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hey 4fun, i thought you said fuck this topic lol

i did!!! lol. whatzup?????????? breeze?

why in the world the hornets nest? and i thought biblical discussions
caused this. the ? R U "WILLING" TO GIVE UP "SOME" FREEDOM TO JUST FEEL
SAFER? why get in this HUGE debate over a simple question; that has a
simple answer! yes, i would be willing to give up some freedom to feel
safer, but, doesn't mean that i have to give it all away. if it come
down to it hell yeah i'll kill and kick some ass just to defend and
protect my family. but, then again no matter which way u look at it, it
wont ever be safer. i'd like to think that it would though. theres
always going to be wars and evil in general will always run havoic
across the world. y, because of simple misunderstandings as this. no one
here is knocking our goverment even though we have our own opinions of
the matter, no one is saying that this is wrong or right, it is just
that a discussion. so, there's no need in getting ur panties all in wad.
were not here to offend anyone and vise versa. i strongely believe in
what our brave men are doing and for the cause of it. i don't knock bush
either, he's just a man with a title! and does the best HE can do. no
one can ever win every battle. so, y judge someone for things that they
can't control. it's ridiculous! i mean come people, this right here is
why we can't trully become one nation, given that everyone has an
opinion and a different way of looking at things, we will never be what
we pose ourselves to be! that's y we have(the entire continent of
america, north and south) become the island of misfits. we don't have
proper order, maybe we should take i second look at these 3rd world
countries and really learn something from them instead of ramming our
beliefs down their throats! Peace out!

ty myndlash, that was the basis behind the discussion. i don't think we
should be subjected to the invasion of privacy based on the idea that it
is happening because of fear because it won't make us safer just make us
FEEL safer. alot of people don't take the time to understand the
question because it is an emotional topic and they let the emotions take
over their mind.

Hi breeze

Sorry I haven't gotten back to you earlier,been busy.

Also sorry I am not understanding your last post( I guess I'm having a
brain fart or something). I believe your post to me said something about
I answered my own reason as to why we should leave Iraq. If you could
please cut & past the part in my post of what you mean by this. Thanks.

I am just guessing now as to what you mean. does it have something to do
with the fact that there is so much chaos in Iraq that you feel we
should pull out. Correct me if I am wrong about this.

I'll just answer that. To me, this is why we should ultimately stay
there until it becomes stable or at least feel that the new Iraqi army
can handle it on their own. Unfortunately though I feel that the Iraqi
army will never be able to handle this for the reason that they have
never been able to fight a conventional war. But what they are facing is
no conventional war, but an urban war of attrition. In a way this could
be seen as what went on in Vietnam when we tried to train the South
Vietnam army to fight on their own, but for some reason they were unable
to do this. That could have been due to a lack of training, not enough
support, too much dependence on the US, no real will to actually fight.
Or all of the above.

I guess my point is that the issue isn't whether we should have or not
have gone into Iraq but now that we are there, we need to find a way to
deal with this problem rather then packup and leave. I understand it is
easier to leave rather then deal with the problem but nothing in life is
easy anyways.

I hope I am not trying to incite an argument as I view this merely as a
healthy discussion.

Peace.

Ghostrecon

what up recon, no worries man. i'm easygoing and don't get up set over
things like this, thanks for discussing it without just saying F.U. lol.
the only thing i meant by the remark of,"i think you just answered
your own question" is that if we train and arm a country that we were
just in a war with, what are you gonna expect.
as for the rest i completely agree with you. we seem to have a
difference of opinion on whether or not we should have been involved in
a war with them but once we were there we have to see it through and
they made it so that we aren't ever going to be able to leave when they
made it about iraqi freedom. if it had just been a war like when it
started we should have never paid to rebuild their cities or train the
army and just left but they made it about freedom and stabilizing iraq
so we can't leave now. this thing is going to drag on for years but as
when is it actually going to be a good time to leave, noone knows.
technically the war is over and we are still there because they are not
strong enough to resist an enemy attack on their own but i didn't see
them trying to hard the first couple times they assembled a police force
and an army, most of them deserted.

the whole thing goes back to the 4 original reasons we were given by the
government to go to war with iraq. none of them were true and everytime
one was disproved they gave us a new one til it stuck, now we're stuck.
this thing didn't start out about iraqi freedom but when that became the
reason they signed us up for a lifetime of babysitting and endless
endangerment of military lives because they didn't know what other
excuse to give. that region will never be stable and we aren't ever
going to reclaim those troops from that region. alot of companies just
found themselves a permanent home because of the way this was handled.

