Community > General Religion Chat

Topic: CHURCH APOLOGIZES TO
SharpShooter10 Joined Tue 11/20/07 Posts: 11271	Fri 09/19/08 01:30 PM
Fine but that is not really addressing the topic. c'mon, we all have a tendency to stray off topic in these things from time to time. That's my thoughts that came out under here so in a way it's not off topic

Krimsa Joined Fri 04/25/08 Posts: 9960	Fri 09/19/08 01:31 PM
OK, I've got the answer - new schools that teach ""secular creatilution"" that ought to rellay mess the kids up, it could be thought of as geisis like this _ in the beginning was god and Darwin said let there be ooze. Well that is what you will end up with if you attempt to permit Creationism to be taught along side the Theory of Evolution in a 60 minutes science class period in a public school system. You will end up with a discombobulated mish mash of nonsensical, conflicting data. The students will be attempting to date Homo habilis while trying to figure out who did what in the Garden of Eden. It will be too confusing. That is what I meant by you need to be rational and realistic about this Sharp.

SharpShooter10 Joined Tue 11/20/07 Posts: 11271	Fri 09/19/08 01:34 PM
how does posting our thoughts in here become non rational and unrealistic. We all know pretty much how we all feel about certain things in here, should not come as a shock or suprise to any of us.

voileazur Joined Sun 03/11/07 Posts: 2140	Fri 09/19/08 01:35 PM
I feel that all theories should be taught and let folks decide for themselves. If evolution and big bang are taught then so should creationism, does no good to teach one or the other without all sides being presented. Sharpshooter, With all due respect to you and your beliefs, creationism is not a scientific theory. One is participating in a perverse circus when carrying such falsehoods. I would easily give youthe benefit of the doubt, and suggest that you might not be doing it knowingly. Creationism is a perverse fundamentalist construction, based on nothing scientific and everything religious: the litteral interpretation of the bible, to fundamentalists denial of science in general, and evolution in particular. Creationism is perverse because it is nothing other than an 'edifice in denial'. It says nothing in itself, other than deny perversely and without foundation something which is founded and verifiable in our everyday life. The only academic forum where there might be a possibility to teach 'creationism', is the political science faculty where thecourse might be called 'THE ART OF DENIAL'. Unfortunately, denial has no relation whatsoever with pure sciences. If anything, science is counter denial. It often inderectly serves to 'debunk' prejudices, sclerosed thinking and denial. That is why it is perverse to keep pretending that the 'creationism: the art of denial' could ever be presented alongside any other scientific discipline. With all due respect, really! and with all due respect, evolution, to me, is not completely acceptable as well, I took the classes (because we were given no choice) I took the test and passed them, because i wanted to graduate, still , never believed it, and when I was young my faith wasn't as strong as it is now, including one without the others is wrong, so I say again, how about making them electives. Evolution isn't something which one believes in?!?!? IT IS NOT A BELIEF. IT IS A SCIENCE, IT IS FACT. WHAT'S PROVEN IS PROVEN, AND WHAT ISN'T PROVEN, SIMPLY ISN'T. NOTHING TO BELIEVE IN!!! And that is why creationism is perverse, false, and a mischaracterization of reality. Creationism IS BASED on a litteral interpretation of the bible as the word of a particular god. THAT IS BELIEF, ... REQUIRING FAITH! Very distinct from scientific fact! So while beliefs are legitimate, they cannot be presented as facts. And while science is just as legitimate, IT CANNOT BE PRESENTED AS BELIEFS. As some often write on these forums: '... it just is what it is!!!...' evolution still requires one to believe in it or to have unquestionable faith in science, I, and I stress I dont No not really. You dont need to have faith to study, nor understand evolution. It's not a myth like Creationism is. All that requires is faith. I could tell you that a monster lives in my closet and how can you tell me that is not fact? Its the exact same premise. Evolution on the other hand has an overwhelming preponderance of factual and physical evidence. You cant even compare them. I'm really not trying or wanting to compare them. I try to look at them as separate, although I must admit that can be hard to do at times. Still say believe as one will, I'm not trying to swing anyone to my belief system. sharing my thoughts and beliefs as are all of us. Those who read all this stuff we put in here have to make their own minds up. Here is a suggestion 'sharpshooter', in the domain of your beliefs, go ahead and BELIEVE IN A CREATOR. In the domain of facts, simply study, understand and acknowledge (not believe) the facts which make-up evolution to this day. And leave the rest, up to God!!! How's that? NO more mind games. Belief and faith in their domain. And science and facts in its domain. Paradoxically, that is the only way they can co-exist. NO WAR NECESSARY!!! If the Pope, and the Catholic church got it quite a while back, and the Church of England gets it now, I'm sure we can all do a little 'stretch', and each get it for ourselves! How's that 'sharpsooter'?

