phenomena. But if the act of observation actually helped create such properties, what did that imply about the future of science?

(Personally I don't think the particle exists except as a standing wave anyway, whether it is observed or not, but that's beside the point.)

But you were asking about things being connected and what QM had to do with that. That was brought up when Einstein criticized Bohr's interpretation of the two particle experiment where two "separated particles" acted as one. ~~I'm sure you know about that experiment.

In countering Einstein, Bohr's other explanation for the two particles acting as one at a distance was that they were not independent "things." (that they were connected rather than believing that some kind of faster-than-light communication was taking place.)

I am still trying to understand how you think QM directly relates to energy fields and what these energy fields are able to do, how do they effect things?


laugh

Everything is directly related to everything else is what you don't understand. You want to separate everything. This universe is all energy and energy fields and exchanges of information.

I feel like I'm just wasting my time gathering this information and posting it. If you think it is beneath your scientific expertise I'm very sorry.

Plasma is well know, those effects are very well known, and not attributed to anything mystical.


Of course they are "well known."

And when in this discussion have I attributed anything to being "mystical?" Nothing is mystical. Nothing is sacred.

Absolutely everything is science when people finally get it all figured out, and everyone is still trying to do just that.






SharpShooter10's photo
Tue 11/18/08 10:39 PM
Just saying Hello, that's all

me thinks the rest is over my head at the momentlaugh

1 2 7 8 9 10 11 13 15