The idea that there was a "fall of man" is not a fact, but a belief put forth by religious dogma. If not, where did this idea come from please?

The idea that there is "only one who can fill that void in every man" is not a fact, but a belief put forth by religious dogma. If not, where did this idea come from please?

JB

No, I didnt miss it.

and you are right, a thread like this can get to be somewhat of a full time job, the reason I stay clear for the most part, too many things I want to do.

I picked this particular article, about the story of Gilgamesh, because it said what I wanted it to and because it was one of my favorite stories from my Humanities studies - the teacher was incredibly intelligent, spoke and read, Hebrew, Greek, latin, and a host of other languages. Lucky him, he got to see some of those places too.
It is fascinating to learn how other people lived, what shaped their lives, their beliefs and culture.

I enjoy them, I enjoy the discovery, I love science, but none of those change my faith. It was not taught to me and I did not start believing as a reaction to some distress.

Really.

This idea truly sickens me. The idea that all of humanity fell out of grace from its creator. That's an extremely negative idea. I personally don't believe this sort of thing. And the idea that nailing someone to pole could somehow patch things up is an even sicker ideal.

Truly.

I have no clue where people come up with these terrible sick ideas. It must be sadomasochists creating religions. A lot of religions really went off the deep end like this. The Mayans used to have 'fake wars' just to kill of their population. I mean, the wars were real. They actually killed each other. But what they would do is set up a make pretend war almost like a game. Pitting brother against brother (I think they even included the women in these wars) and they would have a battle to kill each other. The strange thing about it is that it was considered an honor to die in those war games. So I guess there wasn't much concern about taking defensive measures.

Really weird stuff. Why people have to make God out to be so blood thirsty is beyond me. That's certainly not something that I would ever dream up for a God. If I were going to invent a God my God would be truly wise, and truly loving. None of that blood and guts crap for me.

And I would never invent a religion that has man falling from grace from his creator. Where did all that negativity come from? As many have suggested, the most likely scenario is that authoritarians wanted to instill a sense of guilt in the people.

Let's face it, many religions were not created solely by philosophers who were sincerely trying to figure out their true nature. Most religions that became organized were indeed invented by authoritarians who wanted to control the masses. That's really what drove the major religions that became well-organized. It wasn't driven by man's desire to know God, they were drive by man's desire to control other men.

That's the real truth for anyone who sincerely wants to know it.

You don't need to be nailing people on poles just to figure out your true nature. Clearly those kinds of religions were driven by authoritarians who wanted to instill feelings of guilt in their followers. I think that's as clear as cyrstal.

True...the attempt to figure out what has been established forever under some guise of intellectual discussion is fascinating to me.

People who have faith don't need "intellectual" discussion, or prove anything. Those who insist on being right even when faced with the great cloud of witnesses to God's existance...well all I can say is...

What more is there to say?

I just wonder if the myth of the "fall" might have any scientific significance within the physical universe.

I have read somewhere that it may be referring to the way matter itself sank (or slowed down) to a lower frequency or density and the lighter (astral type) mind worlds fell into a denser wave structure of matter.(third density worlds.)

Or is that getting off topic? How many religions incorporate the idea of the fall of man into their doctrines and what do they base that on?


JB

There are many other threads for the discussion of faith and religious belief systems. This one is for the discussion of religion itself, what it means, what it is, and how it came into being. It is not about personal beliefs or faith.

JB

It is interesting to notice that what James says clinges true. Authority seekers or authoritarians demanded respect and created cleverly systems to obey them or else punishment would endure whereas those philosophers who actually sat and thought about spirituality or what else is there after pondered many things were ruled out for they gave the opportunity to have everyone choose what works best for them through freewill.

I think if we want to dig deeper we have to somehow understand how the first civilizations evolved. I am sure most know better then I about them, but I will post this to skim(speed read) and perhaps questions can arise of why religion came to importance.