SharpShooter10 Joined Tue 11/20/07 Posts: 11271	Fri 09/19/08 01:36 PM
just for the record, I don't think creationism can be taught correctly in a 60 minute class during a few years of school. just think they should brush upon all ideas and beliefs. Not a conclusive class, save that for college, they don't teach everything about evolution as well at the high school level either

Derrek13 Joined Wed 06/06/07 Posts: 60	Fri 09/19/08 01:38 PM
What if Evolution and Creationism are on and the same? Most stories are based upon a bit of truth and then either expaned or condensed to make the story a better tale. What if the book of Genesis, Being extremely vauge and written by man, condensed the first millons years of evolution to make it an easier read. Really who would want to read and "so god created alge which fed the plankton which gave rise to".....etc.

SharpShooter10 Joined Tue 11/20/07 Posts: 11271	Fri 09/19/08 01:40 PM
I feel that all theories should be taught and let folks decide for themselves. If evolution and big bang are taught then so should creationism, does no good to teach one or the other without all sides being presented. Sharpshooter, With all due respect to you and your beliefs, creationism is not a scientific theory. One is participating in a perverse circus when carrying such falsehoods. I would easily give youthe benefit of the doubt, and suggest that you might not be doing it knowingly. Creationism is a perverse fundamentalist construction, based on nothing scientific and everything religious: the litteral interpretation of the bible, to fundamentalists denial of science in general, and evolution in particular. Creationism is perverse because it is nothing other than an 'edifice in denial'. It says nothing in itself, other than deny perversely and without foundation something which is founded and verifiable in our everyday life. The only academic forum where there might be a possibility to teach 'creationism', is the political science faculty where thecourse might be called 'THE ART OF DENIAL'. Unfortunately, denial has no relation whatsoever with pure sciences. If anything, science is counter denial. It often inderectly serves to 'debunk' prejudices, sclerosed thinking and denial. That is why it is perverse to keep pretending that the 'creationism: the art of denial' could ever be presented alongside any other scientific discipline. With all due respect, really! and with all due respect, evolution, to me, is not completely acceptable as well, I took the classes (because we were given no choice) I took the test and passed them, because i wanted to graduate, still , never believed it, and when I was young my faith wasn't as strong as it is now, including one without the others is wrong, so I say again, how about making them electives. Evolution isn't something which one believes in?!?!? IT IS NOT A BELIEF. IT IS A SCIENCE, IT IS FACT. WHAT'S PROVEN IS PROVEN, AND WHAT ISN'T PROVEN, SIMPLY ISN'T. NOTHING TO BELIEVE IN!!! And that is why creationism is perverse, false, and a mischaracterization of reality. Creationism IS BASED on a litteral interpretation of the bible as the word of a particular god. THAT IS BELIEF, ... REQUIRING FAITH! Very distinct from scientific fact! So while beliefs are legitimate, they cannot be presented as facts. And while science is just as legitimate, IT CANNOT BE PRESENTED AS BELIEFS. As some often write on these forums: '... it just is what it is!!!...' evolution still requires one to believe in it or to have unquestionable faith in science, I, and I stress I dont No not really. You dont need to have faith to study, nor understand evolution. It's not a myth like Creationism is. All that requires is faith. I could tell you that a monster lives in my closet and how can you tell me that is not fact? Its the exact same premise. Evolution on the other hand has an overwhelming preponderance of factual and physical evidence. You cant even compare them. I'm really not trying or wanting to compare them. I try to look at them as separate, although I must admit that can be hard to do at times. Still say believe as one will, I'm not trying to swing anyone to my belief system. sharing my thoughts and beliefs as are all of us. Those who read all this stuff we put in here have to make their own minds up. Here is a suggestion 'sharpshooter', in the domain of your beliefs, go ahead and BELIEVE IN A CREATOR. In the domain of facts, simply study, understand and acknowledge (not believe) the facts which make-up evolution to this day. And leave the rest, up to God!!! How's that? NO more mind games. Belief and faith in their domain. And science and facts in its domain. Paradoxically, that is the only way they can co-exist. NO WAR NECESSARY!!! If the Pope, and the Catholic church got it quite a while back, and the Church of England gets it now, I'm sure we can all do a little 'stretch', and each get it for ourselves! How's that 'sharpsooter'? fine with me, didn't no we were at war. I also place no stock in what the pope says, not a catholic

Krimsa Joined Fri 04/25/08 Posts: 9960	Fri 09/19/08 01:40 PM
just for the record, I don't think creationism can be taught correctly in a 60 minute class during a few years of school. just think they should brush upon all ideas and beliefs. Not a conclusive class, save that for college, they don't teach everything about evolution as well at the high school level either Well then whats wrong with sending your kids to bible theology class! Let the public school system handle the scientific theories and premise. Now there is a novel idea. Why didnt I think of that!

