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| Topic: CHURCH APOLOGIZES TO | |
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just for the record, I don't think creationism can be taught correctly in a 60 minute class during a few years of school. just think they should brush upon all ideas and beliefs. Not a conclusive class, save that for college, they don't teach everything about evolution as well at the high school level either Well then whats wrong with sending your kids to bible theology class! Let the public school system handle the scientific theories and premise. Now there is a novel idea. Why didnt I think of that!  Well you are entitled to these opinions of course but for the sake of this topic and debate, if you feel that Creationism should be taught in our public school systems along side of evolutionary theory, than please explain A. How that can be accomplished logistically. B. Why ONLY Creationism should be taught to the exclusion of ANY other Creation Mythology on the planet because they are all unsubstantiated. C. How you can teach a contradictory fairly tale while at the same time instructing students of the basic components of a highly plausible theory based in credible scientific evidence and substantiated premise. Go!  B. Never said shouldn't touch upon all creation accounts C. Again, all points of view and belief should be touched upon, put in in the evo class, as in, this is another way some see it |
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Edited by
SharpShooter10
on
Fri 09/19/08 02:02 PM
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I feel that all theories should be taught and let folks decide for themselves. If evolution and big bang are taught then so should creationism, does no good to teach one or the other without all sides being presented. Sharpshooter, With all due respect to you and your beliefs, creationism is not a scientific theory. One is participating in a perverse circus when carrying such falsehoods. I would easily give youthe benefit of the doubt, and suggest that you might not be doing it knowingly. Creationism is a perverse fundamentalist construction, based on nothing scientific and everything religious: the litteral interpretation of the bible, to fundamentalists denial of science in general, and evolution in particular. Creationism is perverse because it is nothing other than an 'edifice in denial'. It says nothing in itself, other than deny perversely and without foundation something which is founded and verifiable in our everyday life. The only academic forum where there might be a possibility to teach 'creationism', is the political science faculty where thecourse might be called 'THE ART OF DENIAL'. Unfortunately, denial has no relation whatsoever with pure sciences. If anything, science is counter denial. It often inderectly serves to 'debunk' prejudices, sclerosed thinking and denial. That is why it is perverse to keep pretending that the 'creationism: the art of denial' could ever be presented alongside any other scientific discipline. With all due respect, really! Evolution isn't something which one believes in?!?!? IT IS NOT A BELIEF. IT IS A SCIENCE, IT IS FACT. WHAT'S PROVEN IS PROVEN, AND WHAT ISN'T PROVEN, SIMPLY ISN'T. NOTHING TO BELIEVE IN!!! And that is why creationism is perverse, false, and a mischaracterization of reality. Creationism IS BASED on a litteral interpretation of the bible as the word of a particular god. THAT IS BELIEF, ... REQUIRING FAITH! Very distinct from scientific fact! So while beliefs are legitimate, they cannot be presented as facts. And while science is just as legitimate, IT CANNOT BE PRESENTED AS BELIEFS. As some often write on these forums: '... it just is what it is!!!...' No not really. You dont need to have faith to study, nor understand evolution. It's not a myth like Creationism is. All that requires is faith. I could tell you that a monster lives in my closet and how can you tell me that is not fact? Its the exact same premise. Evolution on the other hand has an overwhelming preponderance of factual and physical evidence. You cant even compare them. Here is a suggestion 'sharpshooter', in the domain of your beliefs, go ahead and BELIEVE IN A CREATOR. In the domain of facts, simply study, understand and acknowledge (not believe) the facts which make-up evolution to this day. And leave the rest, up to God!!! How's that? NO more mind games. Belief and faith in their domain. And science and facts in its domain. Paradoxically, that is the only way they can co-exist. NO WAR NECESSARY!!! If the Pope, and the Catholic church got it quite a while back, and the Church of England gets it now, I'm sure we can all do a little 'stretch', and each get it for ourselves! How's that 'sharpsooter'? He is the leader of the largest group of Christians on the planet!!! Aren't you all christians??? What about th Church of England??? Christian also??? There are serious limitations to divisiveness. Christianity is of no value to any one is it is reduced to the religion oF 'ONE'!!! There is supposed to be division amongst scientists. It is an inherent and necessary component. It is in part how they are capable of expanding their theories and reaching viable conclusions. They constantly argue and contradict one another. However you can either substantiate your theory or you cant. That is an integral element of the scientific method. |
