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| Topic: Chat on religions vs Being religious | |
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Revelation 13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.   Hey this is not on topic at all  Are you trying to "scare" someone so they will will be in fear like you? Please read the scripture and read the conversation in it's current form and you will find that it is your post which is off topic. It is off topic because we are supposed to talk about religion history without going to the religious explanation of the books of religions . |
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but that's the point SAM, i did a study on this over 20 yrs ago and then the farthest you could could go back was to the goddess religion as being earliest recordings, past that if anything else is new , i'm not aware of it. and even if it is it cannot tell what the earliest was conceived in mans imaginations, and past that it does nothing to explain where man came from in the beginning. so what's the point?
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Edited by
davidben1
on
Fri 07/25/08 11:26 PM
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if each thing come from a place of NO RESTRICTIONS, then each thing while mortal shall rebel..........
if anything come from a place of ALL FREEDOM, then anything mortal shall fight for freedom, first of perception of good and bad......... if anything come from a place where all is without effort, then each shall come to hate physical effort while here...... the subconscious be FIRST IN LINE TO POWER, SO THE CONSCIOUS MIND BE AN OBSERVER, ASKING THE SUBCONSCIOUS OR ONESELF GOOD QUESTIONS WITHOUT FEAR, THAT LEAD THE WAY......... who that ask for anything shall be given a stone......ALL, THE ROSETTA STONE, OR WHITE "HOT" STONE OF THE TRUTH, AND SO THE CONSCIOUS SHALL BE SEARED WITH A "WHITE HOT IRON", THAT EACH MAY ACCESS THEIR SUBCONSCIOUS AT FREE WILL AND HEAR ALL TRUTH......peace |
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I assume that God always intended on creating Eve - because He did. God does not exist within the constraints of time - He knows it all from the end back to the beginning. So how can God have an "after-thought". so to interpret that God had no intention of creating Eve sort of contradicts the definition of Him. well "Eljay"..according to the bible or christian folklore didn't it state that it took God 6 days to create creation ..wheather it was 6 earth days or 6 god days or 6 teletubbies days doesn't make a difference because it mean that God does exist within the constraints of time because he became exhausted and had to rest on the 7th day ....so since "according to the bible" God does work within the resraints of time now would you agree that it is possible that God does have after-thoughts in which Eve was one of those thoughts And there is no such thing as "free will". Freedom of choice maybe. But you cannot stand on the top of a building and jump off, and expect that your "free will" is going to defy the law of gravity. Your "freedom" here will last until you hit the pavement. However, you can freely "chose" to jump off - but then you suffer the consequences. Be it that you hit the pavement, or miraculously learn how to fly. As to your will about the outcome. It "ain't" free. ahh it's refreshing to finally read that it's atleast one christian that understand the concept of there being no "Free Will" either that or admit that they are under the control of "God's Divine Plan" ... but you seem to believe that there is 'Free Choice" ..ok so let's test that theory ...so let's say there is a baby that is starving because there is no one to feed the baby then do the baby have the "Free Choice" not to starve .. |
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Edited by
Jeanniebean
on
Sat 07/26/08 07:22 AM
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And there is no such thing as "free will". Freedom of choice maybe. But you cannot stand on the top of a building and jump off, and expect that your "free will" is going to defy the law of gravity. Your "freedom" here will last until you hit the pavement. However, you can freely "chose" to jump off - but then you suffer the consequences. Be it that you hit the pavement, or miraculously learn how to fly. As to your will about the outcome. It "ain't" free. ahh it's refreshing to finally read that it's at least one christian that understand the concept of there being no "Free Will" either that or admit that they are under the control of "God's Divine Plan" ... but you seem to believe that there is 'Free Choice" ..ok so let's test that theory ...so let's say there is a baby that is starving because there is no one to feed the baby then do the baby have the "Free Choice" not to starve .. The term "Free will" is redundant. THE WILL IS ALWAYS FREE. And incidentally, it does not mean to imply that a person has super power and can fly safely without the aid of a flying machine or leap tall mountains. If anyone wanted to explore the meaning of the Will, I will happily direct you to a free download to a book called "The Power of Will" or send it to you via email. But it you just want to argue about something you don't understand, by all means start a different thread about "free will." Having "free will" does not mean you have the power of a superhuman. Geeeeeze.  |