Milesoftheusa Joined Fri 10/27/06 Posts: 5122	Fri 09/19/08 01:43 PM
Why not have both in High School as seperate complete courses as Elective classes. Then you can choose which one or niether. I believe that would be fair and i would have no problem with..Shalom..Miles

SharpShooter10 Joined Tue 11/20/07 Posts: 11271	Fri 09/19/08 01:43 PM Edited by SharpShooter10 on Fri 09/19/08 01:47 PM
What if Evolution and Creationism are on and the same? Most stories are based upon a bit of truth and then either expaned or condensed to make the story a better tale. What if the book of Genesis, Being extremely vauge and written by man, condensed the first millons years of evolution to make it an easier read. Really who would want to read and "so god created alge which fed the plankton which gave rise to".....etc. different scientist offer support for both sides of the debate. again, don't understand why people get upset cause I choose to discout a large portion of it, (notice I didn't say all of it). Just giving those that view and don't respond a chance to hear yet another thought on the subject.

SharpShooter10 Joined Tue 11/20/07 Posts: 11271	Fri 09/19/08 01:45 PM
just for the record, I don't think creationism can be taught correctly in a 60 minute class during a few years of school. just think they should brush upon all ideas and beliefs. Not a conclusive class, save that for college, they don't teach everything about evolution as well at the high school level either Well then whats wrong with sending your kids to bible theology class! Let the public school system handle the scientific theories and premise. Now there is a novel idea. Why didnt I think of that! nothing wrong with that either, but I still say that a lot of so called theology is a bunch of hogwash as well.

voileazur Joined Sun 03/11/07 Posts: 2140	Fri 09/19/08 01:45 PM
I feel that all theories should be taught and let folks decide for themselves. If evolution and big bang are taught then so should creationism, does no good to teach one or the other without all sides being presented. Sharpshooter, With all due respect to you and your beliefs, creationism is not a scientific theory. One is participating in a perverse circus when carrying such falsehoods. I would easily give youthe benefit of the doubt, and suggest that you might not be doing it knowingly. Creationism is a perverse fundamentalist construction, based on nothing scientific and everything religious: the litteral interpretation of the bible, to fundamentalists denial of science in general, and evolution in particular. Creationism is perverse because it is nothing other than an 'edifice in denial'. It says nothing in itself, other than deny perversely and without foundation something which is founded and verifiable in our everyday life. The only academic forum where there might be a possibility to teach 'creationism', is the political science faculty where thecourse might be called 'THE ART OF DENIAL'. Unfortunately, denial has no relation whatsoever with pure sciences. If anything, science is counter denial. It often inderectly serves to 'debunk' prejudices, sclerosed thinking and denial. That is why it is perverse to keep pretending that the 'creationism: the art of denial' could ever be presented alongside any other scientific discipline. With all due respect, really! and with all due respect, evolution, to me, is not completely acceptable as well, I took the classes (because we were given no choice) I took the test and passed them, because i wanted to graduate, still , never believed it, and when I was young my faith wasn't as strong as it is now, including one without the others is wrong, so I say again, how about making them electives. Evolution isn't something which one believes in?!?!? IT IS NOT A BELIEF. IT IS A SCIENCE, IT IS FACT. WHAT'S PROVEN IS PROVEN, AND WHAT ISN'T PROVEN, SIMPLY ISN'T. NOTHING TO BELIEVE IN!!! And that is why creationism is perverse, false, and a mischaracterization of reality. Creationism IS BASED on a litteral interpretation of the bible as the word of a particular god. THAT IS BELIEF, ... REQUIRING FAITH! Very distinct from scientific fact! So while beliefs are legitimate, they cannot be presented as facts. And while science is just as legitimate, IT CANNOT BE PRESENTED AS BELIEFS. As some often write on these forums: '... it just is what it is!!!...' evolution still requires one to believe in it or to have unquestionable faith in science, I, and I stress I dont No not really. You dont need to have faith to study, nor understand evolution. It's not a myth like Creationism is. All that requires is faith. I could tell you that a monster lives in my closet and how can you tell me that is not fact? Its the exact same premise. Evolution on the other hand has an overwhelming preponderance of factual and physical evidence. You cant even compare them. I'm really not trying or wanting to compare them. I try to look at them as separate, although I must admit that can be hard to do at times. Still say believe as one will, I'm not trying to swing anyone to my belief system. sharing my thoughts and beliefs as are all of us. Those who read all this stuff we put in here have to make their own minds up. Here is a suggestion 'sharpshooter', in the domain of your beliefs, go ahead and BELIEVE IN A CREATOR. In the domain of facts, simply study, understand and acknowledge (not believe) the facts which make-up evolution to this day. And leave the rest, up to God!!! How's that? NO more mind games. Belief and faith in their domain. And science and facts in its domain. Paradoxically, that is the only way they can co-exist. NO WAR NECESSARY!!! If the Pope, and the Catholic church got it quite a while back, and the Church of England gets it now, I'm sure we can all do a little 'stretch', and each get it for ourselves! How's that 'sharpsooter'? fine with me, didn't no we were at war. I also place no stock in what the pope says, not a catholic He is the leader of the largest group of Christians on the planet!!! Aren't you all christians??? What about th Church of England??? Christian also??? There are serious limitations to divisiveness. Christianity is of no value to any one is it is reduced to the religion oF 'ONE'!!!