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BACKGROUND:

It wasn't until the end of the Ice Age around 10,000 B.C., that many things began to change which affected the people and the land. When the ice melted, it caused flooding to cover the lowland areas and new plants started to emerge. People started to farm animals and crops. The changing climate created an environment which encouraged people to settle in one place. The development of agriculture helped people to settle in villages and create communities. When they had enough crops in storage, some of the people developed specialized trades or crafts. This formed an economy since the goods could be traded. This led to the first civilizations. Since there were no written records, archaeologists have pieced together the history of the first civilizations by studying artifacts and ruins which have been discovered over time. It has been discovered that the first civilizations were distinquished by a class system of rich and poor people. A second characteristic of civilizations was that each had a ruler, priests, administrators and specialists. You will find that the first civilizations were built around rivers. The rivers were very important to the development of civilizations. The rivers provided water for farming crops which had become a catalyst for growth of each civilization.


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EARLY SETTLEMENTS:

JERICHO was located in the Jordan River Valley and included 10 acres. In about 8000 BC, a town developed and a stone wall which was 10 yards high surrounded the town. Others came to live there at a later date and built rectangular houses which they painted red. They seemed to worship ancestors since human skulls were found covered with clay with shells set in the sockets of the eyes.

CATAL HUYUK, another early settlement, was a large, busy city in what is now Turkey. It dates from 6,000 - 5,000 B.C. and was 32 acres. They had irrigation which brought water to the crops. They also had obsidian, a glass, which brought them wealth. It was used to make tools, weapons, and mirrors. These were items that could be traded. Their houses were made of mud, brick and wood and were connected where entrance was gained from the roofs. Shrines were in some of the buildings. In the shrines, plastered bulls' heads were hung on the walls maybe representing a bull-god. Red vultures were also painted on the walls attacking headless corpses.

STONEHENGE was located in England. It refers to a special construction made with giant stones. These constructions were used for burial complexes while some were ceremonial areas. Their use may have been linked to the study of astronomy and the seasons. The large stones weighed an average of 28.6 tons and were brought from the Marlborough Downs some 17.4 miles to the north. They must have had a difficult time moving them to this location. Transporting them probably required sledges, rollers, and ropes. One thousand people would have been required to move one stone.


ANCIENT CIVILIZATIONS

MESOPOTAMIAN:

Mesopotamia was located in the Middle East. The Sumerians, 4000 - 3000 BC, built the first cities of the world on the Tigris and Euphrates Rivers. It is the present location of Iraq. The cities were enclosed by large walls and had temples on top of ziggurats which were huge stepped pyramids that had flat tops. The people used irrigation to water their crops. The Sumerians were the first to develop a form of writing called pictographs on clay tablets. This finally changed to script called cuneiform. The Sumerians had homes made of reeds and were farmers. They changed to homes made with mud bricks and straw which were dried in the sun. The most important buildings were temples. They believed that gods who ruled the world lived on mountains. They believed mankind served the gods and goddesses so they brought them food, clothes and riches. The priests took care of the wealth so they became very powerful. The rulers governed the cities like kings and headed the armies. The rulers were buried in royal tombs with all of their possessions.

EGYPT:

Egypt was bounded by deserts but depended on the flooding of the Nile River for fertile land. By 5000 BC people lived all along the river. They produced large quantities of grain. Egypt was originally divided into two kingdoms, but was united in 3200 BC by the Pharaoh Menes. The Pharaoh had great power in life and after death he was believed to live among the gods. The Kings and Pharaohs had tombs built for themselves which contained everything needed in the afterlife. They had treasures they needed in the next world which were made by armies of workers. The tombs were in great pyramids. Their body was preserved by a process called mummification so it could continue on the journey to the afterlife. The body was enclosed in a mummy-case. The Egyptians were the first to use the writing system of hieroglyphics. We have learned from writings which have been found, that the Egyptians worshipped many gods.

MINOAN:

Minoan civilization was on the Island of Crete in 2000-1450 BC. It was named after a legendary King, Minos. They built many large cities and they were connected by roads. The civilization had a rich and lively world. Each city was centered around a large palace. The palaces were several stories high and had very large rooms. The rooms were painted with scenes of nature. They had four large palaces of which Knossos was the largest and it contained a residence for a king and queen, religious areas, workshops for the craftsmen, and a schoolroom. The palaces were royal residences and served as center of the government. Basements were used to store the surplus of grain, oil, wine and honey in stone boxes. Craftsmen also made jewelry and pottery. There is indication that they had bull leaping ceremonies which took place in the courtyard of the palace. The men and women would grab on to the bull's horns and turn somersaults over the animal. The people worshipped the great mother goddess. Shrines to the snake goddess were also found in their houses.

