This one slays me. Pardon the use of the Christian terminology. The last time I looked, it was the Catholics who seem to feel that suicide is a sin (under any circumstance) so that would include all of the life circumstances that you have listed. That means, sir, if you are a practicing Catholic and you choose to take your own life, by the belief in this religion, you have doomed yourself to purgatory, or at least denied passage through the pearly gates presumably. So no sitting in clouds for all eternity with your godhead and no wearing wings, nor flowing gowns.

Now lets clarify something else shall we, the belief in reincarnation is found throughout many religions worldwide. Not all pagans believe in it, yet many do. The specifics might vary. The word reincarnation itself means, "To be made flesh again". If we were to focus on Wicca in particular, generally there is a belief held in "rebirth" through the mother which would be the Earth or Gaia. She takes in all of her children at the time of their death, animal, human, insect, all living creatures. In a sense she "devours" them and then gives birth to them once again. It is an endless cycle. Now I have explained this using the most basic of terms. Just to clarify your preconceived notions and assumptions. I seek not to argue, simply to give you a better understanding.

Spider, that is simply repeating yourself. If you can debate it, go ahead.

Well since you are both going to attempt to “tag team" me now, there is no point in using quotations. Eljay, you know where I stand. You can scroll up and read where I have given supportive evidence for my definition of the word "unclean" as it was used in Leviticus. Not to mention that you never could even bring a substantial argument against any other issue raised in the verse. The word “unclean” you simply latched onto. The entire passage is quite direct in its intentions and what is now expected of these people and how birth is to be handled. Why was the time twice as long for atonement if she had given birth to a female child? Why was there now a cleansing ritual to be performed by a priest? Why was childbirth now to be considered a sin? Why were women unable to touch any "holy" objects until this ritual was completed (and paid for)? If it looks like a duck, walks like a duck, and quacks like a duck...its probably an irate male god who does not wish to share the lime light with human women on Earth anymore due to the fact that he supposedly is the creator of all life now. Why would it surprise you that these early peoples would have questioned this? Why does it surprise you now that many of us question it?

that has yelled, (used caps)

But then as we know already, Spider makes up rules as he goes along.

I stated three obvious contradictions, and they were not knocked down by fact, conjecture was used.

But when conjecture is used for the rebuttal, Spider throws out the argument.

You really are better letting him win his little game.

Actually - I have studied reincarnation extensively - and we are in full agreement as to it's concept. However - it too has it's logical flaws, as I've stated. So - too, suicide is a sin in Catholicism, another who's concepts I am all to familiar with, but it extends to numerous religions, and is by it's very nature - in this country anyway - against the law. It's just that Catholicism has always been the most verbal when it comes to opposing it. Even Atheists oppose suicide (else we wouldn't have these laws on the books any more). So - was this meant to adress what I stated in my post? If so, I missed the response.

Debate what? Do you want proof that no translation is perfect? What do you want me to debate? I would love to see you respond to my post. Explain why you think I'm wrong.

Oh and Eljay, it’s an "isolated incident"? Come on now. What about your famous "virgin Mary" Why would it be so important for Mary to be considered a "virgin"? Because it implies that god had some kind of role in knocking her up. It would have been yucky and "unholy" for her to become pregnant in the traditional manner.

My guess is it wasn't Joseph. It was another man who impregnated her and it may have been rape. Joseph probably knew what would happen if this got out and became common knowledge. A stoning more than likely. So the two of them concocted this story to spare Mary's life and get out of dodge before those crazy villagers got wind of it.

I told you, I'm not going to apologize for your misunderstanding again. I think it's unfair that you continue to bring it up. What you are saying is that you don't believe I'm honest and you don't trust my intentions. I haven't questioned your honesty or intentions, I have the higher ground morally on this issue. I hope that you will eventually offer me the courtesy of treating me as an equal in a debate instead of continuing to insult my integrity.

It was considered "important" for Mary to be a virgin because it was prophised she would be thousands of years previous to this. It was stated first that the saviour would be born to a virgin. It is one of the 3,000+ fullfilled prophecies of the Old Testiment which told of the coming of Jesus.

But seriously - is this something that you are unfamiliar with?