SharpShooter10 Joined Tue 11/20/07 Posts: 11271	Fri 09/19/08 01:46 PM
Why not have both in High School as seperate complete courses as Elective classes. Then you can choose which one or niether. I believe that would be fair and i would have no problem with..Shalom..Miles I tried that miles, didn't go over well, for some reason evolution can be taught but not the other, neither I believe can be taught completely, they should touch upon all beliefs and theories.

SharpShooter10 Joined Tue 11/20/07 Posts: 11271	Fri 09/19/08 01:50 PM
I feel that all theories should be taught and let folks decide for themselves. If evolution and big bang are taught then so should creationism, does no good to teach one or the other without all sides being presented. Sharpshooter, With all due respect to you and your beliefs, creationism is not a scientific theory. One is participating in a perverse circus when carrying such falsehoods. I would easily give youthe benefit of the doubt, and suggest that you might not be doing it knowingly. Creationism is a perverse fundamentalist construction, based on nothing scientific and everything religious: the litteral interpretation of the bible, to fundamentalists denial of science in general, and evolution in particular. Creationism is perverse because it is nothing other than an 'edifice in denial'. It says nothing in itself, other than deny perversely and without foundation something which is founded and verifiable in our everyday life. The only academic forum where there might be a possibility to teach 'creationism', is the political science faculty where thecourse might be called 'THE ART OF DENIAL'. Unfortunately, denial has no relation whatsoever with pure sciences. If anything, science is counter denial. It often inderectly serves to 'debunk' prejudices, sclerosed thinking and denial. That is why it is perverse to keep pretending that the 'creationism: the art of denial' could ever be presented alongside any other scientific discipline. With all due respect, really! and with all due respect, evolution, to me, is not completely acceptable as well, I took the classes (because we were given no choice) I took the test and passed them, because i wanted to graduate, still , never believed it, and when I was young my faith wasn't as strong as it is now, including one without the others is wrong, so I say again, how about making them electives. Evolution isn't something which one believes in?!?!? IT IS NOT A BELIEF. IT IS A SCIENCE, IT IS FACT. WHAT'S PROVEN IS PROVEN, AND WHAT ISN'T PROVEN, SIMPLY ISN'T. NOTHING TO BELIEVE IN!!! And that is why creationism is perverse, false, and a mischaracterization of reality. Creationism IS BASED on a litteral interpretation of the bible as the word of a particular god. THAT IS BELIEF, ... REQUIRING FAITH! Very distinct from scientific fact! So while beliefs are legitimate, they cannot be presented as facts. And while science is just as legitimate, IT CANNOT BE PRESENTED AS BELIEFS. As some often write on these forums: '... it just is what it is!!!...' evolution still requires one to believe in it or to have unquestionable faith in science, I, and I stress I dont No not really. You dont need to have faith to study, nor understand evolution. It's not a myth like Creationism is. All that requires is faith. I could tell you that a monster lives in my closet and how can you tell me that is not fact? Its the exact same premise. Evolution on the other hand has an overwhelming preponderance of factual and physical evidence. You cant even compare them. I'm really not trying or wanting to compare them. I try to look at them as separate, although I must admit that can be hard to do at times. Still say believe as one will, I'm not trying to swing anyone to my belief system. sharing my thoughts and beliefs as are all of us. Those who read all this stuff we put in here have to make their own minds up. Here is a suggestion 'sharpshooter', in the domain of your beliefs, go ahead and BELIEVE IN A CREATOR. In the domain of facts, simply study, understand and acknowledge (not believe) the facts which make-up evolution to this day. And leave the rest, up to God!!! How's that? NO more mind games. Belief and faith in their domain. And science and facts in its domain. Paradoxically, that is the only way they can co-exist. NO WAR NECESSARY!!! If the Pope, and the Catholic church got it quite a while back, and the Church of England gets it now, I'm sure we can all do a little 'stretch', and each get it for ourselves! How's that 'sharpsooter'? fine with me, didn't no we were at war. I also place no stock in what the pope says, not a catholic He is the leader of the largest group of Christians on the planet!!! Aren't you all christians??? What about th Church of England??? Christian also??? There are serious limitations to divisiveness. Christianity is of no value to any one is it is reduced to the religion oF 'ONE'!!! Don't care if it's the largest or smallest church, not a member, so I don't keep up with it, they do not speak for me, I am non denominational myself, my choice.