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The term "Free will" is redundant. THE WILL IS ALWAYS FREE. And incidentally, it does not mean to imply that a person has super power and can fly safely without the aid of a flying machine or leap tall mountains. If anyone wanted to explore the meaning of the Will, I will happily direct you to a free download to a book called "The Power of Will" or send it to you via email. But it you just want to argue about something you don't understand, by all means start a different thread about "free will." Having "free will" does not mean you have the power of a superhuman. Geeeeeze. if 'Will" cost you energy to generate then how is it "Free" also one may lack the energy to carry out that 'Will" which means that 'Free Will" only exist within the realm of the mind but doesn't mean you have the 'Free Will" to change any thought into "Will" ..you only have options also remember "JennieBean" when I asked you to use your 'Free Will" to form a rational thought that was different then those of the hive collective and you couldn't ..which means if you lack "Free Thought" you lack 'Free Will" |
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Edited by
Rapunzel
on
Sat 07/26/08 08:22 AM
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and to stay on topic, Miles' post in another thread really gives a good explanation to this topic: Both of you i know are very intelligent people. The more information you take in the more proof you need to qualify that what you learned before is true. Yet we say a not 2000 but i do not really know but 4000+ year old book has to be myth. In the same breath we will say thier are aliens invading us. How could it be possible with all the planets and such that are billions of miles away not have life. We believe this with no proof.. Don't we? We take science and search the fossil records and we look for a connection. man has to have a connection to something. Something does not come out of nothing. So we look around well the fish were in the sea and they started getting guiles to breath. After they got guiles they started soming on the land and evolving. After millions of years these fish started to stand up and walk with a hump back. As time went on they grew hair and finger and toes and they became apes. Now as the apes began to be over the animal world they had thier brains to start to come alive. When this happened they started to comunicate by some kind of language. Now this language evolved and they invented writings. All this brain power enabled them to stand straight up instead of humped over . They then began losing hair off of thier body's and thier arms became shorter. they started now to need clothing. They were getting cold from thier hair loss. They developed clothes from thier hair loss and started learning more and so they decided they need a creator. They did not know where they came from anymore. They were getting so smart that they realized they needed a way to control all of them. They decided this elaborate plan and put it in the minds of men and women and they split off to different sections of the world. But they did not all keep the facts right about what thier ancestors had derived as the controlling of man kind. So now each part of the world has it's own stories about how man came to be. Then came along electricity and communication that man invented. They could now share idea's again about thier existance . the problem now is who's story is correct. A man comes along and says you all have some connection to each other and all your stories are just that stories. You see we have found that you came from the sea. from thier to an ape and from thier here we are. They were so proud of this man. We are sea creatures all of the planet is the same. If all of everything is the same then i can do and act anyway i want. I love it.. Thank you for telling us the Truth. The Moral of the Story is? When you lose your scales you sink or you die. Blessings... May Yahweh help us All..Shalom...Miles     |
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Voila. been tacking aginst the wind? This wind will blow into a different course that requires no map, and surely then the destination cannot be realized, if there is nothing distinguishable to be gleaned from listing where the pilot fails to plot. The coherence of anything spiritual must have a basis for being. I would venture to say that man has pondered death and mortality with an obsession. et al. Regardless of being evolved from mush through primates or being designed and uniquely planted as trees of a certain seed, I suspect that death reigning over the earliest man has been a determinable influence over life and pondering it's very observance by each has ben an obsessive hurdle to jump to seize control over that event. Thus, the imagination. Not as the genesis for religiosity, per se, but as the first excuse for not fully living. If death reigns, then life is not priory. Secular humanism is such a philosophical dead end, in my opinion. It is compulsively focused on death, and obsessive in it's affirmations. Maybe that explains the phrase, "order in chaos". I don't have time for being preoccupied with death. I am too busy living. I do believe we both step over the carnage daily and wonder at the stench, my friend.  