But my heart is not closed off to God and as never been closed off to God.

I'm not an atheist, and I never have been.

I just reject the biblical picture as having anything to do with God. I don't believe that God had himself nailed to a pole to save my butt. I don't believe that.

That doesn't mean that I don't believe there is a God.

I'm not an atheist.

However, I wouldn't say that atheists have hardened hearts anyway. If they don't believe in a God for logical reasons then what's wrong with that?

I never rejected God Feral.

I simply rejected a picture of God that I believe to be false.

That's not the same as rejecting God.

well I know god loves me,.. F$&K everyone else.

What causes you to assume it is? When he refers to the Biblical picture of God, you assume he is talking about the true Godhead because that is what you happen to believe.

But he is not talking about the true God Feral because he does not believe that the Biblical picture of God is the true God.

He speaks of this character and calls it "God" because that is what you believe it is. But this is the god he does not believe in.

Personally I don't think he should refer to it as god at all.

But....
This is another perfect example of how Christians truly believe that they ....and they alone know and OWN GOD.

When I reject the Biblical God you know as "Jehovah," in my heart and mind, I am rejecting a false God. I think the Biblical God is a false picture of God.

If any such being actually existed and walked the earth, I am guessing this being was not the true God but a fallen angel or an alien.

I am not an atheist either Feral.

But...I don't claim to know the true nature of God, and I don't accept the Biblical picture or story as truth either.

Again, that does not mean I reject "God," it only means that I reject your idea of God which is the Biblical picture of God that you believe in. Christians don't own copyright on God.

JB

Its no living if you stand outside the fire of persicution, I personally have a problem with people in the for-front of Christianity in this country! People like Pat Robertson (who called 4 Hugo Chavez ASSASSANATION on National Television but Yet totally supported a Man by the name of Charles Taylor, the president of Liberia, who is now on trial in the hague 4 war crimes against humanity during the conflict in Sierra Leone, what he didnt tell u was that Pat Robertson owns 60% of the productive diamond mines in Liberia and has a made both himself and Charles Taylor a very rich man.

I think its people like Pat Robertson and the late Jerry Falwell, and people like Jim Baker and Jimmy Swaggert, i think these people have distorted what Christianty really means and in my view these people and people like them are Domestic Terriorist who do nothing but inflict there own form of Brain washing on the people that have chosen to look to people like them for guidance.

My sister refuses to use the word "god" and rolls her eyes every time I use the word.

Many pantheists also refuse to use the word 'god'. Because the see that word as being soiled and stained by the religious bigotry that arises from religions that view "gods" as being the ultimate authoritarians.

All Mediterranean mythologies used the term "God" to refer to human-like personalities that are authorities. Their Gods want to rule the world (a human ambition really)

Christianity is the epitome of arrogance claiming that their God is the King of Kings and Lord of Lords, and every knee shall bow and ever tongue shall confess that their God rules over all others.

It's total bull crap. It's a childish mentality, "My god is bigger than your god".

So a lot of people have come to detest the very word "God" because that word has come to represent egotistical authoritarianism.

I've never really viewed God that way. And so for me personally I don't think of God as being an egotistical pig like the Christians do.

I use the word "god" to mean the true spiritual essence of all of creation.

In fact, I used to always spell 'god' using a lowercase 'g' because god is neither egotistical, nor an authoritarian. In fact god isn't person-like at all. It's a spiritual life force that as absolutely no egotistical ambitions to become the king of kings or lord of lords, and it doesn't sit in a thorn ruling over its creations.

I don't use the term 'god' in the same sense as it was used in Mediterranean mythologies of the ancient Greeks, Jews, and Egyptians.

In fact I think I'll go back to using the word in lowercase again. The only problem is that when I refer to the biblical God, I have to use uppercase, because that is a reference to an egotistical God of Mediterranean origin. That picture of "god" truly is an egotistical picture of a person-like God that has a humongous ego and accompanying humanistic fascist ambitions.

OK…I’ll bite…..But first I need clarification. From previous posts I have read of yours I was under the impression that you did believe in God just not the Biblical God. If that is incorrect, please correct me and read no further.

Do you believe in one God or many Gods?

Do you believe that one God created all or do you believe that all that we see and hear is the combined effort of many Gods?