Krimsa Joined Fri 04/25/08 Posts: 9960	Fri 09/19/08 01:50 PM
just for the record, I don't think creationism can be taught correctly in a 60 minute class during a few years of school. just think they should brush upon all ideas and beliefs. Not a conclusive class, save that for college, they don't teach everything about evolution as well at the high school level either Well then whats wrong with sending your kids to bible theology class! Let the public school system handle the scientific theories and premise. Now there is a novel idea. Why didnt I think of that! nothing wrong with that either, but I still say that a lot of so called theology is a bunch of hogwash as well. Well you are entitled to these opinions of course but for the sake of this topic and debate, if you feel that Creationism should be taught in our public school systems along side of evolutionary theory, than please explain A. How that can be accomplished logistically. B. Why ONLY Creationism should be taught to the exclusion of ANY other Creation Mythology on the planet because they are all unsubstantiated. C. How you can teach a contradictory fairly tale while at the same time instructing students of the basic components of a highly plausible theory based in credible scientific evidence and substantiated premise. Go!

SharpShooter10 Joined Tue 11/20/07 Posts: 11271	Fri 09/19/08 01:53 PM
I feel that all theories should be taught and let folks decide for themselves. If evolution and big bang are taught then so should creationism, does no good to teach one or the other without all sides being presented. Sharpshooter, With all due respect to you and your beliefs, creationism is not a scientific theory. One is participating in a perverse circus when carrying such falsehoods. I would easily give youthe benefit of the doubt, and suggest that you might not be doing it knowingly. Creationism is a perverse fundamentalist construction, based on nothing scientific and everything religious: the litteral interpretation of the bible, to fundamentalists denial of science in general, and evolution in particular. Creationism is perverse because it is nothing other than an 'edifice in denial'. It says nothing in itself, other than deny perversely and without foundation something which is founded and verifiable in our everyday life. The only academic forum where there might be a possibility to teach 'creationism', is the political science faculty where thecourse might be called 'THE ART OF DENIAL'. Unfortunately, denial has no relation whatsoever with pure sciences. If anything, science is counter denial. It often inderectly serves to 'debunk' prejudices, sclerosed thinking and denial. That is why it is perverse to keep pretending that the 'creationism: the art of denial' could ever be presented alongside any other scientific discipline. With all due respect, really! and with all due respect, evolution, to me, is not completely acceptable as well, I took the classes (because we were given no choice) I took the test and passed them, because i wanted to graduate, still , never believed it, and when I was young my faith wasn't as strong as it is now, including one without the others is wrong, so I say again, how about making them electives. Evolution isn't something which one believes in?!?!? IT IS NOT A BELIEF. IT IS A SCIENCE, IT IS FACT. WHAT'S PROVEN IS PROVEN, AND WHAT ISN'T PROVEN, SIMPLY ISN'T. NOTHING TO BELIEVE IN!!! And that is why creationism is perverse, false, and a mischaracterization of reality. Creationism IS BASED on a litteral interpretation of the bible as the word of a particular god. THAT IS BELIEF, ... REQUIRING FAITH! Very distinct from scientific fact! So while beliefs are legitimate, they cannot be presented as facts. And while science is just as legitimate, IT CANNOT BE PRESENTED AS BELIEFS. As some often write on these forums: '... it just is what it is!!!...' evolution still requires one to believe in it or to have unquestionable faith in science, I, and I stress I dont No not really. You dont need to have faith to study, nor understand evolution. It's not a myth like Creationism is. All that requires is faith. I could tell you that a monster lives in my closet and how can you tell me that is not fact? Its the exact same premise. Evolution on the other hand has an overwhelming preponderance of factual and physical evidence. You cant even compare them. I'm really not trying or wanting to compare them. I try to look at them as separate, although I must admit that can be hard to do at times. Still say believe as one will, I'm not trying to swing anyone to my belief system. sharing my thoughts and beliefs as are all of us. Those who read all this stuff we put in here have to make their own minds up. Here is a suggestion 'sharpshooter', in the domain of your beliefs, go ahead and BELIEVE IN A CREATOR. In the domain of facts, simply study, understand and acknowledge (not believe) the facts which make-up evolution to this day. And leave the rest, up to God!!! How's that? NO more mind games. Belief and faith in their domain. And science and facts in its domain. Paradoxically, that is the only way they can co-exist. NO WAR NECESSARY!!! If the Pope, and the Catholic church got it quite a while back, and the Church of England gets it now, I'm sure we can all do a little 'stretch', and each get it for ourselves! How's that 'sharpsooter'? fine with me, didn't no we were at war. I also place no stock in what the pope says, not a catholic He is the leader of the largest group of Christians on the planet!!! Aren't you all christians??? What about th Church of England??? Christian also??? There are serious limitations to divisiveness. Christianity is of no value to any one is it is reduced to the religion oF 'ONE'!!! You clearly haven't read many of my post, I can disagree with many so called pastors and theologians as well. Not because I think I am right and have all the answers, there should be no need for different denominations but there is, because of division, there are divisions among the scientist as well, it's no big deal