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just for the record, I don't think creationism can be taught correctly in a 60 minute class during a few years of school. just think they should brush upon all ideas and beliefs. Not a conclusive class, save that for college, they don't teach everything about evolution as well at the high school level either Well then whats wrong with sending your kids to bible theology class! Let the public school system handle the scientific theories and premise. Now there is a novel idea. Why didnt I think of that! Well you are entitled to these opinions of course but for the sake of this topic and debate, if you feel that Creationism should be taught in our public school systems along side of evolutionary theory, than please explain A. How that can be accomplished logistically. B. Why ONLY Creationism should be taught to the exclusion of ANY other Creation Mythology on the planet because they are all unsubstantiated. C. How you can teach a contradictory fairly tale while at the same time instructing students of the basic components of a highly plausible theory based in credible scientific evidence and substantiated premise. Go! B. Never said shouldn't touch upon all creation accounts C. Again, all points of view and belief should be touched upon, put in in the evo class, as in, this is another way some see it Well "I have no idea" really doesn't help us accept your premise. Okay so if we have to now touch on EVERY creation mythology on the planet, how will we accomplish this in a 60 minute science period while also teaching the theory of evolution? Why would the science class now have the responsibility of teaching creation mythology? I dont understand your answers. Can you elaborate? |
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Why not have both in High School as seperate complete courses as Elective classes. Then you can choose which one or niether. I believe that would be fair and i would have no problem with..Shalom..Miles CREATIONISM IS A BELIEF, NOT A SCIENCE. EVOLUTION IS A SCIENCE, NOT A BELIEF. There will never be any truth in attempting to mix both contexts and elements: representing 'creationism' as we know it, as science is never going to be true, and representing evolution as a 'belief' is, just as much, never going to be true. Unless we take this simple fact into consideration, as the Catholic Church and Church of England have, this conversation is condemned to go round and round in circle. |
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just for the record, I don't think creationism can be taught correctly in a 60 minute class during a few years of school. just think they should brush upon all ideas and beliefs. Not a conclusive class, save that for college, they don't teach everything about evolution as well at the high school level either Well then whats wrong with sending your kids to bible theology class! Let the public school system handle the scientific theories and premise. Now there is a novel idea. Why didnt I think of that! Well you are entitled to these opinions of course but for the sake of this topic and debate, if you feel that Creationism should be taught in our public school systems along side of evolutionary theory, than please explain A. How that can be accomplished logistically. B. Why ONLY Creationism should be taught to the exclusion of ANY other Creation Mythology on the planet because they are all unsubstantiated. C. How you can teach a contradictory fairly tale while at the same time instructing students of the basic components of a highly plausible theory based in credible scientific evidence and substantiated premise. Go! B. Never said shouldn't touch upon all creation accounts C. Again, all points of view and belief should be touched upon, put in in the evo class, as in, this is another way some see it Well "I have no idea" really doesn't help us accept your premise. Okay so if we have to now touch on EVERY creation mythology on the planet, how will we accomplish this in a 60 minute science period while also teaching the theory of evolution? Why would the science class now have the responsibility of teaching creation mythology? I dont understand your answers. Can you elaborate? |
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Alright fair enough. I personally feel like it is quite fair to allow the public school system to continue to teach science and mathematics in their classrooms. Let them handle that end of it. I wish teachers were actually paid adequate wages but this debate is not addressing that issue of course.
