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| Topic: did knowledge exist before God | |
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funch: sorry 'Chazster" I'm only going by the evidence ..since you cannot produce any shows where the ignorance actually stems from and why the conclusion has been reached that God is only capable of creating imperfection ... reply: i agree with you that god doesn't make perfect things - to do so would mean something other than god himself was perfect and that would go against all that is stated in the book about his character. he would not duplicate anything such as he was or is, that would go against his omniscience. there cannot be other things besides god that are perfect - otherwise by his own admission, he would not be god. "Tribo" can you explain why would a God have the "need" to create anything... perfect or imperfect |
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I would tend to agree. This thread seems to imply that there HAS to be some kind of intelligent life form akin to a "great Creatrix" that MUST possess knowledge in the same way man possesses knowledge and forethought. Its applying a legal definition in effect. I don't believe that the components that came together and allowed for the Big Bang to occur REQUIRED this knowledge. It was going to happen whether we like it or not because man would not exist for millions of years yet to come. There was no "thinking it over" or deciding the proper time and place. There was no pre-meditation involved. I am able to let go of that but I understand some are not. "Krimsa" the big bang theory is just that ..a theory ..you have yet to explain how the big bang took place without retaining the knowledge to accomplish it funches define your meaning of knowledge, till i know what your meaning it to be there can be no debate - i already stated what it means to me. "Tribo"... knowledge is the retaining and/or exchanging of that which may occur within a given reality |
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Edited by
tribo
on
Mon 09/01/08 06:05 PM
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I would tend to agree. This thread seems to imply that there HAS to be some kind of intelligent life form akin to a "great Creatrix" that MUST possess knowledge in the same way man possesses knowledge and forethought. Its applying a legal definition in effect. I don't believe that the components that came together and allowed for the Big Bang to occur REQUIRED this knowledge. It was going to happen whether we like it or not because man would not exist for millions of years yet to come. There was no "thinking it over" or deciding the proper time and place. There was no pre-meditation involved. I am able to let go of that but I understand some are not. "Krimsa" the big bang theory is just that ..a theory ..you have yet to explain how the big bang took place without retaining the knowledge to accomplish it funches define your meaning of knowledge, till i know what your meaning it to be there can be no debate - i already stated what it means to me. "Tribo"... knowledge is the retaining and/or exchanging of that which may occur within a given reality no those are actions one uses - that is not a definition of what "knowledge" is. i'm asking what is knowledge? an entity? or merely a word to describe the Actions of what one does with information, or other? to me it's sounds as if your trying to make knowledge into or mean that it is a stand alone entity or force that has existance in and of itself - no? then why do you state your question as you do? it sounds exactly like your asking about some sentient force that has the ability to exist on its own before anything including god exsisted. and - has some power to act on it's own. |
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funch: sorry 'Chazster" I'm only going by the evidence ..since you cannot produce any shows where the ignorance actually stems from and why the conclusion has been reached that God is only capable of creating imperfection ... reply: i agree with you that god doesn't make perfect things - to do so would mean something other than god himself was perfect and that would go against all that is stated in the book about his character. he would not duplicate anything such as he was or is, that would go against his omniscience. there cannot be other things besides god that are perfect - otherwise by his own admission, he would not be god. "Tribo" can you explain why would a God have the "need" to create anything... perfect or imperfect define "need" as to what your stating. |
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funch:
"Tribo" just as you ask me to find in the bible where it said that God was not infinite then you have to find where it says that God created the angels ....also the bible made no mentions of the existence of other dimensions .. that would be considered as being witch craft and delusion reply: as i said the proponent of the proof is on you first - you show me the answer - i'll show you mine - otherwise there is no point. funch: infinite is a term used to describe the vastness of a given reality but doesn't mean that reality is actually infinite ...infinity stops once you reach the end reply:   ohhhhh - thats a tear jerker hahaha you got to give me your source for that definition "infinity stops once you reach the end" your something else funch - |
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Because honestly, I don't believe you would have needed knowledge in order for the Big Bang to occur. Then "Krimsa" explain how the big band occured without the knowledge to occur even as you say that the universe expanded from a "primordial hot and dense initial condition" then explain how something can be hot or become hot without the knowledge or rules that produces something to become hot ... didn't man use that same knowledge to produce a thermo-nuclear explosion just like the big bang This makes no sense, atoms bond and become molecules but they have no knowledge of how to do this. They don't have a consciousness and so don't have the capacity for knowledge. The same goes for energy and matter in the big bang theory. "Chazster" if atoms lack knowledge then how do they bond and become molecules ..do little elves glue them together...you keep assuming that knowledge takes consciousness .. Wow you are smart. Gravity doesn't work because it "knows how". Atoms from molecules because the electric charges are trying to become stable. It is not that a positive ion says "hey I am supposed to go meet at negative ion" so "Chazster" can you explain how all these events are taking place since no consciousness or knowledge is present ..or do these events only take place when you show up ... yes, its laws of nature, knowledge has nothing to do with it. Gravity is just a force. No knowledge involved. |
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the question wasn't how many knowledges existed before god, it asked if knowledge existed before God? reply: then the answer is no. Yes, but at the same time I stated God was always there and he said he was not trying to deny that. Thus I said if God was always there then there is no "before God" so the question is moot. i agree it's moot, i was simply replying t the last part of the original question of the post - again - "it asked if knowledge existed before God? the answer is no.  hey "Chazster and "Tribo" just because you say the question is moot doesn't make it so ...that's how Pantheists think ...you have to explain rational why it's moot ..so come on and get those lazy brains to working I like how you quote my rational and then ignore it. I said God always existed. You told me that you didn't deny it. So if God always existed, then there was never a "before God." If there was a never "before God" then knowledge could not exist "before God". |
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Edited by
Linnie
on
Mon 09/01/08 07:20 PM
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God says, "I am the Alpha and the Omega; I am the Beginning and the End" There is some very interesting research that was done using word written in the book of Genesis by Dr. Bogue of Dallas, Texas. He is a world renown scientist who now has a museum of how Earth was created. It is called the "Creation Model" and the museum is in Dallas, TX. It took Dr. Bogue 30 years of research to make his discovery of how God (using the Holy Spirit) created Earth. It is fascinating and there are other world quantum scientist who tried to disprove Dr. Bogue's findings...and they could not. I found Dr. Bogue's findings most valuable! And, just another thought. God only gave we as humans just a very minute amount of knowledge compared to His. We as humans can only think in the finite...not in the eternal, (forever He has exited...time is of no essence.) .