I gather you just sneaked by, made a commment from the hallway, and decided to hang on to the 'being religious' GPS around your belt. Check again later, and if you feel safe to leave the 'BR-GPS' at the door next time, it will be a pleasure having you. This is just a topic of discussion 'wouldee'. No more, no less. No imminent danger! No looming death at the horizon! As for the coherence of anything spiritual, I don't have to provide it with a basis for being. I welcome it whole, and it comes 'full equipped', basis for being and all. Anyway, if your heart sings next time you visit, and you are willing to play along with the 'golden rule', I'll gladly serve you a tall one of 'phenomenology', with a twist!!! Regards wouldee. Voila! I can't leave the sum total of my being aside and speak credibly on anything, my friend. discussing religion comparatively is not a journey with an end. It is an exercise in excusing one's personal responsibility to acknowledge God. Presuppositions and prejudices are bound to be the motive for all discourse offered by any in such a discussion. It will lead only to the "I'm right and you're wrong" conclusion with nothing being learned from God, because God is not invited into this discussion. Circular excuses for dancing around accountability and personal resonsibility will invariably lead to the common misconception that already exists and has been overplayed and parroted ad infinitum and ad nauseum. You are smarter than that. Conclusory opinions are not a thesis for learning or sharing revelations of God. But it does further the labels given the initiate by the ignorant. Tune up your satellite, my friend. It isn't triangulating my position. Meanwhile, I shall observe the wind here by the rustling of the leaves in the trees. White noise reinforces knowledge that defines the very principle. But white noise still enjoys the caveat that it is such only for a lack of knowledge. Perhaps what triggers a person's faith to grow would be a more abt topic. At least then, one would not be entering a conclusory fray hopelessly bound to establishing more contradictions and self doubt. Facilitate away, though, and I will ponder just how right I am.  You seemed to have hit the nail on the head. I see the cycle too. Maybe I'll just sit this one out & see what people have to say. |
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The term "Free will" is redundant. THE WILL IS ALWAYS FREE. And incidentally, it does not mean to imply that a person has super power and can fly safely without the aid of a flying machine or leap tall mountains. If anyone wanted to explore the meaning of the Will, I will happily direct you to a free download to a book called "The Power of Will" or send it to you via email. But it you just want to argue about something you don't understand, by all means start a different thread about "free will." Having "free will" does not mean you have the power of a superhuman. Geeeeeze. if 'Will" cost you energy to generate then how is it "Free" also one may lack the energy to carry out that 'Will" which means that 'Free Will" only exist within the realm of the mind but doesn't mean you have the 'Free Will" to change any thought into "Will" ..you only have options also remember "JennieBean" when I asked you to use your 'Free Will" to form a rational thought that was different then those of the hive collective and you couldn't ..which means if you lack "Free Thought" you lack 'Free Will" That you would even ask me to use my will to form a rational thought that was different then those of the hive collective demonstrated that you haven't a clue what the will is or what it is for. As I said, I will set up a download of the book I mentioned if you want to educate yourself. It is over 300 pages long. But you just want to argue about something you don't even understand, so I don't expect you will be interested. JB
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Eljay, You are determined to believe in Mediterranean mythology over common sense and intellectual discovery. For some reason you find it desirable to believe that some man was nailed to a pole because you are a rebellious creature who has sadly failed your creator. That's basically what the myth ends up being about. It's a story about a race of creatures who are so pathetically disobedient that their creator had to send his only begotten son to be nailed on a pole to pay for their pathetic rebellious disobedience of him. Why you find that to be such an attractive picture of the relationship between mankind and his creator is far beyond my ability to comprehend. If I could choose a belief system I would not feely choose such a pathetically discussing picture. Yet you are free to choose. You are free to decide how you will think of your relationship with your creator. For some strange reason you prefer to believe that you are an absolute rebellious spiteful failure who is unworthy of your creator's love and who is totally responsible for the need for Jesus to be nailed to a pole. According to this religion you are the reason that was necessary. You are fully responsible for it, and by accepting it you actually accept the hammer and spikes and you are offering to nail your God to a pole to pay for you disobedience. This somehow makes sense to you. As compared to banging my head on the ground five times a day, or relying on a deck of cards or the alignment of the stars, or hugging tree's and saving the wild forests, or coming back as a snail, or a bird, or an Aardvark (always wanted to use that word in a post) over and over again; Yes. This makes more sense to me than all of the other options that have been presented to me over the years. Chosing to think that God did not exist proved illogical to me as well when I chose that route. However - I don't quite see it as you've laid it out here, I'm not far from disagreeing with it. This does not have so much to do with the perception I have of myself (though I do not claim to be blameless before a perfect God) but of the world and people around me. Very rarely do I see people NOT screw up. One way or another, I keep hearing the phrase "well, they're only human". What does that actually mean. "Only human"? To me, it means that when matched up to perfection - man falls short, and makes mistakes. I'm not pre-occupied with this as you are, I just accept it. I don't pretend to assume that I've got a better idea of how to reconcile this "being human" with a God who is - well "Godlike and perfect". Do I think that the crucifixion was a logical conclusion to "pay for the wrongs of man"? No more than you do. But that doesn't mean I see it as "illogical" in the overall sense. What I see as illogical - is the idea that man thinks he can do enough "good" to "outweigh" the "bad". Is that what you think God is going to do? Count up the good deeds and measure them up against the bad? Tell me how that system works - if you think that's what's going on. Or do you think God just ignores what man does - good or bad? Yet, the fact that intellectual observations have clearly shown that death and destruction have been a part of nature and the animal and plant world long before mankind ever came on the scene shows that mankind is clearly not responsible for the imperfections in the world. You would rather reject that knowledge in favor of believing that you are a dismal rebellious failure who has miserably failed your creator and is now only going to be saved from your worthless predicament though the absurd notion that by nailing someone to a pole it will make it all better. Here I completely disagree with you. There is no "long before mankind ever came on the scene." This is a myth that makes me laugh harder. But that is a discussion for another thread. This is a picture of a God who demands that humans nail his son to a pole so that he can forgive them for they disgusting failure and rebellion to him. This is a God who has told people to stone each other to death. You can deny that until you blue in the face but it's in the story. You are so committed to believing in this myth that you will reject an sense of rationality to salvage it. Why? I have absolutely no idea. That is part of my point though Abra - your exegesis is wacked. This is not the idea i have of God. I do not see God as a boot camp sargeant - dictating to me what I need to do to win his favor. I do not envision the bible as a set of rules that I have to follow, and that when a rule is broken - I have to beat myself profusely. I have not compromised any sense of rationality, nor is my sense of reality altered. And where does this idea of "commited" come from? As though I have to accept something blindly? Believe me - I don't. Which is why I refuse to accept any of the nonsense about "Darwanism". I could care less how much time someone spends in school, or how mant letters they have after their name - I just don't swallow that "chit". These so called "scientific" and "proven facts" that the world is billions of years old. Do you actually believe this fairy tale? Do you actually think that the people who have devoted their lives to attempting to prove this nonsense are doing something "worthy for man kind"? Then save your head shacking concerns about the myths I believe in, and start thinking about your own delusions. If I could choose a picture of God why would I want to choose a picture of God that places me as a dismal failure needed to nail God's son to a pole in order to be saved? To me that's truly absurd. It's an utterly absurd notion. Beyond belief. If I have to choose a picture of a God, and my relationship with God, that'd be the very last picture I would choose. It would be the absolute last resort after all other pictures of God where shown to be untenable. But fortunately for me, there are other picture of God that are actually much more sane. Not only are they more tenable and less problematic, but they don't even fly in the face of what the universe is showing us. They are completely compatible with everything we know about our true physical nature. In order to believe that we are miserable failures of a God who tells us to stone each other to death and nail his son on a pole, I'd have to reject common sense, reason, and observational evidence that the universe has revealed us in a myriad of differnet conformational ways. I'd have to give up common sense, reason, and observational knowledge to believe in the Mediterranean mythology that says that we are responsible for the imperfections of the world and that we are miserable failures in Gods eyes and can only be "saved" if we are willing to take part in nailing his son to a pole. As far as I'm concerned that is a truly sick perverted situation to be in. As I say, I would only believe it if there was no other viable choice. And even then my heart would sink and I would be miserably depressed at how terrible of a situation I was born into. If that story is true, then I never even had a chance to have a truly loving relationship with my maker. The only possible relationship I could have is to help nail his son to a pole and go to him burdened with the complete guilt and shame that it my fault and that I'm fully responsible for this whole sick nightmare. Like I say, that would be my absolute last choice for a picture of God if I get to choose. And based on what the universe is telling us (along with the myriad of self-inconsistencies and contradictions within the mythology itself) there it truly no sensible reason why I should believe it. So why choose to believe something that is so incredulously unbelievable, self-inconsistent, and contradicts the real universe? The thing is Abra - you spend your time concerned over what God isn't, yet you don't give up the idea of God - so WHAT IS IT? Your picture of God changes with the seasons. One day it's a she, the next it's a bird-fairy. Really. You know that I've already abandoned the "There is no God" concept, and I'm not ignorant of all of the wonderful options that are out there as far as Mohammad to Mary Baker Eddy. I don't see a viable replacement, and my days of "Create-A-God" have come and gone. So what do you suggest I do? The "Unity" idea of God is pointless. Take a little from here - take a little from there. That's even less appealing than just inventing my own. I'm fine with what I percieve the God of the scriptures to be. Why are you so obsessed with believing that you are a complete failure