MYCENAEAN:

Mycenaean civilization was established in Greece about 2000 BC. The people were very warlike so their cities were like fortresses. They gained wealth through trade and by raiding other cities. Their trade focused on areas around the Mediterranean. The Myceneans buried their kings in shaft graves which went straight down in solid rock. They placed objects of bronze, gold, and silver by their bodies. A death mask of gold was recovered from an ancient Mycenean tomb.

INDUS VALLEY:

Indus Valley was the location of the first civilization of India about 2500 - 1500 BC. This development was around the Indus and Ganges River. In the center of the cities was a storage area for grain called a citadel. This suggest that the livlihood of the people was on farming. Houses were built in rows with streets and had a system of drains and sewers. The houses were built around courtyards.

CHINA:

China's earliest civilizations were around three large rivers: Yellow River, Yangtse, and West River as they are known today. The farmers needed the rivers for growing crops and for transportation. They also worried about floods and invasions from people of the North. This caused them to focus on defenses against attacks and control of the floods. The Shang, 1500 - 1028 BC, was the first ruling dynasty. The people lived in wooden houses and the civilization had palaces, store rooms, and tombs for kings. Silk was an important cloth and worn only by the rich. Bronze was used for ornamental purposes. Bones were used as oracles to foretell the future. Questions to gods were carved in the bones before they were heated. Cracks in the bones across the writing gave the gods' answers.

Ok, here's a thought concerning the story of "Adam and Eve".

Now it's true that this is 'religion specific' today. However it certainly wasn't religion specific when it first started out. When it first started out is was just a tale told be shamans to their tribes. It simply became a part of a larger myth as time progressed.

We all know how the story goes. God created Adam, showed Adam all the animals that he had created and had Adam name them all. But then Adam still wasn't happy so God decided to create for him a helpmate. So he put Adam to sleep and created Eve from one of Adam's ribs. So then Adam could have a helpmate.

Well, clearly this is a manmade story. In fact it's very 'man' made. It places man as being the focus of God's creation and places woman as being merely an afterthought to be Adam's helpmate. Adam is made after the image of God. Woman is made from a rib of Adam and is therefore his 'property' just like his rib was his property before it was made into a woman.

So all we need to do now is ask if this story makes sense. The answer is no, it doesn't. And the reason is very simple. The men who made up this story forgot to give Adam a purpose in life. Without a purpose why would he need a helpmate? Help with what? He had no purpose.

The story would have made much more sense the other way around. If God had first created Eve, her purpose could have been to procreate. We could easily imagine God creating Eve in such a way that she would automatically become pregnant periodically. After all, with God anything is possible. Of course, that would have been impossible with Adam unless Adam was changed into a woman.

So here we have Eve having been created first. She's tending to the Garden of Eden and raising her self-generated offspring. But then she soon finds that raising children and tending a garden at the same time is a bit of a chore. God, being all-wise and all-knowing sees her tribulations and decides to create Adam as a helpmate for her.

Now the whole thing makes sense because Eve already had a purpose and could genuinely use a helpmate, where the other way around it makes absolutely no sense at all. We could easily make up some reason then why god would decide that since Eve has a helpmate he should also contribute to help making babies.

So clearly the original story was made up by tribesmen who wanted to make the women believe that they were created by God to be the helpmates of men.

That makes perfect sense. The idea that God would have made a helpmate for Adam makes no sense at all.

Of course, I'm not suggesting that God actually made Eve first. I'm simply suggesting how religious myths got started in the first place. Clearly the story of Adam and Eve was started by men who wanted to make women feel like they were secondary to men and were meant to be men's helpmates. And clearly as the story progressed it even became more chauvinistic blaming the woman for enticing Adam to fall from the grace of God. The whole story is extremely male-chauvinistic.

I've always said that in the 60's when women were burning their bras for the sake of women's liberation they should have been burning bibles instead, that's where the true male chauvinism comes from.

In any case, this is just my thoughts on how this one mythology got started. It's not a personal belief. I believe in evolution and that man and woman evolved side-by-side. So from my point of view man and woman are perfectly egalitarian.