I read this topic last night and it got me to thinking. Why are we so
worried about phone tapping when we've already had our privacy invaded
and rights hi-jacked so much already?

I mean like, our mail is already scanned, cameras are EVERYWHERE,
personal information is up for grabs by anyone, property can be taken
away from us at any time if the goverment deems fit and that's just a
start. We have freedom of speech, but only so far and only in certain
places, like miles away from where Bush speaks. There's freedom of the
press, as long as the goverment doesn't deem it dangerous to their catch
all ambigious blanket of "national security". And don't get me started
on the right to bear arms issue...

I have nothing to hide, but on principal I am against phone tapping,
just like I'm against any other loss, reduction or limitation of our
rights as American tax paying citizens. Like its been said before...We
can't just keep accepting our rights are acceptable "collateral damage"
in the war against terrorism. We're at war to protect our freedom
against terrorist, yet we're supposed to think its OK to hand over those
rights to the goverment?

I think not.

The ironic thing is that as we continually lose more and more of our
freedoms as acceptablle losses in the war on terrorism? More and more
Americans will get fed up and begin to protest and consider themselves
revolutionaries fighting to protect our rights and freedoms, while the
goverment will in turn lable them as terrorists as well. -=x

OHH OUUUCH, thankyou for the comment full metal. that is exactly what i
was thinking. i just don't think we should be so quick to hand stuff
over. the government is supposed to represent us and we have these
liberties for a reason and if we keep giving them away we won't have any
left and then the government will be ruling us and not just
representing.

Uh yes,

Thank you breeze for your understanding on this matter. I too would not
like to see this discussion degrade into a back and forth on I'm right
and your wrong sort of bantering. I think it doesn't do anything but
cause a lot of useless effort on both of us. With that said. This kind
of topic will probably be discussed thoughtout the ages. The thought of
the pervertible society like the George Orwell's 1984 Big Brother
doesn't really sit well with me. But so is the thought of our country
being under constant attack by terrorist as in Israel don't sit well
with me either. I am in somewhat of a conflict as to which of the two
societies I could adapt to live in. In other words which of the two
evils would one take. I just think I could probably feel more safe under
Big Brother then walk out my door and head to work wondering if I will
be able to go home that evening in one piece and not fear of having a
snack in a cafe and wonder if the guy who just walked in is going to
blow himself up. Someone may find this probably foolish but I say, tell
that to an Israeli who have to live with that fear everyday. I kind of
aquatint those individuals who just blow themselves up in a cafe much
like those people who are mentally deranged who possess fire arms to do
harm. They just do it under different motivations. The mentally ill do
it because they feel they have no other alternative or feel wronged by
society much like those terrorist who try to get back at the West for
generations of repression, Think about it this way if you lived in
squaller all of your life and believe that you will become a martyr for
sacrificing yourself for a greater common good. That is very tempting.
What our society needs to do is change their way of thinking about their
actions and to do so there has to be a change in our attitude of other
cultures. But that may be too simplistic. As was said the hatred goes
back many generations and maybe this is what is meant by the sins of our
fathers. We are paying for their sins.

i completely understand recon, i just thought it would be interesting to
hear some of the opinions on the topic but i don't think that i
communicated it very well. the US is a country built on freedoms and how
we fought and died to get them and i was just wondering how many people
are willing to fight and die to keep them. the key part to the topic was
the FEEL part because i don't believe that any of it actually makes it
safer it just make it FEEL safer and the answer that i mostly got from
people is that they are willing to hand them over for promised safety
that cannot be promised. i am not the type of person that would do that
and i don't think that we should give the things that our ancestors died
for and handed to us with their blood on them without fighting for them.
if they are taken from us then our blood should be on them as well.
i respect your opinion and i appreciate the input, have a good night man

WELL ME PERSONALLY YES I WOULD GIVE UP A BIT OF FREEDOM FOR SAFETY,I
COME FROM A NAVY FAMILY..EACH OF MY FOREFATHERS FOUGHT FOR OUR
FREEDOM,AND WHEN DIMEBAG GOT SHOT,IT WOULD HAVE NEVER HAPPENED IF THERE
WHERE METAL DETECTORS AT THAT CONCERT,NOW WHEN I GO SEE A SHOW THERE ARE
METAL DETECTORS AND SECURITY GAURDS PAT YOU DOWN ITS FINE WITH ME IF IT
SAVES THE LIFE OF ANOTHER ARTIST I LOVE.