to your creator and the only way you can patch things up with him is by nailing his son to a pole. Why is that picture so attractive to you. Are you an emotional masochistic or something? It isn't an obsession, and we have differing opinions about "failures and successes". It doesn't take a genious to recognise that man is a flawed creature. We are constantly reminded of this fact every day by Madison avenue. We are surrounded by it everywhere we go. It strikes to the core of man's existance. The world revolves around it. Man just does not measure up - to his OWN expectations - let alone God's. And why would you think the creator thinks I'm a failure? Do you think, I think, I disappoint Him? That I do things to "surprise" Him? That's an absurd notion. I get up everyday and face the same options and choices everyone else does, and if I do something wrong, I accept the consequences and move on. I don't stand there frozen and give up on life? What exactly is it that you think I'm "missing" in my life? Please. What have I sacrificed in my life that you have in yours? If you could come up with a reasonable response to that question I might take what you say seriously. But to me - you just sound like a little kid who thinks he's missing out on something in life because the "kids" around him has something he can't comprehend. I would only accept that picture if there was no other viable choice. But there are other viable choices. In fact, the other choices are extremely more reasonable. They are more healthy, they are better pictures of God, they are better pictures of humanity, they don't require nailing people to poles, or stoning people to death. And they are in completely agreement with what the universe is showing us. But these options that you have only exist in your mind Abra, because when called upon - you can only site whatever god you've created for that day is. And it isn't one that stands on its own - just one that contradicts what you don't like about the biblical God. It's fine with me if you want to create a smorgassboard God for yourself and change the flavors on a daily basis. I have no problem with that. But your perception of the God that I tend to think is a better option does not line up with my understanding. I'll never understand why anyone would want to choose a dismal picture for God when very healthy beautiful pictures of God actually exist that are far superior, not only for the relationship of man and God, but they are far superior pictures of God. If you have a good picture of God, and a bad picture of God. Why would you choose the bad picture of God? Do you think that God is bad? But I don't have a bad picture of God. We're not looking at the same picture. Or if we are, we're not looking at it in the same way. Which I suppose is fairly obvious, eH. But these "beautiful pictures" you see of god - I have no idea what you're talking about. Who is this "god" who stands outside of the realm of scripture to which you refer? What is it all about that so contradicts the "God of old"? Who has suddenly showed up in the last half-century. Tell me more. WOW! Good for you Eljay! I agree with you here... |
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And when God told Abraham to sacrifice Isaac - do you think God didn't know what he was going to do? I think it's perfectly clear that the mythology you're referring to can't have anything to do with God. We could discuss the same things about why the Greek Gods did all the things they did. They all had agendas and plans too. Why you are so anxious to believe in a mythology that claims that you have fallen from grace from your creator is beyond me. Especially in light of the fact, that mankind couldn't have been responsible for the imperfections in the world even if he wanted to be responsible for them. It's simply not possible Eljay because the dinosaurus were eating each other and dying long before man ever even evolved. So it's impossible for the Bible to be true. It's simply impossible. Yet you'd still like to believe that you've fallen from grace from your creator. I just don't understand why you are so in love with that notion. Why are you so anxious to be at odds with your creator? Why is that so important to you? What I'm at odds at Abra is your pretentious assumptions to claim you know the facts. Man did not walk with dinasours? You have no clue whether or not this is true. NONE! Yet you assume this as acceptable and use it to support a premise. For someone who claims to be a mathematician - your grasp of logic contradicts your claim. Again, another reason for me to look closely at what you say - dismiss it, and all I'm left with is the reinforcement that the biblical account HAS to be true, because your feeble attempts to prove it false are getting weaker and weaker. |
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What I'm at odds at Abra is your pretentious assumptions to claim you know the facts. Man did not walk with dinasours? You have no clue whether or not this is true. NONE! Yet you assume this as acceptable and use it to support a premise. For someone who claims to be a mathematician - your grasp of logic contradicts your claim. Again, another reason for me to look closely at what you say - dismiss it, and all I'm left with is the reinforcement that the biblical account HAS to be true, because your feeble attempts to prove it false are getting weaker and weaker. Do you seriously believe that mankind and dinosaurs co-existed? Where do you get that information? If it is true, where are dinosaurs mentioned in the Bible? I suppose you believe the reason there are no dinosaurs today is because there was not room for them on the ark or Moses was afraid they might be a bit hard to feed. JB |