Then your child is getting the best of both worlds because if you want to sign them up for bible theology classes on their own, have at it. |
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I feel that all theories should be taught and let folks decide for themselves. If evolution and big bang are taught then so should creationism, does no good to teach one or the other without all sides being presented. Sharpshooter, With all due respect to you and your beliefs, creationism is not a scientific theory. One is participating in a perverse circus when carrying such falsehoods. I would easily give youthe benefit of the doubt, and suggest that you might not be doing it knowingly. Creationism is a perverse fundamentalist construction, based on nothing scientific and everything religious: the litteral interpretation of the bible, to fundamentalists denial of science in general, and evolution in particular. Creationism is perverse because it is nothing other than an 'edifice in denial'. It says nothing in itself, other than deny perversely and without foundation something which is founded and verifiable in our everyday life. The only academic forum where there might be a possibility to teach 'creationism', is the political science faculty where thecourse might be called 'THE ART OF DENIAL'. Unfortunately, denial has no relation whatsoever with pure sciences. If anything, science is counter denial. It often inderectly serves to 'debunk' prejudices, sclerosed thinking and denial. That is why it is perverse to keep pretending that the 'creationism: the art of denial' could ever be presented alongside any other scientific discipline. With all due respect, really! Evolution isn't something which one believes in?!?!? IT IS NOT A BELIEF. IT IS A SCIENCE, IT IS FACT. WHAT'S PROVEN IS PROVEN, AND WHAT ISN'T PROVEN, SIMPLY ISN'T. NOTHING TO BELIEVE IN!!! And that is why creationism is perverse, false, and a mischaracterization of reality. Creationism IS BASED on a litteral interpretation of the bible as the word of a particular god. THAT IS BELIEF, ... REQUIRING FAITH! Very distinct from scientific fact! So while beliefs are legitimate, they cannot be presented as facts. And while science is just as legitimate, IT CANNOT BE PRESENTED AS BELIEFS. As some often write on these forums: '... it just is what it is!!!...' No not really. You dont need to have faith to study, nor understand evolution. It's not a myth like Creationism is. All that requires is faith. I could tell you that a monster lives in my closet and how can you tell me that is not fact? Its the exact same premise. Evolution on the other hand has an overwhelming preponderance of factual and physical evidence. You cant even compare them. Here is a suggestion 'sharpshooter', in the domain of your beliefs, go ahead and BELIEVE IN A CREATOR. In the domain of facts, simply study, understand and acknowledge (not believe) the facts which make-up evolution to this day. And leave the rest, up to God!!! How's that? NO more mind games. Belief and faith in their domain. And science and facts in its domain. Paradoxically, that is the only way they can co-exist. NO WAR NECESSARY!!! If the Pope, and the Catholic church got it quite a while back, and the Church of England gets it now, I'm sure we can all do a little 'stretch', and each get it for ourselves! How's that 'sharpsooter'? He is the leader of the largest group of Christians on the planet!!! Aren't you all christians??? What about th Church of England??? Christian also??? There are serious limitations to divisiveness. Christianity is of no value to any one is it is reduced to the religion oF 'ONE'!!! Sorry!!! My apologies. I had assumed you were Christian! |
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Alright fair enough. I personally feel like it is quite fair to allow the public school system to continue to teach science and mathematics in their classrooms. Let them handle that end of it. I wish teachers were actually paid adequate wages but this debate is not addressing that issue of course. Then your child is getting the best of both worlds because if you want to sign them up for bible theology classes on their own, have at it. |
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Edited by
SharpShooter10
on
Fri 09/19/08 02:17 PM
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just for the record, I don't think creationism can be taught correctly in a 60 minute class during a few years of school. just think they should brush upon all ideas and beliefs. Not a conclusive class, save that for college, they don't teach everything about evolution as well at the high school level either Well then whats wrong with sending your kids to bible theology class! Let the public school system handle the scientific theories and premise. Now there is a novel idea. Why didnt I think of that! Well you are entitled to these opinions of course but for the sake of this topic and debate, if you feel that Creationism should be taught in our public school systems along side of evolutionary theory, than please explain A. How that can be accomplished logistically. B. Why ONLY Creationism should be taught to the exclusion of ANY other Creation Mythology on the planet because they are all unsubstantiated. C. How you can teach a contradictory fairly tale while at the same time instructing students of the basic components of a highly plausible theory based in credible scientific evidence and substantiated premise. Go! B. Never said shouldn't touch upon all creation accounts C. Again, all points of view and belief should be touched upon, put in in the evo class, as in, this is another way some see it Well "I have no idea" really doesn't help us accept your premise. Okay so if we have to now touch on EVERY creation mythology on the planet, how will we accomplish this in a 60 minute science period while also teaching the theory of evolution? Why would the science class now have the responsibility of teaching creation mythology? I dont understand your answers. Can you elaborate? The purpose of these topics I thought were to share our opposing ideas, and some can listen to all and some can't. Didn't realize i was going to open up such a can of worms here, again, all must follow their own hearts and minds, I can live with that. |