I agree, Panterafan! It's fuckin' senseless that somebody would kill
anybody without good reason, especially Dimebag or any other artist for
that matter!! Of course, it could happen to anybody within music or
acting or whatever.Ya know?

To all who are for wiretaps, I say this..... if you want your personal
business to become public, get yourself 1 of 2 things:

1. a reality show or
2. a nosy neighbor


or in my case, like everybody else


3. tell your personal biz to a beloved family
member who LOVES to gossip.

The federal government and its officials have NO right to listen to our
conversations about ANYTHING. If they wanna know how we feel on ceratain
things, then they should what everybody else in america does every
single day: pick up the phone and dial a number. It's as simple as that.

i'm not talking about security measures like metal detectors and such.
i'm talking about inconveniences, i'm talking about losing freedoms.
wiretaps without a warrant, government abductions and torture without
evidence, false imprisonment and denial of due process. those are some
of the FREEDOMS i'm talking abou, not some pittly ass metal detector and
long lines at the fuckin airport.

Correct me if I'm wrong KB, but aren't the wire taps supposed to be used
only on suppected terroists? If by utilizing wire taps we were able to
avoid another 9/11 would that change your opinion at all?

J

no it wouldn't change my mind at all. what is so hard at obtaining a
warrant for a wiretap on a terrorist, they had one for me and i didn't
do anything wrong. it's not hard for them to get one and the
intelligence they have should be keeping them prepared for whose phone
they want to tap. watch, if they get the bill approved you are going to
see more people than ever(with no ties to terrorism whatsoever)having
their phones tapped and it will eventually be used as a precedent. when
it keeps snowballing to something you don't want to lose you won't have
a say in it anymore. death and terrorist attacks are unfortunately a
part of this world and i ain't giving up my freedoms because someone
else is scared. the government is not some good and righteous entity and
they make mistakes all the time. the problem is when they make them they
don't want to admit them and they get covered up. have your phone tapped
for a year and realize it and realize that you are also being followed
for a year only you know that you didn't do anything wrong, it gets old
after awhile and that is not even the part you should be worried about
the most. two guys were held in michigan were held without due process
stemming from this bullshit and it turned out the government made a
mistake so instead of apologizing to them they still tried to charge
them with some bullshit so that they wouldn't look completely wrong,
what if that was you and you were arrested and held without due process
and restricted from your family and it got out that you were involved
with terrorism(which you aren't). that don't just hold these people for
a couple of days you know and i doubt you'd have a job when you got out,
how you gonna take care of your kids? would you give up all of that so
someone could just feel safer and not actually be safer?

it's always easy to say you don't mind because you aren't doing anything
wrong but you have to put yourself in the shoes of the people who are
wrongly accused and defend the freedoms that we fought to establish this
country on. i come from a family of marines and they didn't die so that
this government could walk on our freedoms in the name of security,
that's what wars are for. allowing this to continue will keep taking us
one step closer to the type of totalitarianism that my family was in
those wars to prevent. there is no difference in whether it is our own
country that does it or another country. i am not anti government but if
you let them rule you with fear, you are going to start to see what real
fear is.

well i have to put my 2sence in here to king i totaly agree with you.
And jane i dont hate you i'm sorry you'r so missinformed. one thing i
got to say is you cant give any one freedom thay have to earn it. and
our childern dying there is abunch of shit i would never allow my son to
go there if i have to send him out of the country. dont get me rong if
it was war against usa i would have my gun loaded and be ready. but not
for a country thats fighting against it's self.What if another country
helped the south when we had our cival war would we still have slaves.
the war in irak did nothing for them or us but get our childern killed
i'm totaly against that.i am surprised there are so many ppl here that
are so missinformed and brain washed.