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Edited by
tribo
on
Mon 09/01/08 07:44 PM
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God says, "I am the Alpha and the Omega; I am the Beginning and the End" There is some very interesting research that was done using word written in the book of Genesis by Dr. Bogue of Dallas, Texas. He is a world renown scientist who now has a museum of how Earth was created. It is called the "Creation Model" and the museum is in Dallas, TX. It took Dr. Bogue 30 years of research to make his discovery of how God (using the Holy Spirit) created Earth. It is fascinating and there are other world quantum scientist who tried to disprove Dr. Bogue's findings...and they could not. I found Dr. Bogue's findings most valuable! And, just another thought. God only gave we as humans just a very minute amount of knowledge compared to His. We as humans can only think in the finite...not in the eternal, (forever He has exited...time is of no essence.) . is god then not stating he is not eternal: "I am the Alpha and the Omega; I am the Beginning and the End" either he has no beginning or end and is therefore infinite or eternal or he isn't - which is it? |
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God says, "I am the Alpha and the Omega; I am the Beginning and the End" There is some very interesting research that was done using word written in the book of Genesis by Dr. Bogue of Dallas, Texas. He is a world renown scientist who now has a museum of how Earth was created. It is called the "Creation Model" and the museum is in Dallas, TX. It took Dr. Bogue 30 years of research to make his discovery of how God (using the Holy Spirit) created Earth. It is fascinating and there are other world quantum scientist who tried to disprove Dr. Bogue's findings...and they could not. I found Dr. Bogue's findings most valuable! And, just another thought. God only gave we as humans just a very minute amount of knowledge compared to His. We as humans can only think in the finite...not in the eternal, (forever He has exited...time is of no essence.) . is god then not stating he is not eternal: "I am the Alpha and the Omega; I am the Beginning and the End" either he has no beginning or end and is therefore infinite or eternal or he isn't - which is it? Maybe he means the beginning and end of the material world? Just a thought. |
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Edited by
tribo
on
Mon 09/01/08 08:33 PM
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God says, "I am the Alpha and the Omega; I am the Beginning and the End" There is some very interesting research that was done using word written in the book of Genesis by Dr. Bogue of Dallas, Texas. He is a world renown scientist who now has a museum of how Earth was created. It is called the "Creation Model" and the museum is in Dallas, TX. It took Dr. Bogue 30 years of research to make his discovery of how God (using the Holy Spirit) created Earth. It is fascinating and there are other world quantum scientist who tried to disprove Dr. Bogue's findings...and they could not. I found Dr. Bogue's findings most valuable! And, just another thought. God only gave we as humans just a very minute amount of knowledge compared to His. We as humans can only think in the finite...not in the eternal, (forever He has exited...time is of no essence.) . is god then not stating he is not eternal: "I am the Alpha and the Omega; I am the Beginning and the End" either he has no beginning or end and is therefore infinite or eternal or he isn't - which is it? Maybe he means the beginning and end of the material world? Just a thought. no chaz he's making a duel statement first he say the beginning and the end, then he says - "We as humans can only think in the finite...not in the eternal, (>>>>forever He has exited<<<<...time is of no essence.) . so either make up your mind or don't post meanings that have a duality to them. he's either infinite/eternal/everlasting/is,was,and always will be - or - he has a beginning and end. |
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the bible does not make mention of many things being created funch, it is implied in the words he created the heavens, it does not go on to say he created galaxies,black holes, etc, it implies he created "all" things that exist.That wolud include angels other heavens or other dimensions, etc. "Tribo" just as you ask me to find in the bible where it said that God was not infinite then you have to find where it says that God created the angels ....also the bible made no mentions of the existence of other dimensions .. that would be considered as being witch craft and delusion Psalm 148 beginning in verse 2 "Praise him, all his angels, praise him all his heavenly hosts. Praise him, sun, and moon, praise him, all you shining stars. Praise him, you highest heavens and you waters above the skies. Let them praise the name of the Lord, for he commanded and they were created." All references to things created. |
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funches define your meaning of knowledge, till i know what your meaning it to be there can be no debate - i already stated what it means to me. "Tribo"... knowledge is the retaining and/or exchanging of that which may occur within a given reality no those are actions one uses - that is not a definition of what "knowledge" action is actually the "exchanging" of knowledge that was once "retained" ...because no action can take place without the knowledge existing beforehand to allow it take place ..you couldn't walk or talk or breath or eat or do anything without that knowledge already existing .. my definition of knowledge applies to everything in existence because nothing conscious organic inorganic or spiritual can take any action or be set into action unless it can retain or exchange the information needed to execute that action "Tribo"...my definition of knowledge is probably the most perfect you will ever come across because it can not be disputed logically |
