guess you'retired of talking about that, huh.

who's tired?

Ohhhh! Noooo! guys! Please! don't start with that stuff. One conspiracy
at a time please.

And I thought I was going to get away from that stuff. Oh well.

I hate arguing politics!

there ain't nothing wrong with talking about it. i'm not saying anything
related to a conspiracy theory either. they had the reports and they may
have not been able to substantiate it. i'm not saying they just let it
happen though. it all has to do with hindsight because it's always
different when you already know what happened and you can look back on
it....that's kinda how i look at karma too lol.

things that are not actually connected have a tendency to look connected
in hind sight

I find a lot of those 9/11 conspiracy forums on other sites are usually
started by some Arab guy. That tells me right away that's there
something wrong with their theory. They either hate us or they are
trying to take the heat off of them. The first time I encountered a 9/11
conspiracy forum was it said: What if 9/11 didn't involve Arabs. Now I
got to thinking that they were saying that 9/11 (hypothetically) was
caused by a group of Anti-government, like the ones who blewup the
federal blding in Oklahoma. But to my surprise. It turned out to be
about how the Bush Admin. was behind that. Well, let me tell you, I was
shocked that anyone would try to suggest that. I started to think it was
a big joke. Then they started to try to recruit me, but of course I
didn't want any part of it. So I tried to post in there but they either
edited my posts to make me look bad or they would just delete them all
to get there. What is even scarier is that the Leader seems to be like a
cult leader of sorts. If anyone tries to disagree with him, he tries to
discredit you. Thankfully though, most ppl on that site don't like him
and stay away from his forum. I wished someone would have warned me
about him. But anyways, I found another site(dating one) where the same
thing and you guest it, another thread about 9/11 conspiracy was the
topic( by another Arab.) Hummm. there seems to be a pattern here. Well,
to make along story short, That thread wound up being stooped by the
Admin. cause of the comments and arguing in there. Listen. You can
believe what you want about 9/11. But my stance is if you believe that
conspirocy stuff, then I would suggest someone try and tell that to the
people who lost a love one and or a fireman, EMT that lost someone in
that tragety. I would hate to see how they would react to someone
telling them that 9/11 was a conspirocy. I'm not trying to start
something here, this was just my experience about 9/11 theory that I
came accross, that's all.

Ghostrecon

ok..1st off. I think it's obvious I'm not an arab..2nd it wouldn't be
the 1st time in US history that a president had advanced knowledge of an
attack on the homeland and did nothing to prevent it...how do think the
families of all those soldiers, sailors, doctors and nurses that died at
Pearl Harbour would have reacted if, 5 years later someone told them
they were sacrificed to give the US an excuse to go to war? how about
telling that to the survivors?..and yet that is EXACTLY what
happened...the British admiralty had cracked the Japanese naval codes
and had given Roosevelt a GOOD 7 weeks advanced warning of the attack..
I mean, don't you find it just a little odd that the entire pacific
fleet was anchored at Pearl...EXCEPT the most important ships in the
fleet..the aircraft carriers?..the US had 3 of them in the pacific but
oddly none of them were at Pearl...and you know why? cuz Roosevelt and
the American admiralty KNEW they would be needed to be able to
successfully go to war in the Pacific.
Quite frankly, I think Dubya is a power hungry, mentally unbalanced
little chimp of a war monger. I wouldn't put anything.. I repeat
ANYTHING past him and his cronies..the Muslims aren't the only religion
with fundamental extremists, and their countries aren't the only ones
that have them in offices of power.

"how do think the
families of all those soldiers, sailors, doctors and nurses that died at
Pearl Harbour would have reacted if, 5 years later someone told them
they were sacrificed to give the US an excuse to go to war?"

There is no proof beyond a shadow of a doubt of that claim any more then
there is a conspiracy of 9/11. why not say that the Civil war was a
conspiracy by Aliens too. That at least makes more sence.LOL

I would suggest you tell that to all the survivors of the pearl harbor
attack and see if they don't swing at you for disrespect. Go ahead, go
to the soldier that plays the taps at pearl harbor everyday who was a
survivor and tell him your claim. I dear you.

Good luck.

Ghostrecon

it is a fact that they knew before hand that an attack was planned,
there's just controversy over what the time frame is. animal is right
about when they intercepted the japaneese transmission but it took time
for them to crack it and they said that they tried to call it in to warn
the pearl harbor fleet but the radio man was not at his post for some
reason and did not get back to his post because the attack started later
that morning. that kinda stuff is always gonna draw the theories because
it leaves too much room to speculate "what ifs". the same thing happened
when the US took over a major stronghold on the german front that led to
their defeat. supposedly the us surprised them where they weren't
supposed to be and the US forces were spotted but when the radioman sent
the message hitler was asleep and they were scared to wake him and the
person in charge at that particular post could not or did not make the
decision for some reason, i just i could remember what part they were in
when this happened.

I'm confused. It sees first you are agreeing with Pubic, but also you
aren't.

So how does that show Franklin knew about the Pearl Harbor attack and
did nothing to warn Hawaii so he could get us involved in WWII. It seems
you are saying the code breakers got the message but didn't decipher it
in time to warn anyone about the attack. There fore I don't see any
conspiracy to get us involved.