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Edited by
Krimsa
on
Fri 09/19/08 02:18 PM
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Alright fair enough. I personally feel like it is quite fair to allow the public school system to continue to teach science and mathematics in their classrooms. Let them handle that end of it. I wish teachers were actually paid adequate wages but this debate is not addressing that issue of course. Then your child is getting the best of both worlds because if you want to sign them up for bible theology classes on their own, have at it. I was speaking in general terms meaning all children and not directing the comment towards your own. Sorry I should have clarified that. And how would allowing your kids access to the theory of evolution in public school and then having them also attend bible theology classes not allow them to see all sides of the debate? |
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Edited by
SharpShooter10
on
Fri 09/19/08 02:24 PM
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Alright fair enough. I personally feel like it is quite fair to allow the public school system to continue to teach science and mathematics in their classrooms. Let them handle that end of it. I wish teachers were actually paid adequate wages but this debate is not addressing that issue of course. Then your child is getting the best of both worlds because if you want to sign them up for bible theology classes on their own, have at it. I was speaking in general terms meaning all children and not directing the comment towards your own. Sorry I should have clarified that. And how would allowing your kids access to the theory of evolution in public school and then having them also attend bible theology classes not allow them to see all sides of the debate? |
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Edited by
Krimsa
on
Fri 09/19/08 02:25 PM
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just for the record, I don't think creationism can be taught correctly in a 60 minute class during a few years of school. just think they should brush upon all ideas and beliefs. Not a conclusive class, save that for college, they don't teach everything about evolution as well at the high school level either Well then whats wrong with sending your kids to bible theology class! Let the public school system handle the scientific theories and premise. Now there is a novel idea. Why didnt I think of that! Well you are entitled to these opinions of course but for the sake of this topic and debate, if you feel that Creationism should be taught in our public school systems along side of evolutionary theory, than please explain A. How that can be accomplished logistically. B. Why ONLY Creationism should be taught to the exclusion of ANY other Creation Mythology on the planet because they are all unsubstantiated. C. How you can teach a contradictory fairly tale while at the same time instructing students of the basic components of a highly plausible theory based in credible scientific evidence and substantiated premise. Go! B. Never said shouldn't touch upon all creation accounts C. Again, all points of view and belief should be touched upon, put in in the evo class, as in, this is another way some see it Well "I have no idea" really doesn't help us accept your premise. Okay so if we have to now touch on EVERY creation mythology on the planet, how will we accomplish this in a 60 minute science period while also teaching the theory of evolution? Why would the science class now have the responsibility of teaching creation mythology? I dont understand your answers. Can you elaborate? The purpose of these topics I thought were to share our opposing ideas, and some can listen to all and some can't. Didn't realize i was going to open up such a can of worms here, again, all must follow their own hearts and minds, I can live with that. It is a debate and I simply asked that you elaborate on the topic. You haven't really formulated an opinion and said "you didnt know" how to approach this so that is why I asked you to expand on your ideas a bit more comprehensively. You have yet to open a can that I am aware of. |
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just for the record, I don't think creationism can be taught correctly in a 60 minute class during a few years of school. just think they should brush upon all ideas and beliefs. Not a conclusive class, save that for college, they don't teach everything about evolution as well at the high school level either Well then whats wrong with sending your kids to bible theology class! Let the public school system handle the scientific theories and premise. Now there is a novel idea. Why didnt I think of that! Well you are entitled to these opinions of course but for the sake of this topic and debate, if you feel that Creationism should be taught in our public school systems along side of evolutionary theory, than please explain A. How that can be accomplished logistically. B. Why ONLY Creationism should be taught to the exclusion of ANY other Creation Mythology on the planet because they are all unsubstantiated. C. How you can teach a contradictory fairly tale while at the same time instructing students of the basic components of a highly plausible theory based in credible scientific evidence and substantiated premise. Go! B. Never said shouldn't touch upon all creation accounts C. Again, all points of view and belief should be touched upon, put in in the evo class, as in, this is another way some see it Well "I have no idea" really doesn't help us accept your premise. Okay so if we have to now touch on EVERY creation mythology on the planet, how will we accomplish this in a 60 minute science period while also teaching the theory of evolution? Why would the science class now have the responsibility of teaching creation mythology? I dont understand your answers. Can you elaborate? |