SharpShooter10 Joined Tue 11/20/07 Posts: 11271	Fri 09/19/08 01:55 PM
I feel that all theories should be taught and let folks decide for themselves. If evolution and big bang are taught then so should creationism, does no good to teach one or the other without all sides being presented. Sharpshooter, With all due respect to you and your beliefs, creationism is not a scientific theory. One is participating in a perverse circus when carrying such falsehoods. I would easily give youthe benefit of the doubt, and suggest that you might not be doing it knowingly. Creationism is a perverse fundamentalist construction, based on nothing scientific and everything religious: the litteral interpretation of the bible, to fundamentalists denial of science in general, and evolution in particular. Creationism is perverse because it is nothing other than an 'edifice in denial'. It says nothing in itself, other than deny perversely and without foundation something which is founded and verifiable in our everyday life. The only academic forum where there might be a possibility to teach 'creationism', is the political science faculty where thecourse might be called 'THE ART OF DENIAL'. Unfortunately, denial has no relation whatsoever with pure sciences. If anything, science is counter denial. It often inderectly serves to 'debunk' prejudices, sclerosed thinking and denial. That is why it is perverse to keep pretending that the 'creationism: the art of denial' could ever be presented alongside any other scientific discipline. With all due respect, really! and with all due respect, evolution, to me, is not completely acceptable as well, I took the classes (because we were given no choice) I took the test and passed them, because i wanted to graduate, still , never believed it, and when I was young my faith wasn't as strong as it is now, including one without the others is wrong, so I say again, how about making them electives. Evolution isn't something which one believes in?!?!? IT IS NOT A BELIEF. IT IS A SCIENCE, IT IS FACT. WHAT'S PROVEN IS PROVEN, AND WHAT ISN'T PROVEN, SIMPLY ISN'T. NOTHING TO BELIEVE IN!!! And that is why creationism is perverse, false, and a mischaracterization of reality. Creationism IS BASED on a litteral interpretation of the bible as the word of a particular god. THAT IS BELIEF, ... REQUIRING FAITH! Very distinct from scientific fact! So while beliefs are legitimate, they cannot be presented as facts. And while science is just as legitimate, IT CANNOT BE PRESENTED AS BELIEFS. As some often write on these forums: '... it just is what it is!!!...' evolution still requires one to believe in it or to have unquestionable faith in science, I, and I stress I dont No not really. You dont need to have faith to study, nor understand evolution. It's not a myth like Creationism is. All that requires is faith. I could tell you that a monster lives in my closet and how can you tell me that is not fact? Its the exact same premise. Evolution on the other hand has an overwhelming preponderance of factual and physical evidence. You cant even compare them. I'm really not trying or wanting to compare them. I try to look at them as separate, although I must admit that can be hard to do at times. Still say believe as one will, I'm not trying to swing anyone to my belief system. sharing my thoughts and beliefs as are all of us. Those who read all this stuff we put in here have to make their own minds up. Here is a suggestion 'sharpshooter', in the domain of your beliefs, go ahead and BELIEVE IN A CREATOR. In the domain of facts, simply study, understand and acknowledge (not believe) the facts which make-up evolution to this day. And leave the rest, up to God!!! How's that? NO more mind games. Belief and faith in their domain. And science and facts in its domain. Paradoxically, that is the only way they can co-exist. NO WAR NECESSARY!!! If the Pope, and the Catholic church got it quite a while back, and the Church of England gets it now, I'm sure we can all do a little 'stretch', and each get it for ourselves! How's that 'sharpsooter'? fine with me, didn't no we were at war. I also place no stock in what the pope says, not a catholic He is the leader of the largest group of Christians on the planet!!! Aren't you all christians??? What about th Church of England??? Christian also??? There are serious limitations to divisiveness. Christianity is of no value to any one is it is reduced to the religion oF 'ONE'!!! when did I say that I had all the answers

