Ok, then ... lets start this again.

Please state your question, that I missed, due to my tendancy to overreact.

My question was (to a better extent), why do you consider yourself to be an athiest, when a true athiest doesn't really believe in anything?

That is not strictly true.

An athiest doesnt believe in a higher existance, or has rejected the concept of theism.

I am both.

I dont believe that god exists. In any form. Allah/God/Jehovah are all figments of man's imagination. I see no proof that they exist, and no one has come up with anything to change that.

Apart from quoting scriptures at me and making vagueries about creationism, I have no proof that can come up with the reasons for believing in a deity.

I pick these three because I have done the most reading about them.

Im obviously from the West (A Brit), and I currently live in the Middle East (Egypt)
So, I have been exposed to the two biggest religions there are.

Neither of them are particularly palatable to me.

That is my religious view.

Other than that, I obviously have belief in other things, but unless you have something in mind, Im not sure you would want to have me list them all

I saw several months ago was a picture. on the ground was the shape of Noah's Ark the imprint was on the ground

That is not strictly true.

An athiest doesnt believe in a higher existance, or has rejected the concept of theism.

I am both.

I dont believe that god exists. In any form. Allah/God/Jehovah are all figments of man's imagination. I see no proof that they exist, and no one has come up with anything to change that.

Apart from quoting scriptures at me and making vagueries about creationism, I have no proof that can come up with the reasons for believing in a deity.

I pick these three because I have done the most reading about them.

Im obviously from the West (A Brit), and I currently live in the Middle East (Egypt)
So, I have been exposed to the two biggest religions there are.

Neither of them are particularly palatable to me.

That is my religious view.

Other than that, I obviously have belief in other things, but unless you have something in mind, Im not sure you would want to have me list them all

I think that's a good answer! I really do! Thank you for sharing, you gave some great insights. Obviously, as you had said before, we'd disagree on some things.

IMHO, I believe there is a God, and He is real. I believe this spiritually, and in both the way I was raised and what is outlined in the Bible.

NOW, with that being said, I believe in God also based on secular reasoning, which is:

1. Do you believe there is evil in the world? You know killing, raping, stealing, etc.? If your answer is Yes, then we move on to question 2:

2. Do you believe there is good in the world? You know, giving to charity, helping the old lady across the street, etc? If your answer is Yes to that as well, we move on to question 3:

3. So you do believe there is BOTH evil and good in the world. 2 equal and opposing forces, etc? OK, if your answer is yes to that, go to question 4:

4. So if you believe in good and evil, you have to believe in a moral law, for if there is no moral law, there can be no good or evil. If you answer yes to that, go to question 5:

5. If you do believe in a moral law, then you have to believe that there was a moral law giver...because if you do not have a moral law giver, there is no moral law, no moral law, no good or evil...

If you answered yes to that question, one final question remains: Who gave the moral law?

Why secretly? Is it such a shameful thing?
I'd be ashamed if I called on something that doesnt exist!
and how do you secretly openly call on something?




I discovered logic, and science, and I learned that the existence of the world can be explained naturally, without magic. Then I learned that the bible was so unreliable, so full of contradictions, so full of really awful stuff.

Then I learned the hatred that christians will bear towards someone like me, who denies the existence of their ghosts...

And then I learned that the world is filled with people like me.

TRY THIS.
Really really look for Santa Claus.
Dare him to reveal himself to you.
THIS IS NOT A JOKE.
This is a real analogy.
Ask Santa to reveal himself and do it persistently, and you will be convinced.
If you open your heart to him, you will come to know him personally. The choice is yours.

Do you see the futility of this? You could no more believe in Santa than I could believe in a god. Could you really and earnestly ask Santa to reveal himself to you? Or Zeus? Or Isis? Or Shiva? Or Brahma?
You are an ATHEIST in respect to these other gods, just like me. I just believe in one less god than you do.

I constantly get told to "Open up your heart to Jesus", which I take to mean "Emotionally bend-over, drop your trousers and accept god-belief, because it will make you feel better.

Ignore your rational thinking process. Plug up your reasoning ability.
Base your opinion on your emotions, not your logic."

Well, sorry, I don't work that way. I can't be bribed to suspend critical thinking by the promise of eternal life, nor with the threats of eternal pain.

.. and neither as a scientist, should the OP

Btw,You are not on this forum by accident .
No one is.

Makes the world go around



so far, we are doing ok. I am happy to "live & let live". If it is what you are happy with, then thats fine too.