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just for the record, I don't think creationism can be taught correctly in a 60 minute class during a few years of school. just think they should brush upon all ideas and beliefs. Not a conclusive class, save that for college, they don't teach everything about evolution as well at the high school level either Wouldn't that be a class under the title of theology or mythology? I don't think creationism myths come close to qualifying as science or theory, and I certainly don't think they should be in the same class. I really don't have a problem with a mythology class or a basic theology class in schools, but you're not going to get away with teaching this stuff as science or in a science class. JB |
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The greatest trick the devil ever pulled was convincing the world he doesnt exist Exactly !!!!!!!  he is the great deceiver...   he wants people to think he doesn't exist...  so people will just continue to do their own selfish, foolish thing  |
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Why not have both in High School as seperate complete courses as Elective classes. Then you can choose which one or niether. I believe that would be fair and i would have no problem with..Shalom..Miles You can do that but it is not a question of choosing one or the other. They are not the same subject. One is theology and mythology, and the other is science and scientific theory. They are not even in competition with each other as far as I am concerned. But I would be willing to bet Religions would pitch a royal fit if they taught creationism in a mythology class because they want to peddle it as "science." Just because you put the name "science" after the word "Creationism" does not give it credibility as a science. JB |
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Edited by
Krimsa
on
Fri 09/19/08 02:31 PM
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just for the record, I don't think creationism can be taught correctly in a 60 minute class during a few years of school. just think they should brush upon all ideas and beliefs. Not a conclusive class, save that for college, they don't teach everything about evolution as well at the high school level either Well then whats wrong with sending your kids to bible theology class! Let the public school system handle the scientific theories and premise. Now there is a novel idea. Why didnt I think of that! Well you are entitled to these opinions of course but for the sake of this topic and debate, if you feel that Creationism should be taught in our public school systems along side of evolutionary theory, than please explain A. How that can be accomplished logistically. B. Why ONLY Creationism should be taught to the exclusion of ANY other Creation Mythology on the planet because they are all unsubstantiated. C. How you can teach a contradictory fairly tale while at the same time instructing students of the basic components of a highly plausible theory based in credible scientific evidence and substantiated premise. Go! B. Never said shouldn't touch upon all creation accounts C. Again, all points of view and belief should be touched upon, put in in the evo class, as in, this is another way some see it Well "I have no idea" really doesn't help us accept your premise. Okay so if we have to now touch on EVERY creation mythology on the planet, how will we accomplish this in a 60 minute science period while also teaching the theory of evolution? Why would the science class now have the responsibility of teaching creation mythology? I dont understand your answers. Can you elaborate? Well I already gave you my thoughts so...I went ahead and posed the reasons (as I understand them) that it would be very difficult and actually impossible to teach Creationism in a public school classroom setting. It would be up to you to address those posed problems. If you don't know, you don't know. That is why I asserted that it is fine to teach theology outside of the pubic school setting. This is the reason the evangelical Christians have been argued out of a court of law every time they broach this issue. |
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Edited by
SharpShooter10
on
Fri 09/19/08 02:36 PM
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actually JB, I said earlier that I don't think creation could be taught effectively in these classes.
If it was up to me, it should be taught in church, but I don't believe a lot of churches teach everything correctly either. Leave it out, just think it should be bought up as an opposing belief on the theory of evolution as well, they don't have to go into any great detail. They could very well mention it for all I know, it has been sometime since high school for me anyway |
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The greatest trick the devil ever pulled was convincing the world he doesnt exist Well since so many people believe in him, I would say he failed. That is, if he does exist.  ahhh, yes...it is a mixed bag of doubt & belief...  |
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The greatest trick the devil ever pulled was convincing the world he doesnt exist Exactly !!!!!!! he is the great deceiver... Yes he is. He has everyone convinced he created the earth. he wants people to think he doesn't exist... so people will just continue to do their own selfish, foolish thing No, he wants everyone to think he is God, and his alter ego is the devil. You see, we live in the world of the two headed God. One good, one evil. (Both are "Satan.") I know this will come as a shock to some of you, but that's the truth. JB |
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