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And there is no such thing as "free will". Freedom of choice maybe. But you cannot stand on the top of a building and jump off, and expect that your "free will" is going to defy the law of gravity. Your "freedom" here will last until you hit the pavement. However, you can freely "chose" to jump off - but then you suffer the consequences. Be it that you hit the pavement, or miraculously learn how to fly. As to your will about the outcome. It "ain't" free. ahh it's refreshing to finally read that it's at least one christian that understand the concept of there being no "Free Will" either that or admit that they are under the control of "God's Divine Plan" ... but you seem to believe that there is 'Free Choice" ..ok so let's test that theory ...so let's say there is a baby that is starving because there is no one to feed the baby then do the baby have the "Free Choice" not to starve .. The term "Free will" is redundant. THE WILL IS ALWAYS FREE. And incidentally, it does not mean to imply that a person has super power and can fly safely without the aid of a flying machine or leap tall mountains. If anyone wanted to explore the meaning of the Will, I will happily direct you to a free download to a book called "The Power of Will" or send it to you via email. But it you just want to argue about something you don't understand, by all means start a different thread about "free will." Having "free will" does not mean you have the power of a superhuman. Geeeeeze. Obviously you are taking the term "free will" out of it's refered connotation, and making an assessment over it's meaning. When someone makes the statement "God gave us free will" - they are making an assumption over wehat they percieve the bible to state - when it doesn't. No where in the scriptures will you find "free will" as something given to man by God. Just like you will not find the concept of "Separation of church and state" anywhere in the constitution. You cannot prove that Eve bit an apple anywhere in the bible, and there's no mention what-so-ever that there were THREE wise men who came to the baby Jesus on the morning of his birth. All FALSE perceptions and assumptions. No - if you want to examine the word "Will" on it's own - free from any association to scripture, than off course it's obvious. But it has nothing to do with the post you are refering to. |
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The term "Free will" is redundant. THE WILL IS ALWAYS FREE. And incidentally, it does not mean to imply that a person has super power and can fly safely without the aid of a flying machine or leap tall mountains. If anyone wanted to explore the meaning of the Will, I will happily direct you to a free download to a book called "The Power of Will" or send it to you via email. But it you just want to argue about something you don't understand, by all means start a different thread about "free will." Having "free will" does not mean you have the power of a superhuman. Geeeeeze. if 'Will" cost you energy to generate then how is it "Free" also one may lack the energy to carry out that 'Will" which means that 'Free Will" only exist within the realm of the mind but doesn't mean you have the 'Free Will" to change any thought into "Will" ..you only have options also remember "JennieBean" when I asked you to use your 'Free Will" to form a rational thought that was different then those of the hive collective and you couldn't ..which means if you lack "Free Thought" you lack 'Free Will" That you would even ask me to use my will to form a rational thought that was different then those of the hive collective demonstrated that you haven't a clue what the will is or what it is for. As I said, I will set up a download of the book I mentioned if you want to educate yourself. It is over 300 pages long. But you just want to argue about something you don't even understand, so I don't expect you will be interested. JB "JennieBean" will that book have any rational thoughts in it that no one else every said? or let's make it easier..does it contain a concept that no one in this forum ever used if it does ..then cut and paste that please ..if not ...then you are trying to be evasive... because I know for a fact that you will be unable to form you own rational thoughts independent from the collective and therefore have no "Free Will" ...here's your chance to prove me wrong |
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What I'm at odds at Abra is your pretentious assumptions to claim you know the facts. Man did not walk with dinasours? You have no clue whether or not this is true. NONE! Yet you assume this as acceptable and use it to support a premise. For someone who claims to be a mathematician - your grasp of logic contradicts your claim. Again, another reason for me to look closely at what you say - dismiss it, and all I'm left with is the reinforcement that the biblical account HAS to be true, because your feeble attempts to prove it false are getting weaker and weaker. Do you seriously believe that mankind and dinosaurs co-existed? Where do you get that information? If it is true, where are dinosaurs mentioned in the Bible? Ummm... How about in Genesis 1. Somewhere around the part where God created he creatures who walked the earth, swam the sea and flew the sky. A couple of days later - He created man. So - you want me to believe that dinasaurs lived - what, 2 days? I suppose you believe the reason there are no dinosaurs today is because there was not room for them on the ark or Moses was afraid they might be a bit hard to feed. JB There are no dinasaurs today for the same reason there are no Dodo birds, that there was almost no buffalo, and soon there will be no tigers, or Bald eagles. It's a dying planet. Eventually, a number of species will only be known because they are stuffed, and in some museum. |
