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| Topic: Chat on religions vs Being religious | |
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I thought this would be a interesting quote to share: Those who say religion has nothing to do with politics do not know what religion is. Mohandas Gandhi Do you believe religion is controlling our politics today? Absolutely! Always has - always will. And that is the main problem too. |
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To answer Smiless: Oh most definately, at least here in the U.S., but it is also both ways. (Organized) Religion is also dominated by politics. That's why I never actually "joined" a church, I didn't think it was a requirement to have a belief. And from the topic above. How come no one brought up that Eve was Adams second wife? (The first was also made of the ground, but refused to be subserviant to Adam and was cast out. Thus God made woman from man, making her part of him.) and you got that from.....??? |
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We lost the way to respond significantly upon this subject of begginings when the library of Alexandria was burned and destroyed in ancient times. There could actually be a great debate if such text and writing's still exsisted. what we can no now, is little in comparison and i for one am not interested in a debate that can not include all that was known to the ancients. your just spinning your wheels, but have fun if you continue with it.
I'll check in once and a while to get a smile or two. have at it croc's  
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Egyptian: I am a terrible historian and I would like to know what the best sources for Egyptian history are. I feel that the beginning of religion as we know it today began here, in this region and with the gods worshiped by these people. I think there are many amazing secrets in the underground of Egypt, in the pyramids, and the history. I suspect an ancient advanced civilization left its mark on this land at this location. JB Great JB!!! Do some research, get back to the thread with your findings, and we'll debate-discuss-sort-out the stuff in the best of Socratic tradition!!! |
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Edited by
dangurtner
on
Fri 07/25/08 12:31 PM
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We lost the way to respond significantly upon this subject of begginings when the library of Alexandria was burned and destroyed in ancient times. There could actually be a great debate if such text and writing's still exsisted. what we can no now, is little in comparison and i for one am not interested in a debate that can not include all that was known to the ancients. your just spinning your wheels, but have fun if you continue with it. You're absolutely right on that. I wish the that library still existed...so many questions could be answered |
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We lost the way to respond significantly upon this subject of begginings when the library of Alexandria was burned and destroyed in ancient times. There could actually be a great debate if such text and writing's still exsisted. what we can no now, is little in comparison and i for one am not interested in a debate that can not include all that was known to the ancients. your just spinning your wheels, but have fun if you continue with it. I'll check in once and a while to get a smile or two. have at it croc's Spinning wheel! That's funny 'tribo'! As though everyone on these threads weren't 'SPINNING'!!! Here's to each his own 'spinning wheel' !!! |
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We lost the way to respond significantly upon this subject of begginings when the library of Alexandria was burned and destroyed in ancient times. There could actually be a great debate if such text and writing's still exsisted. what we can no now, is little in comparison and i for one am not interested in a debate that can not include all that was known to the ancients. your just spinning your wheels, but have fun if you continue with it. I'll check in once and a while to get a smile or two. have at it croc's Spinning wheel! That's funny 'tribo'! As though everyone on these threads weren't 'SPINNING'!!! Here's to each his own 'spinning wheel' !!! I'll drink to that -  \ |
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Edited by
Dragoness
on
Fri 07/25/08 12:42 PM
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OK - this might be way too broad a topic. We need to narrow it into something that can capture the focus of the discussion. Smiless has gotten the closest by bringing up the ancient civilization, but I think this discussion begins further back than even that. Not too many years ago, primitive man was thought to lack the intellect to relate to the philosophy of religious dogma or even to superstition. There have been a many more recent finds that indicate primitive man held enough superstitions to conclude some dogmatic religious belief. Recent, accidental, mumifications of primitive man have been found. Around and on the mummy were the preserved artifacts that lead anthropologists to the conclusions above. So even, LONG before there was any written language, artifacts were being made. Without exception, it seems that these artifacts are intrinsic to the 'natural' world that primitive man was unable to explain. The moon, stars, weather, sun, even birth, death. While primitive man seemed to understand that death meant the individual would not wake up, it was not understood why a person stopped being. Even primitive man purposely placed food, and artifacts and even toys with their dead. So MY THEORY, would be something in line with the fact that our brain evolved like the rest our bodies. In its evolution it developed a tendancy toward "inherant" qualities. Inherant qualities served specifically as 'survival' qualities, first and foremost. The more important and nececessary, overall, a quality was, the more imbedded the quality became. For