Oh is that a fact spider. Is that why you chose to compare me to your ex wife? That was quite despicable and uncalled for. Higher moral ground? Please sir, spare me. As far as the caps, I told you I gave you the benefit of the doubt. I think that is the definition of taking the “high road”. JB was the one that actually called you on it.

She's my ex-girlfriend, not ex wife.

I still love her, I wasn't comparing you on that level.

I was comparing BEHAVIORS (no, that's not yelling, but it won't stop you from making that claim). I should I just pointed out that it's a passive-aggressive defense behavior, where you claim "You aren't a victim, I am". I explained it to you that I wasn't "yelling", I used all caps for emphasis (as my original post pointed out). You accepted my explanation, until I called you on suggesting that Christians don't think. Suddenly, you no longer accepted my explanation and were terribly offended again. I realize that you probably aren't even aware that you did this, but it's what you did. To defend yourself, you turned yourself into a victim who had been "yelled" at by the big mean Christian.

Whether she is or was your ex wife or ex girlfriend is irrelevant. It’s disgusting and you have no right to address me in that manner. It's a violation of my personal space. You do not have permission to cross that line with me.

It’s obvious to most everyone here that you become upset when you are losing an argument and often lose your temper. It is also commonly known that when a person utilizes capitalization for entire sentences on open forum, it is considered yelling. A couple members actually called you on this. I chose to let it go and said "it’s not a good practice to use all caps" if you recall. In effect, that gave you the benefit of the doubt, minimized it for others, and allowed the debate to continue. This was all I wanted at that point. I don’t even perceive you as "the big mean Christian". You are just a sometimes egotistical and silly little man who likes to pretend he speaks for god or has his ear.

1 a: force or intensity of expression that gives impressiveness or importance to something b: a particular prominence given in reading or speaking to one or more words or syllables
2: special consideration of or stress or insistence on something

Just not buying it. At least not from a logical perspective. Tell me with a straight face that Mary was a "virgin". By definition of virgin, let’s just say a person who has not been intimate with one of the opposite sex. Do you think this was actually the case? Not to mention, why would it be “bad” or “unholy” if a man had actually impregnated Mary? Isn’t that the way it’s normally done? You have had sex before correct? I don’t want to jump to conclusions here.

Tell me something Krisma.....My understanding of reincarnation is to come back because whatever you didn't do the first time or lessons you didn't learn.....But for me there is no way you can not reincarnate into something other then you originally were there is no way that I can go from say and eagle, to a dog to a person....You can reincarnate to something that was less in the first place. So I keep coming back as a human with out any knowledge of what I didn't learn before....So what would be the purpose....what are the chances that I would come back and learn the lesson not previously learned...And if I did what would truly be the purpose....just to die again.

I look at it a lot like evolution.....I will never believe that I came from a flossom of nothing, fell into the ocean, turned into a tad pole, frog, crawled out, turned into a monkey then an ape and then a human.....just makes no sense....and if were the case then the tad pole, frog, monkey and ape would no long be here........so nope

Mary was a virgin. Your "not buying it" has no bearing on it's validity. Please don't confuse this with the "perpetuality of virginity" as described in Catholicism though - I don't buy into that. Mary had other children after Jesus - and that would have ended the "virginity" status at that point.

I wouldn't say that you are jumping to conclusions - but I am curious as to how much you are limiting God. Do you think that the God of scripture - who fashioned Adam from the earth, and Eve from his rib - incapable of impregnating a virgin by mere thought?

I crossed no line, I made a fair and accurate comparison. If you think I was unfair or "crossed a line" then please report my post to the moderators.



When did you change your mind? After I called you on saying that Christians don't think. Coincidence? I think not.

As far as using all caps, I could have used bolding or underlining, but I was in a hurry and it was just easier to HIT THE CAPS KEY. Not yelling, emphasis.

Emphasis (from Merraim-Webster's dictionary)


And if I said that water was wet, JB would have a disagreement with that. If you are going to trust her opinion on things, then get ready to believe some really crazy things, not just that I "yelled" at you.

It is all believable in a fantasy story, like the bible is. Not believable in real life though. I choose to live in the real world versus believing in the incestuous fantasy of the bible.