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The term "Free will" is redundant. THE WILL IS ALWAYS FREE. And incidentally, it does not mean to imply that a person has super power and can fly safely without the aid of a flying machine or leap tall mountains. If anyone wanted to explore the meaning of the Will, I will happily direct you to a free download to a book called "The Power of Will" or send it to you via email. But it you just want to argue about something you don't understand, by all means start a different thread about "free will." Having "free will" does not mean you have the power of a superhuman. Geeeeeze. if 'Will" cost you energy to generate then how is it "Free" also one may lack the energy to carry out that 'Will" which means that 'Free Will" only exist within the realm of the mind but doesn't mean you have the 'Free Will" to change any thought into "Will" ..you only have options also remember "JennieBean" when I asked you to use your 'Free Will" to form a rational thought that was different then those of the hive collective and you couldn't ..which means if you lack "Free Thought" you lack 'Free Will" That you would even ask me to use my will to form a rational thought that was different then those of the hive collective demonstrated that you haven't a clue what the will is or what it is for. As I said, I will set up a download of the book I mentioned if you want to educate yourself. It is over 300 pages long. But you just want to argue about something you don't even understand, so I don't expect you will be interested. JB "JennieBean" will that book have any rational thoughts in it that no one else every said? or let's make it easier..does it contain a concept that no one in this forum ever used if it does ..then cut and paste that please ..if not ...then you are trying to be evasive... because I know for a fact that you will be unable to form you own rational thoughts independent from the collective and therefore have no "Free Will" ...here's your chance to prove me wrong What you challenge has nothing to do with the will. The term "free will" is redundant. Before you can prove that there is or isn't "free will" you must properly define the will, which you have not done. If you don't know what the will is, then there is no way you can determine if it is free or not free. If you think the will is not free, show me one that is in a cage or trapped in some kind of containment device. Describe to me what the will is first. You don't know. JB |
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The term "Free will" is redundant. THE WILL IS ALWAYS FREE. And incidentally, it does not mean to imply that a person has super power and can fly safely without the aid of a flying machine or leap tall mountains. If anyone wanted to explore the meaning of the Will, I will happily direct you to a free download to a book called "The Power of Will" or send it to you via email. But it you just want to argue about something you don't understand, by all means start a different thread about "free will." Having "free will" does not mean you have the power of a superhuman. Geeeeeze. if 'Will" cost you energy to generate then how is it "Free" also one may lack the energy to carry out that 'Will" which means that 'Free Will" only exist within the realm of the mind but doesn't mean you have the 'Free Will" to change any thought into "Will" ..you only have options also remember "JennieBean" when I asked you to use your 'Free Will" to form a rational thought that was different then those of the hive collective and you couldn't ..which means if you lack "Free Thought" you lack 'Free Will" That you would even ask me to use my will to form a rational thought that was different then those of the hive collective demonstrated that you haven't a clue what the will is or what it is for. As I said, I will set up a download of the book I mentioned if you want to educate yourself. It is over 300 pages long. But you just want to argue about something you don't even understand, so I don't expect you will be interested. JB "JennieBean" will that book have any rational thoughts in it that no one else every said? or let's make it easier..does it contain a concept that no one in this forum ever used if it does ..then cut and paste that please ..if not ...then you are trying to be evasive... because I know for a fact that you will be unable to form you own rational thoughts independent from the collective and therefore have no "Free Will" ...here's your chance to prove me wrong What you challenge has nothing to do with the will. The term "free will" is redundant. Before you can prove that there is or isn't "free will" you must properly define the will, which you have not done. If you don't know what the will is, then there is no way you can determine if it is free or not free. If you think the will is not free, show me one that is in a cage or trapped in some kind of containment device. Describe to me what the will is first. You don't know. JB "JennieBean" the "Will" is you simply thinking beyond the thoughts of the collective and if you have 'Free Will" clearly this would not be a problem ...so can you break 'Free" and form your own independent thoughts ...either you can or you can't ... |