example, the science of psychology has been able to proof that there are some develomental domains of the human individual, that cross all cutural and societal norms. What they don't know is if these are genetically inscribed, as in our DNA or if they are simply intrinsic to humans as instincts are to animals. We know that skin color, hair color and eye color are genetic, at the DNA level, and we understand why - but we are still trying to figure out why we behave as we do. One of the questions is Why have humans insisted on religion, superstitions, and dogamtic belief systems, even after thousands of failed beliefs? OK - does this get us where we're going? Are we more focused on this topic? What do you all think? My deduction to this riddle of why religion survives is dependent on many different ideals or processes of man. One, regardless who the victim of this process is, man has always had to have a hierarchy in their groups. I am sure that in the early days the greatest strength and hunting ability went along with this superiority in the group. As time went on this brutal strength, although still admired, was not comparable to the intellect of those who thought things through. Second, man has, maybe, inherited from our more animalistic days, the urge to label and dismiss those of least importance. Religion allows man to feel superior even when he is not at any other level in life. There is a justification in the doctrines of the religion that make these "judgements" "divine" in origin, allowing the individual the freedom of not being responsible for their personal mistreatment of others because it is done in the name of god. Also religion allows man to put on a face or mask that is socially acceptable and this way they do not really have to worry about being judged by their "real" selves. My opinion of course |
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As for the concept of Adam and Eve, I believe the writer's (a man) logic behind this concept was that all humans are one type of being. We are all from one source making all humans regardless to color, economic background, religious background, etc... ONE. Not realizing of course that the incestuous connotations could unravel the beauty of the concept..lol
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The problem with your logic here Abra - is that your perception is that God created "Eve" as an afterthought. As though He hadn't thought of it. It is the foundation of the conclusions you draw there after - such as woman being "Man's property". Yet - the God who created Adam and Eve does not exist within a time constraint. So the idea that Eve was created as an afterthought is absurd. What I often wonder about is that you always seem to see these biblical accounts as absurd - rather than your interpretation or perception of them as being absurd. It only further convinces me that the account is trustworthy, for your logic continues to show me that your interpretations aren't the correct one's - so all I'm left with is a firmer belief that these "myths" as you say - are true. "Eljay" Adam and Eve brings up the evolutionary concept of which came first "The Chicken or The Egg" ..in biblical evolution Man came before woman so it's clear that Eve was an after-thought or atleast an after-creation because she was sculptured from a piece of the already formed Adam Well, I'd go with after-creation here, because it seems logical to assume that previous to creating Adam that God had always intended to create Eve. remember the bible said that God made "Man" in his own image which could suggest that God had no intentions of creating women so why would you assume that God always intended to create Eve ... surely you're not suggesting that Eve was part of "God's Divine Plan" because they would mean there is no "Free Will" so could you explain why the creation of Eve is not an after-thought I assume that God always intended on creating Eve - because He did. God does not exist within the constraints of time - He knows it all from the end back to the beginning. So how can God have an "after-thought". so to interpret that God had no intention of creating Eve sort of contradicts the definition of Him. And there is no such thing as "free will". Freedom of choice maybe. But you cannot stand on the top of a building and jump off, and expect that your "free will" is going to defy the law of gravity. Your "freedom" here will last until you hit the pavement. However, you can freely "chose" to jump off - but then you suffer the consequences. Be it that you hit the pavement, or miraculously learn how to fly. As to your will about the outcome. It "ain't" free. |
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And there is no such thing as "free will". Freedom of choice maybe. But you cannot stand on the top of a building and jump off, and expect that your "free will" is going to defy the law of gravity. Your "freedom" here will last until you hit the pavement. However, you can freely "chose" to jump off - but then you suffer the consequences. Be it that you hit the pavement, or miraculously learn how to fly. As to your will about the outcome. It "ain't" free. That's a very good way of putting it
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Edited by
voileazur
on
Fri 07/25/08 01:23 PM