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the bible does not make mention of many things being created funch, it is implied in the words he created the heavens, it does not go on to say he created galaxies,black holes, etc, it implies he created "all" things that exist.That wolud include angels other heavens or other dimensions, etc. "Tribo" just as you ask me to find in the bible where it said that God was not infinite then you have to find where it says that God created the angels ....also the bible made no mentions of the existence of other dimensions .. that would be considered as being witch craft and delusion Psalm 148 beginning in verse 2 "Praise him, all his angels, praise him all his heavenly hosts. Praise him, sun, and moon, praise him, all you shining stars. Praise him, you highest heavens and you waters above the skies. Let them praise the name of the Lord, for he commanded and they were created." All references to things created. That means nothing to someone who is not a Christian however. What about the secular issue of the Big Bang? I don't feel that required knowledge by anything or anyone because there was no one. |
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funch: sorry 'Chazster" I'm only going by the evidence ..since you cannot produce any shows where the ignorance actually stems from and why the conclusion has been reached that God is only capable of creating imperfection ... reply: i agree with you that god doesn't make perfect things - to do so would mean something other than god himself was perfect and that would go against all that is stated in the book about his character. he would not duplicate anything such as he was or is, that would go against his omniscience. there cannot be other things besides god that are perfect - otherwise by his own admission, he would not be god. "Tribo" can you explain why would a God have the "need" to create anything... perfect or imperfect define "need" as to what your stating. "need".....to fill a void |
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as i said the proponent of the proof is on you first - you show me the answer - i'll show you mine - otherwise there is no point. "Tribo" ..you can't show me yours because it is simply not in the bible that God create other Dimensions .. you mistaken the old testament for the bible of scientology funch: infinite is a term used to describe the vastness of a given reality but doesn't mean that reality is actually infinite ...infinity stops once you reach the end reply: ohhhhh - thats a tear jerker hahaha you got to give me your source for that definition "infinity stops once you reach the end" your something else funch - "Tribo" ..then name one thing that "exist in reality" that you know for a fact that is infinite |
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yes, its laws of nature, knowledge has nothing to do with it. Gravity is just a force. No knowledge involved. "Chazster" how can nature have laws if it has no knowledge also if it takes no knowledge ..then explain how Man use the knowledge of gravity to reproduce it's effects ... according to you the information retain in producting gravity didn't exist until the apple hit Newton on the noggin |
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I like how you quote my rational and then ignore it. I said God always existed. You told me that you didn't deny it. So if God always existed, then there was never a "before God." If there was a never "before God" then knowledge could not exist "before God". "Chazster" it was you that is trying to equate knowledge with consciousness ..therefore knowledge had to exist before God to induce him into consciousness .. in other words knowledge gave God his first thought |
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God says, "I am the Alpha and the Omega; I am the Beginning and the End" There is some very interesting research that was done using word written in the book of Genesis by Dr. Bogue of Dallas, Texas. He is a world renown scientist who now has a museum of how Earth was created. It is called the "Creation Model" and the museum is in Dallas, TX. It took Dr. Bogue 30 years of research to make his discovery of how God (using the Holy Spirit) created Earth. It is fascinating and there are other world quantum scientist who tried to disprove Dr. Bogue's findings...and they could not. I found Dr. Bogue's findings most valuable! And, just another thought. God only gave we as humans just a very minute amount of knowledge compared to His. We as humans can only think in the finite...not in the eternal, (forever He has exited...time is of no essence.) . "Linnie" it's nothing the Holy Spirit can do that Man won't be able to do with the use of technology ...technology will replace all notions of God ...God uses the holy spirit as a power source and that is what Man will do with technology |
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is god then not stating he is not eternal: "I am the Alpha and the Omega; I am the Beginning and the End" either he has no beginning or end and is therefore infinite or eternal or he isn't - which is it? "Tribo" ...God beginning may be his beginning and may only apply to his first consciouness ..so it doesn't mean there are not other existences beyond God ..they simple may be to advance for God to comprehend their existence |
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