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What I'm at odds at Abra is your pretentious assumptions to claim you know the facts. Man did not walk with dinasours? You have no clue whether or not this is true. NONE! Eljay, you aren't even being reasonable. We have every scientific reason based on many different facets of scientific investigation that mankind did not live side-by-side with dinosaurs. You'd basically have to denounce science completely to claim that it is wrong about this. But in order to do that you've have to also agree that you computer, your television, your cell phone, your refrigerator, you automobile, etc., etc., etc., all really don't work because science is all wrong. Any why are you going to deny science? So that you can support a myth that is nothing more than a bunch of Mediterranean folklore that was clearly influenced by all the other myths in the region? You're not even being rational with such a suggestion. You'd rather believe in ancient superstitions that we all fell from grace from God, and that our disobedience can only be forgiven via the a blood sacrifice, and that God himself came down to earth and volunteered to be the blood sacrifice that he needs in order to forgive us. You'd rather deny all of modern knowledge in favor of believing in an ancient unsubstantial self-inconsistent folklore that has man at odds with God. A story that claims that this God created an eternal hell fire for all those who are not 'saved' and that the vast majority of mankind will indeed end up in that hell fire and only a very few will be 'saved'. Why would you choose to ignore genuine knowledge in favor of such an inconsistent unsubstantiated myth that has all of mankind fallen from grace and the vast majority of mankind headed for eternal damnation? You claim that I have the wrong picture of the biblical God. But you show me where the Bible says that the vast majority of mankind are going to heaven. According to Matthew, in your mythology, Jesus said, "Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat: Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it. According to the mythology you'd like us to buy into, the VAST MAJORITY of mankind is going to hell. You think that's a pretty picture? You'd rather reject intellectual knowledge and trust ancient self-inconsistent folklore? Why even bother talking about what is "factual" clearly you couldn't care less about "facts". You just want this gory picture of a damned humanity to be true for some strange reason and you don't care whether there are any facts to back it up or not. In fact, you flatly reject any and all facts that show why it can't possibly be true. You don't care about facts at all. You just want to see the bulk of humanity condemned to damnation I guess.  |
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"JennieBean" the "Will" is you simply thinking beyond the thoughts of the collective and if you have 'Free Will" clearly this would not be a problem ...so can you break 'Free" and form your own independent thoughts ...either you can or you can't ... I disagree with your conclusion of what the will is. This being the case, we cannot continue this debate. JB |
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Edited by
Jeanniebean
on
Sat 07/26/08 02:52 PM
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What I'm at odds at Abra is your pretentious assumptions to claim you know the facts. Man did not walk with dinasours? You have no clue whether or not this is true. NONE! Yet you assume this as acceptable and use it to support a premise. For someone who claims to be a mathematician - your grasp of logic contradicts your claim. Again, another reason for me to look closely at what you say - dismiss it, and all I'm left with is the reinforcement that the biblical account HAS to be true, because your feeble attempts to prove it false are getting weaker and weaker. Do you seriously believe that mankind and dinosaurs co-existed? Where do you get that information? If it is true, where are dinosaurs mentioned in the Bible? Ummm... How about in Genesis 1. Somewhere around the part where God created he creatures who walked the earth, swam the sea and flew the sky. A couple of days later - He created man. So - you want me to believe that dinasaurs lived - what, 2 days? Okee dokee. hummmm. so.. you are seriously saying that you believe the story that the world was really made in seven earth days and God made dinosaurs right along with Adam and Eve? Okay. If you really believe that, then you are truly a man of faith. You should be able to move a mountain with your mind. Now I want to know what caused you to loose faith in Santa Clause and his elves? Seriously, that is really mind blowing for me to think that you believe and take that story literally, and deny all scientific evidence to the contrary. (Most people rationalize things like that in their minds until they make sense.) As Spock on Star Trec would say: "Fascinating!" I suppose you believe the reason there are no dinosaurs today is because there was not room for them on the ark or Moses was afraid they might be a bit hard to feed. JB There are no dinasaurs today for the same reason there are no Dodo birds, that there was almost no buffalo, and soon there will be no tigers, or Bald eagles. It's a dying planet. Eventually, a number of species will only be known because they are stuffed, and in some museum. 1. Predators killed off the Dodo Birds cause they were dumb and defenseless. (This is not so for the Dinosaurs.) 2. Buffalo almost became extinct because our government purposely slaughtered them to rob the native American (redskins) of their main source of food and starve them out and run them to reservations. 3. Tigers are becoming extinct because people are killing the tigers for their hides and other things. Bald eagles almost became extinct also because people just liked to shoot them for target practice. 4. So I guess you are suggesting that the descendants of Adam and Eve went out and killed all the dinosaurs. I wonder how long this took them and why there is nothing written in any historical documents about the giant creatures and their destruction? I think you need to reevaluate your beliefs. Seriously. JB |
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