voileazur Joined Sun 03/11/07 Posts: 2140	Fri 09/19/08 01:55 PM
Why not have both in High School as seperate complete courses as Elective classes. Then you can choose which one or niether. I believe that would be fair and i would have no problem with..Shalom..Miles I tried that miles, didn't go over well, for some reason evolution can be taught but not the other, neither I believe can be taught completely, they should touch upon all beliefs and theories. CREATIONISM IS A BELIEF, NOT A SCIENCE. EVOLUTION IS A SCIENCE, NOT A BELIEF. There will never be any truth in attempting to mix both contexts and elements: representing 'creationism' as we know it, as science is never going to be true, and representing evolution as a 'belief' is, just as much, never going to be true. Unless we take this simple fact into consideration, as the Catholic Church and Church of England have, this conversation is condemned to go round and round in circle.

Krimsa Joined Fri 04/25/08 Posts: 9960	Fri 09/19/08 01:57 PM Edited by Krimsa on Fri 09/19/08 01:58 PM
I feel that all theories should be taught and let folks decide for themselves. If evolution and big bang are taught then so should creationism, does no good to teach one or the other without all sides being presented. Sharpshooter, With all due respect to you and your beliefs, creationism is not a scientific theory. One is participating in a perverse circus when carrying such falsehoods. I would easily give youthe benefit of the doubt, and suggest that you might not be doing it knowingly. Creationism is a perverse fundamentalist construction, based on nothing scientific and everything religious: the litteral interpretation of the bible, to fundamentalists denial of science in general, and evolution in particular. Creationism is perverse because it is nothing other than an 'edifice in denial'. It says nothing in itself, other than deny perversely and without foundation something which is founded and verifiable in our everyday life. The only academic forum where there might be a possibility to teach 'creationism', is the political science faculty where thecourse might be called 'THE ART OF DENIAL'. Unfortunately, denial has no relation whatsoever with pure sciences. If anything, science is counter denial. It often inderectly serves to 'debunk' prejudices, sclerosed thinking and denial. That is why it is perverse to keep pretending that the 'creationism: the art of denial' could ever be presented alongside any other scientific discipline. With all due respect, really! and with all due respect, evolution, to me, is not completely acceptable as well, I took the classes (because we were given no choice) I took the test and passed them, because i wanted to graduate, still , never believed it, and when I was young my faith wasn't as strong as it is now, including one without the others is wrong, so I say again, how about making them electives. Evolution isn't something which one believes in?!?!? IT IS NOT A BELIEF. IT IS A SCIENCE, IT IS FACT. WHAT'S PROVEN IS PROVEN, AND WHAT ISN'T PROVEN, SIMPLY ISN'T. NOTHING TO BELIEVE IN!!! And that is why creationism is perverse, false, and a mischaracterization of reality. Creationism IS BASED on a litteral interpretation of the bible as the word of a particular god. THAT IS BELIEF, ... REQUIRING FAITH! Very distinct from scientific fact! So while beliefs are legitimate, they cannot be presented as facts. And while science is just as legitimate, IT CANNOT BE PRESENTED AS BELIEFS. As some often write on these forums: '... it just is what it is!!!...' evolution still requires one to believe in it or to have unquestionable faith in science, I, and I stress I dont No not really. You dont need to have faith to study, nor understand evolution. It's not a myth like Creationism is. All that requires is faith. I could tell you that a monster lives in my closet and how can you tell me that is not fact? Its the exact same premise. Evolution on the other hand has an overwhelming preponderance of factual and physical evidence. You cant even compare them. I'm really not trying or wanting to compare them. I try to look at them as separate, although I must admit that can be hard to do at times. Still say believe as one will, I'm not trying to swing anyone to my belief system. sharing my thoughts and beliefs as are all of us. Those who read all this stuff we put in here have to make their own minds up. Here is a suggestion 'sharpshooter', in the domain of your beliefs, go ahead and BELIEVE IN A CREATOR. In the domain of facts, simply study, understand and acknowledge (not believe) the facts which make-up evolution to this day. And leave the rest, up to God!!! How's that? NO more mind games. Belief and faith in their domain. And science and facts in its domain. Paradoxically, that is the only way they can co-exist. NO WAR NECESSARY!!! If the Pope, and the Catholic church got it quite a while back, and the Church of England gets it now, I'm sure we can all do a little 'stretch', and each get it for ourselves! How's that 'sharpsooter'? fine with me, didn't no we were at war. I also place no stock in what the pope says, not a catholic He is the leader of the largest group of Christians on the planet!!! Aren't you all christians??? What about th Church of England??? Christian also??? There are serious limitations to divisiveness. Christianity is of no value to any one is it is reduced to the religion oF 'ONE'!!! You clearly haven't read many of my post, I can disagree with many so called pastors and theologians as well. Not because I think I am right and have all the answers, there should be no need for different denominations but there is, because of division, there are divisions among the scientist as well, it's no big deal There is supposed to be division amongst scientists. It is an inherent and necessary component. It is in part how they are capable of expanding their theories and reaching viable conclusions. They constantly argue and contradict one another. However you can either substantiate your theory or you cant. That is an integral element of the scientific method.