Public

You may not be Arab, but I never said all Arabs are involved in the
9/11 conspiracy theory. But it seems a good amount of those theorists
are of Arab decent from my experience in other sites. But I do believe
there's also a good element of liberals who are also hopping on the
conspiracy thing too. Which IMHO is just a political way to bash Bush. I
am not necessary a Bush supporter but not a hater either. I can't
conceive of anyone, no matter how much you hate them, could devise or
even allow such a devious attack and not try to stop it. It's funny how
the Bush bashers call Bush an idiot, but also claim he master minded
this whole thing. Hummm.. maybe he had aliens to help him. After all
there is a theory that aliens helped the Egyptians make the Pyramids.

Ghostrecon

No Ghost..you ARE wrong..the evidence that Roosevelt knew the Japanese
were coming is incontravertable...and yes King, the US cracked the
Japanese naval code but too late to really do much about it..but the
British had cracked it months before and had known of the impending
attack on Pearl and had warned the US weeks before..the evidence IS
there and it's not just a theory, there is hard proof of it. How do I
know this? I'm a WW2 historian, I've seen documents while I was over in
England that shows the communique to the US about Pearl. I'm sorry but
it's impossible for me to deny what I've seen with my own eyes.
And King...I think you're referring to the ruse the Allies used to make
the Germans think the invasion would be in the Pas de Calais, directly
across from Dover. When the Combined Atlantic Fleet showed up off
Normandy, and the Generals tried to call Hitler, his staff refused to
wake him because of the "confidence" the German Army staff that the real
attack would be in the Pas de Calais...even after Hitler was woke up he
refused to move troops to Normandy because he thot it was just a feint.
This, however was not a case of Hitler intentionally sacrificing his
troops, it was a case of being bull-dogged real good by the Allies and
rigid thinking on Hitler's part AND the fact that he didn't have the
ability to think beyond the obvious. He was stuck on the thot that any
invading army would require ports, plus it's only something like 20
miles from the Port of Dover to Calais. He never dreamed that the Allies
would bring their own ports with them.
Ok that's the end of todays history lesson lol...and fyi I am NOT a
conspiracy theorist nor do I get tangled up in them, but I DO recognize
proof when I see it... if I offended anyone I'm sorry but sometimes the
truth is uglier than lies.

You may be a Historian but I'm sure there are historians out there who
can refute your claim. So that being said, I think that disqualifies you
and them as you both have your own agenda. I have come to the conclusion
that much of history is clouded by ones own agenda IMHO.

Much is the same with science and religion. Both claim to be the truth.

So your claim really proves nothing, IMHO.

And I doubt you can prove it. It's all in one's belief.

So let me see. How many other historical events can be conspiracy
theories. Maybe George Washington was gay, and Samuel Adams was really
Samantha Adams.LOL

Ghostrecon

so then what you are saying is..the British admiralty told Roosevelt
about the impending attack AFTER it happened and then pre-dated the
document I HAVE seen to make it look like they sent it weeks in
advance..now THAT'S a conspiracy theory if I ever heard one lmao...also
I have NO agenda, I have nothing to gain or lose because of this
knowledge but there is a BIG difference between patriotism and being
naive...see the problem with history is, it's usually the winners that
write it..and they ain't gonna tell you anything that they don't want
you to know about, so to truly understand history, one has to dig
beneath the "facts" that are presented. Let me try and put this in some
perspective. The Japanese Naval code was broken by the British, the US
finally cracked it a short time later. NOW, if Roosevelt had acted on
the info from Britain and pulled their fleet out of Pearl, the Japanese
would have surmised their Naval code was cracked and changed it..now,
all that time and effort and resources to crack the code would have been
for naught. I'll give you an example that is not US based. At one point
during WW2 the Brits cracked the Luftwaffe's code and the info they had
was a big raid on Coventry. Instead of using everything they had to
blunt the attack, Churchill decided to sacrifice the city to keep secret
the fact they had broken the code. This is a fact, and it wasn't a
military base that got hit but a mainly civilian population. The fact
is, in time of war, somtimes horrendous sacrifices have to be made for
the greater good. Thusly, I don't believe for one minute that the
decision to sacrifice the Pacific Fleet(minus the carriers of course)
was a glib one. I firmly believe Roosevelt agonized over his decision
and finally decided to exchange one defeat for total, ultimate victory.
The ability to read the Japanese naval cyphers allowed the US to sweep
the Japanese fleet from the Pacific. The real turning point was the
Battle of Midway. If Roosevelt had played his hand and tried to prevent
Pearl Harbour, the Japanese would have changed their cyphers and the
outcome at Midway would likely have been a lot different. The problem
with the conspiracy theorists is they try to paint Roosevelt in a bad
light over Pearl Harbour. Quite the opposite, Roosevelt had to make a
very difficult decision every commander has to make in time of war,
who's turn is it to die. The decision to sacrifice the fleet at Pearl
was a strictly military one.
Churchill said, "In times of war, the truth is so precious it must be
jealously watched over by a body guard of lies."
The other thing is in war, the ability to read the other sides
communiques is just about the most important facet to victory, and when
you gain that ability, it's very important NOT to tip yer hand too
early. Roosevelt did what he felt was necessary to ensure that they
would still be able to read the Japanese cyphers when it REALLY
mattered. Why do you think the carriers were NOT tied up at Pearl with
the rest of the fleet? Because they ARE the backbone of any naval fleet.
It WAS those three carriers that weren't at Pearl that were the cause of
the change in fortunes in the Pacific war.