The other thing to consider too, is that men of ancient times had no way of knowing that they had evolved. They were totally guessing about how they got here. This is another reason why I don't personally see the value in worrying about what people thought way back then. Clearly they didn't have the knowledge that we have today. We should start anew. From scratch. Based on what we know now about the universe in which we live.

If there is one "book" that we can be sure God wrote, it's the universe itself. If they universe says we evolved, you can know that is the TRUTH. The universe isn't going to lie. We know with certainty that the universe is not just an opinion of ancient men.

We evolved, man and woman, side-by-side. That's no myth.

That story was written by the universe, not by men.

If we can't trust the universe itself to tell us the truth, then what can we trust?

The universe is the only 'book' that we know with absolute certainty not to have been tampered with by the superstitious stories of men. Why we even bother considered those ancient stories today is totally beyond me. They simply didn't know the things that we know today.

and it was the universe or at the time the skies what started religion. They looked at the sun and its importance to agriculture to even worship it. Look at the Egyptians or Indians at the time who even sacrificed to worship the sun as a god. Then they looked at the stars and connected dots to create astrological tables that would go with the Earth's cycle going around the sun.

It is true today we have attained much more knowledge in understanding why people at the time believed in such superstitions. People then had more superstitions also, although I must add people still have them today. Friday the 13th, being under a ladder, salt thrown over your shoulder, etc. etc.

but to study more about our existence you suggest we look into the universe. There we are lost of explanation. We haven't even had a chance to glimpse a fraction of the universe with the latest technology today. We know of milky ways, a few planets, different size suns, but not enough to know how or why it all started. We have theories like the various Big Bangs scientist concluded to, we have energy waves that float in space, radiation, magnitic fields, loop holes, but how can this all revolve around how we as a whole started?

Why we don't even have proof of spirits or souls, yet most of the people on this planet believe in such things. They claim they witnessed it, but could it just be more use of our imagination?

OK - this might be way too broad a topic. We need to narrow it into something that can capture the focus of the discussion.

Smiless has gotten the closest by bringing up the ancient civilization, but I think this discussion begins further back than even that.

Not too many years ago, primitive man was thought to lack the intellect to relate to the philosophy of religious dogma or even to superstition. There have been a many more recent finds that indicate primitive man held enough superstitions to conclude some dogmatic religious belief.

Recent, accidental, mumifications of primitive man have been found. Around and on the mummy were the preserved artifacts that lead anthropologists to the conclusions above.

So even, LONG before there was any written language, artifacts were being made.

Without exception, it seems that these artifacts are intrinsic to the 'natural' world that primitive man was unable to explain. The moon, stars, weather, sun, even birth, death. While primitive man seemed to understand that death meant the individual would not wake up, it was not understood why a person stopped being. Even primitive man purposely placed food, and artifacts and even toys with their dead.

So MY THEORY, would be something in line with the fact that our brain evolved like the rest our bodies. In its evolution it developed a tendancy toward "inherant" qualities. Inherant qualities served specifically as 'survival' qualities, first and foremost. The more important and nececessary, overall, a quality was, the more imbedded the quality became.

For example, the science of psychology has been able to proof that there are some develomental domains of the human individual, that cross all cutural and societal norms. What they don't know is if these are genetically inscribed, as in our DNA or if they are simply intrinsic to humans as instincts are to animals. We know that skin color, hair color and eye color are genetic, at the DNA level, and we understand why - but we are still trying to figure out why we behave as we do.

One of the questions is Why have humans insisted on religion, superstitions, and dogamtic belief systems, even after thousands of failed beliefs?

OK - does this get us where we're going? Are we more focused on this topic?

What do you all think?

"Abracadabra" has always been on the right path as to how religion should be discuss but unfortunely it falls on deaf ears ..if religion is to be discuss truthfuly then the God intentions and the God's wants and needs have to be discuss ..

the bible the Koran or any other religious scriptures could be debated, mis-interpeted or decend into arguments about who's right or wrong that can go on until the stars fizzle out but the bottom line is that it's all about the God and nothing lesser than the God matters ..you either will do as the God saids or you don't but either way why would the God care ..

to find out about religion it should be discuss logical above or on the same level of the God and that is what "Abracadabra" tries to do

One of the questions is Why have humans insisted on religion, superstitions, and dogamtic belief systems, even after thousands of failed beliefs?