voileazur Joined Sun 03/11/07 Posts: 2140	Fri 09/19/08 01:58 PM
I feel that all theories should be taught and let folks decide for themselves. If evolution and big bang are taught then so should creationism, does no good to teach one or the other without all sides being presented. Sharpshooter, With all due respect to you and your beliefs, creationism is not a scientific theory. One is participating in a perverse circus when carrying such falsehoods. I would easily give youthe benefit of the doubt, and suggest that you might not be doing it knowingly. Creationism is a perverse fundamentalist construction, based on nothing scientific and everything religious: the litteral interpretation of the bible, to fundamentalists denial of science in general, and evolution in particular. Creationism is perverse because it is nothing other than an 'edifice in denial'. It says nothing in itself, other than deny perversely and without foundation something which is founded and verifiable in our everyday life. The only academic forum where there might be a possibility to teach 'creationism', is the political science faculty where thecourse might be called 'THE ART OF DENIAL'. Unfortunately, denial has no relation whatsoever with pure sciences. If anything, science is counter denial. It often inderectly serves to 'debunk' prejudices, sclerosed thinking and denial. That is why it is perverse to keep pretending that the 'creationism: the art of denial' could ever be presented alongside any other scientific discipline. With all due respect, really! and with all due respect, evolution, to me, is not completely acceptable as well, I took the classes (because we were given no choice) I took the test and passed them, because i wanted to graduate, still , never believed it, and when I was young my faith wasn't as strong as it is now, including one without the others is wrong, so I say again, how about making them electives. Evolution isn't something which one believes in?!?!? IT IS NOT A BELIEF. IT IS A SCIENCE, IT IS FACT. WHAT'S PROVEN IS PROVEN, AND WHAT ISN'T PROVEN, SIMPLY ISN'T. NOTHING TO BELIEVE IN!!! And that is why creationism is perverse, false, and a mischaracterization of reality. Creationism IS BASED on a litteral interpretation of the bible as the word of a particular god. THAT IS BELIEF, ... REQUIRING FAITH! Very distinct from scientific fact! So while beliefs are legitimate, they cannot be presented as facts. And while science is just as legitimate, IT CANNOT BE PRESENTED AS BELIEFS. As some often write on these forums: '... it just is what it is!!!...' evolution still requires one to believe in it or to have unquestionable faith in science, I, and I stress I dont No not really. You dont need to have faith to study, nor understand evolution. It's not a myth like Creationism is. All that requires is faith. I could tell you that a monster lives in my closet and how can you tell me that is not fact? Its the exact same premise. Evolution on the other hand has an overwhelming preponderance of factual and physical evidence. You cant even compare them. I'm really not trying or wanting to compare them. I try to look at them as separate, although I must admit that can be hard to do at times. Still say believe as one will, I'm not trying to swing anyone to my belief system. sharing my thoughts and beliefs as are all of us. Those who read all this stuff we put in here have to make their own minds up. Here is a suggestion 'sharpshooter', in the domain of your beliefs, go ahead and BELIEVE IN A CREATOR. In the domain of facts, simply study, understand and acknowledge (not believe) the facts which make-up evolution to this day. And leave the rest, up to God!!! How's that? NO more mind games. Belief and faith in their domain. And science and facts in its domain. Paradoxically, that is the only way they can co-exist. NO WAR NECESSARY!!! If the Pope, and the Catholic church got it quite a while back, and the Church of England gets it now, I'm sure we can all do a little 'stretch', and each get it for ourselves! How's that 'sharpsooter'? fine with me, didn't no we were at war. I also place no stock in what the pope says, not a catholic He is the leader of the largest group of Christians on the planet!!! Aren't you all christians??? What about th Church of England??? Christian also??? There are serious limitations to divisiveness. Christianity is of no value to any one is it is reduced to the religion oF 'ONE'!!! Don't care if it's the largest or smallest church, not a member, so I don't keep up with it, they do not speak for me, I am non denominational myself, my choice. Sorry!!! My apologies. I had assumed you were Christian!