Ok ... Im going to stop you there, to answer your questions that you put to yourself.



Actually, no, I dont. I believe that man is responsible and should be responsible, for his own actions. No one can force another to do something voluntarily.
So, killing, raping and stealing, are not evil, they are just one person's actions (hopefully not all in one go)


Going have to be a negative on here too
The interaction between two human beings is based upon mutual respect. If you offer to help an old lady across the road, then that offer comes from within you. It is a desire to assist a person less well apportioned than yourself.

I have offered to help with baggage, baby carriages, even the odd heaving a wheel back on to a car in the middle of the Malaysian jungle, because without it, life becomes more uncomfortable for the person struggling.
Im not an evil person, nor am I a good person. I am just a human being trying to make life as comfortable for myself as possible.

If I feel the desire to help someone, it is because I feel good about myself, and want to share my positivity.




I've broken two rules by getting this far so I think I may have answered this bit already ...



But if you dont believe in the good/evil scenario and you believe that each human being should take responsibility for his/her actions, then there can be no possibility of morality.

Morality means a code of conduct or morality refers to an ideal code of conduct, one which would be espoused in preference to alternatives by all rational people, or 'morality' is synonymous with ethics, the systematic philosophical study of the moral domain.

Ethics seek to address questions such as how a moral outcome can be achieved in a specific situation.

But I dont believe that the laws we have in our respective societies make us morally obligated to be good or evil.

I am not morally obliged to help the old dear across the road. I make a conscious choice to do so, because, some day, some fit 19 year old fun-bunny may help my wizened, decrepit old frame across the road and I will feel good about myself again. Even if it is for only a moment.



Dont know about this one, as I've been pretty negative so far .. sorry



so, you see, I can still justify my existence and the actions I choose to partake in, without having someone else take credit for it.

I do it, because I want to. I dont kill, rape and steal, because I dont want to.

I believe that we have a free will to choose. If I choose to kill someone, that may not make me evil per se, but the act itself will be evil. If I choose to help the little old lady across the street, the act itself may be good, but that doesn't make me a good person, make sense? It's not so much a person THEMSELVES being evil or good, bu tthe ACT that they choose. (I should have clarified this more, my apologies).

But how do you rate what is, and what isnt good or evil?

An example.

If you are a reasonably comfortable man. You have a nice house, a housemaid who thinks you are a marvellous employer, a beautiful wife, two intelligent, well behaved teenage children (ok, this is now a bit far fetched, but stick with it )
You have a very good business and it makes you a lot of money.

You choose to spend that money on gold bullion. You store it in your cellar, covered with a tarpaulin. You reason that gold is a very effective way of keeping a stable economy. Life for you is great.

Now, me, on the other hand, I am a person wanted by the law. I have been wrongly convicted of a crime, and I escaped justice. My wife has left me, my children disowned me. I have not eaten for days, and to be honest, I am desperate. The only person to show me a kindness was a dear old lady who found me asleep in her garage, after I had broken in. she was on her way to her church, and after she had made sure I was warm and dry, she left me a bacon sandwich and a cup of tea.

One night, that is heavily raining, I seek shelter in your lean-to at the side of your house.
Looking through your cellar window, I see you lift up a tarpaulin and place on more bar of gold on to the stack.

So, when you go back up stairs, I open the window, slide down the wall and look a the pile of gold stacked neatly.

I take some ... in fact, I come back three or four times to take more.

But I dont take it all, because in my former life I was a very honourable man. I take enough for me to get out of the country, and I go to the old woman's church and leave the rest on the altar covered by a cloth.

The church takes it and uses it for the poor.

What good or evil acts have been committed?

True. It confirms my thoughts about the futile nature of religion and the people that practice it.

But it does give a very good platform to debate.

It would be rather nice to find a muslim to debate with though.

Just for a change.

It seems to me that there is much I can't explain.

I can't explain this feeling of oneness with everything. I can't explain the vibration I feel when I am next to a tree or near the water. I call it life and that is my religion ... and nature ... my church ...

There is some force that animates it all and it doesn't matter to me if you call that God, source, universe, energy or plank ... it is, after all, just a word.

The God described in most books speaks of some separate entity that resembles an ego in the sky - God based upon man more than man is based upon God. That does not resonate with me.

The truth is that no one truly knows. We can only go by what resonates as truth for us.

What you call lost might just be more truth than many are willing or able to admit.