OK - does this get us where we're going? Are we more focused on this topic?

What do you all think?


reply: yes we are on topic!

Why do people absolutely still believe in the supernatural, spirits, ghosts, souls, or energy that escapes the body when one dies?


Just recently I had a conversation with Jeannie about spirits and souls. I said that most of the people on this planet believe in a soul or spirit! They either have it told to them that it is true for many many years until they believe it or they somehow experienced it personally. If it could be something to do with hallucination or strong imagination to have helped guide this to create a phenomenal and believable story to influence many more to believe it to be true and as a fact then maybe this is why it continues to strive strong today.

Or maybe because many think about death alot. What happens afterwords and envision the best possible story to believe in and that is heaven or a peace of mind, yet even though their is no concrete evidence to know what happens when one passes away.

So I thought by trying to find the first civilization would help find us a better understanding, but again James said looking at what we know now and of the universe we could possibily find answers.

perhaps one would have to study more intensively psychology to understand more about the extrodinary and why our brains create such imaginations.

John Nash's life

West Virginian John Nash earned a Ph.D. in mathematics from Princeton for foundational work on the theory of noncooperative games, published in 1950. He accepted a position at MIT, where he met Alicia Larde, a student to whom he taught multivariable calculus. They married and conceived a son before Nash was involuntarily committed to a psychiatric hospital. In the next few decades, Nash experienced both remission and relapse of his paranoid schizophrenia. Cared for by Alicia at their home near Princeton, he gradually rejoined the academic community and learned to reject paranoid thoughts. His genius is diminished, but he is valued by his family and honored by his colleagues. He was awarded the 1994 Nobel Prize in Economics for his early work in game theory.


schizophrenia = it is odd that many would say he has contact with spirits. Who is to say that they weren't there??

Did he see something we didn't?

or is it just a huge imagination beyond what we can comprehend?

The Sumerian Culture, which dates back to 6,000 BC, is the oldest known culture on Earth. Even today we still use the same Mathematical system, Calendar, and Time as they created it so long ago. Since we have the evidence left over today, 6,000 years later, we can see similarities between what they had then, and what we have now.

The Sumerians describe Planet X as being very far from Earth at times, (roughly 30,000,000,000) miles away at it's farthest point from us in orbit. This would make it rather difficult to travel back and forth between the two planets if separated by so much of a distance.

The Sumerians had amazing knowledge of the solar system, and of their GODS coming down to Earth. They also tell of another being that they described in our terms as "Android Beings". The Sumerians tell us that the anunnaki had "helpers" that often performed such tasks as flying their craft , or helping with miscellaneous needs. The Sumerians directly explain that these "Helpers" we not alive, but acted as so...

Not only did they make figurines of the visitors, they also wrote down in Cuneiform text (on stone) what took place during the encounters with these "Android Beings". Their are many stories where Emissaries of GOD helped out in one way or another.

Is it possible that the Greys were created by the anunnaki as "Watchers" to oversee their experiments here on earth? If the anunnaki are the GODS spoken about in all ancient texts and even the Modern Bible, then it is possible that they could have also created an "Android Race" aside from creating humans.

Maintaining the idea that the anunnaki really do exist on Nibiru (planet X), and they created man using Genetic Engineering thousands of years ago, then it makes sense that they would have quite an interest in us. We might be one of their grandest experiments.

What if they also experimented with other species OFF the planet Earth. If the anunnaki exist, then there are also MANY other races on other planets as well. This would only be logical. Maybe the anunnaki also used a mix between the known "ZETAS" or "GREYS" and created an Android race to serve the anunnaki.

When we analyze the descriptions of Aliens from people who claim to have been abducted, most of the aliens are described as being small grey beings that have large eyes, a bulbous head, and act almost "Android" like.

Through the great works of scholars such as Zecharia Sitchin and Lloyd Pye, we have learned that the anunnaki are said to have created Humans from the primitive man already here, and combined their genes with the primitive Neanderthal to create us.


Do you believe this to be true or is it a clever minds imagination?