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The problem with your logic here Abra - is that your perception is that God created "Eve" as an afterthought. As though He hadn't thought of it. It is the foundation of the conclusions you draw there after - such as woman being "Man's property". Yet - the God who created Adam and Eve does not exist within a time constraint. So the idea that Eve was created as an afterthought is absurd. What I often wonder about is that you always seem to see these biblical accounts as absurd - rather than your interpretation or perception of them as being absurd. It only further convinces me that the account is trustworthy, for your logic continues to show me that your interpretations aren't the correct one's - so all I'm left with is a firmer belief that these "myths" as you say - are true. "Eljay" Adam and Eve brings up the evolutionary concept of which came first "The Chicken or The Egg" ..in biblical evolution Man came before woman so it's clear that Eve was an after-thought or atleast an after-creation because she was sculptured from a piece of the already formed Adam Well, I'd go with after-creation here, because it seems logical to assume that previous to creating Adam that God had always intended to create Eve. remember the bible said that God made "Man" in his own image which could suggest that God had no intentions of creating women so why would you assume that God always intended to create Eve ... surely you're not suggesting that Eve was part of "God's Divine Plan" because they would mean there is no "Free Will" so could you explain why the creation of Eve is not an after-thought I assume that God always intended on creating Eve - because He did. God does not exist within the constraints of time - He knows it all from the end back to the beginning. So how can God have an "after-thought". so to interpret that God had no intention of creating Eve sort of contradicts the definition of Him. And there is no such thing as "free will". Freedom of choice maybe. But you cannot stand on the top of a building and jump off, and expect that your "free will" is going to defy the law of gravity. Your "freedom" here will last until you hit the pavement. However, you can freely "chose" to jump off - but then you suffer the consequences. Be it that you hit the pavement, or miraculously learn how to fly. As to your will about the outcome. It "ain't" free. Hello people!!! This is your host. I must ask your collaboration in moving this 'topic' to a suitable thread. It is off topic in this tread on 2 counts: 1) It is 'discussing' ONE MICRO ELEMENT of ONE RELIGION in particular, which in no way shape or form relates to other religions, or the 'history of religions', which this thread is about. 2) It is clearly breaking the the golden rule of leaving at the door of this forum, the 'BEING-RELIGIOUS' AND 'BEING-NON-RELIGIOUS' perspectives. I trust I can count on you 'gentlemen', to graciously cooperate, and retire this otherwise fascinating exchange, I'm sure, to its appropriate home. Your (making every effort to be) gracious and respectful host, aka 'the croco feeder'. |
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Eljay wrote: He knows it all from the end back to the beginning. So how can God have an "after-thought". so to interpret that God had no intention of creating Eve sort of contradicts the definition of Him. This is why the myths can't be true. Because they contradict what they claim God is like. Even the idea of Jesus coming as a 'savior' would have to be an 'afterthought'. But as you say, God is supposed to be omniscient so it makes no sense. If God had originally planned to offer mankind a 'savior' he would have done it before the flood. Let's face it. The whole religion is an 'afterthought'. Thus proving that it can't be from a God who doesn't do 'afterthoughts'. It's extremely self-inconsistent with what the God is even supposed to be like. That was my whole point. When I say that "Eve was an afterthought", I meant that to demonstrate how absurd it is. I didn't say it because I actually believe in the God of the Bible and believed that God was actually having an afterthought. The bottom line is pretty obvious I think. If God wanted to created both man and woman as a mating pair he would have created them simultaneously side-by-side. He wouldn't have created one as an 'afterthought'. That was my whole point. This is why we can rest assured that the religion had to have been an invention of man. God wouldn't have done things that way because it would have indeed been an 'afterthought' to do it that way. It's this very inconsistency that drives home my point. |
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Edited by
Spidercmb
on
Fri 07/25/08 01:42 PM
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Revelation 13:8
And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world. I have bolded and underlined the pertinent part of the scripture. Please read the conversation occurring between Abra and Eljay before you say this is off topic, I am directly responding to the claims made by Abra. |
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I think you're thread has gone to the dogs Voil.
Or maybe it's gone to the "gods". It seems to have already been reduced to "My God is better than your God!" Every knee shall bow and every tongue shall confess that my daddy can beat up your daddy. I hope everyone is enjoying themsleves. This place is like a day-care center.
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Revelation 13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.   .
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Revelation 13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world. .
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Revelation 13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.  Hey this is not on topic at all  Are you trying to "scare" someone so they will will be in fear like you? |
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Revelation 13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world. . Not in the least, my double posting friend. If you read Abra's post about Eve being an afterthought and that God couldn't possibly know the future and specifically, that Jesus' sacrifice is an after thought and then read the scripture that I posted, you will see that the Bible contradicts Abra and not itself. |
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Revelation 13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world. Hey this is not on topic at all Are you trying to "scare" someone so they will will be in fear like you? Please read the scripture and read the conversation in it's current form and you will find that it is your post which is off topic. |
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