I think psychology barely scratches the surface of the true nature of the human consciousness.




I would not be so pragmatic to say that having contact with the unseen or with spirits is "schizophrenia."

All of reality could be an illusion or manifestation of the collective mind or just the mind. When illusions don't always agree or when one person manifests different perceptions we are likely to have a name for it because we can't agree on what it is or we don't understand it.

Could be just a glitch in the matrix.

My question, if I could have it answered would be this. Could an advanced ancient society have instilled the idea of a god and worship on primitive mankind?

I believe there is evidence of an advanced society of beings, much like us that may have existed long before the advent of the current human population.

If not, could man himself have looked up to the stars and been overwhelmed with a feeling of something that lead him to feel the presence of something more?

JB

hmm? `~`, (1), \/
..
~~ >< )(
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==
^>~~ <>----

In South America, there are roads carved into the earth that are only truly discernible as images in caricature of animals and such on this planet.

Truly, very vivid when viewed from above, from the sky.

Odd to think that they were amusing themselves and not trying to communicate something visible to what could be perceived as extra terrestrial beings hovering in crafts above the earth in their time.

There are ancient mayan depictions of what appears to be a pilot iun a craft of some sort.

Even sextants and objects that look eerily like stadia found on transits used to survey the earth with trigonometric functions to establish specific locations.

All very intriguing.

Even the silence of that culture.

Their calender too, and the mystery surrounding that time piece.

I bring it up because they also believed in the blood sacrifice of their king...and other sacrifices of blood letting.

It is apprent that ancient civilizations leave remnants of edifices, but little evidence of the spiritual presence of their day.

there are references to such influences but not clear ones and certainly not coherent by today's standards through imperical research which has the arduous task of trying to imagine the possibilities and connections to the spiritual influences we all live with daily.

But there is this evidence of a fascination and preoccupation with death surrounding life.

Out of sight, but not out of mind...perhaps.

and the world grows more civil, ever so slowly.

But it is still a very dangerous place and our environment is very hostile more so from the doings of man than the amimal kingdom with which we share this oasis.

Civil, yet dangerous.

Very precarious, indeed.

When I observe the possibilities for us in the future, I cannot help but be pessimistic about this incessant need for warfare and anhilation that accompanies our watch to be the real and present danger that defies humanity and good will.

I see an economic struggle unfolding that may not bring us back to our roots before a strafing of humanity decimates the consumer levels of support required for a simpler life left to the survivors to eck out of the ruination threatening to be a destiny or a fate of collateral value, even if not intentional.


The Tower of Babel comes to mind.

What was it that makes that story so haunting?

Regardless of whether or not it actually happened as depicted, it does seem plausible that it did.

If man were on his way to understand God by reaching up to God with this tower, then why the failure of it?

Why wrap it up in a tale?

And why try to repeat it in other ways?

There are mysteries surrounding the thinking of men of any age, but is it truly just the heart attitude that is critical to finding the meaning of life?

Does all of our thinking and plotting and planning actually not matter as far as success in life is concerned?

Could it be a matter of the heart alone?

The intents of the heart due their rightful expression through the bridling of the overactive imagination and inventiveness that accompanies man?

It may well be the best course for all and the least course for self preservation, but preservation of the whole may be a quality and not a quantity.

a beautiful paradox.


waiting in the wings..........

Here's a point to test out this thread. What - if any "scientific" proof exists on any spiritual philosophy? Be it the fall - reincarnation - astral projection - ufo's - engrams (for the scientologists in the group)...

The problem with your logic here Abra - is that your perception is that God created "Eve" as an afterthought. As though He hadn't thought of it. It is the foundation of the conclusions you draw there after - such as woman being "Man's property". Yet - the God who created Adam and Eve does not exist within a time constraint. So the idea that Eve was created as an afterthought is absurd. What I often wonder about is that you always seem to see these biblical accounts as absurd - rather than your interpretation or perception of them as being absurd. It only further convinces me that the account is trustworthy, for your logic continues to show me that your interpretations aren't the correct one's - so all I'm left with is a firmer belief that these "myths" as you say - are true.

"Primitive Man"? Where did this concept come from? This is Darwinian dogma, with no more substance to it than Adam and Eve.