I of course believe that All was created by one God. I disagree with the notion that God is an egotistical pig but if I am correct about God creating ALL then I think that God just might be justified in taking a little pride in their work and being a little upset when that work isn’t respected.

you are just being like those fundamentalist christians who read the bible word by word.
u r failing exactly at the same point which you so harshly criticize.
then again my questions remain unanswered:
who is who?
who is the hypocrite?
who is the fundamentalist who uses the Bible to fullfill his/her own personal agendas?

All religions are full of myths and contradictions . The world is full of misery , injustice , disasters , illnesses , pain , suffering ....etc and some folks keep on singing how their "GOD"
is love ....etc . They should wake up and be realistic and see the planet as it is and not as it is said by ...some mythology .
ABRA : .

This is a lie abra.....you told me you rejected God when he didn't answer your prayers...I am not making this up....you said it. This is where I made the claim of a hardened heart.....I know your a good man abra....and I also know your beliefs.

1) contradictions for those who don't take the time to study and analyze. If I have the preconceived idea that something (anything in particular) is delutional, and I don't take the time to make a serious research. I will be very biased toward this thing. Such bias will make me elaborated several kinds of fallacies to justify why such a thing is delusional.

2) as for natural disasters. nature has its own mechanisms which have to follow a process. Usually when natural disasters happen is because the earth is purging itself. Therefore, it follows that it would be very delusional to blame God for something that naturally has to happen.

3) as for human suffering per se, it is caused by the human being himself (talking about the specie not anybody in particular). Now somebody my argue that why an innocent person has to suffer if this person has not done anything. Because the agressor is a merciless outcast. Is God's fault that this merciless outcast attacked an innocent?
Ofcourse it is not God's fault. It is only and only the agressor's fault.

Then again we fall down in the fallacy of blaming God for actions which are either inherently natural or actions which come from a sick mind which does not have to do anything with God.

Ofcourse is not fair for innocent people to suffer, yet that is our mission as humans try to help at the best of our abilities those who are in either physical or emotional pain.

Because:

1 And seeing the multitudes, he went up into a mountain, and when he was set down, his disciples came unto him. 2 And opening his mouth he taught them, saying: 3 Blessed are the poor in spirit: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven. 4 Blessed are the meek: for they shall possess the land. 5 Blessed are they that mourn: for they shall be comforted. 6 Blessed are they that hunger and thirst after justice: for they shall have their fill. 7 Blessed are the merciful: for they shall obtain mercy. 8 Blessed are the clean of heart: they shall see God. 9 Blessed are the peacemakers: for they shall be called the children of God. 10 Blessed are they that suffer persecution for justice' sake: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven. 11 Blessed are ye when they shall revile you, and persecute you, and speak all that is evil against you, untruly, for my sake: 12 Be glad and rejoice for your reward is very great in heaven. For so they persecuted the prophets that were before you.

Mathew 5, 1-12

I can see how you could be easily confused by this. The reason being that you genuinley can't separate the idea of religion (or doctrine) from God.

What I might have said is that I rejected the biblical notion of God. Or I might have said that I rejected the notion that Jesus is God.

Whatever I said, you took it to mean that I was 'rejecting God'.

But ulimately what happened was the I came to the realization that the bibilcal picture of God can't be true.

At that point it would be impossible to reject a God that I don't even believe in.

The only way, I could possibly 'reject God', is to first believe that the God actually exists, and then flatly deny it's authority.

That would be 'rejecting God'.

You can't reject something that you don't believe in.

You can, however, come to the realization that something you thought you believed is not true.

Actually, being a scientist may have a large bit to do with my views. At one time I believed in absolute time and space in the Newtonian sense. Then I learned about relativity and came to realize that the Newtonian picture of time and space is simply wrong.

I actually went through that ordeal very close to the same time when I realized the bibilcal picture of God can't be true.

It would be utterly silly to become angry with "God" a picture of a God that I had just realized can't be true.

That would be like becoming angry with a telephone pole because it isn't alive.

When do you stop and realize that you're directing anger at something that never had any reality in the first place?

I never became angry with God. But I did become angry with the people who led me astray by claiming that the picture was true when the real truth is that they can't possibly know, and should even know better.

Especially at this point in my life now. I can see that the whole picture is so totally absurd it's impossible for me to understand how anyone can truly believe it.

Lonelywalker wrote:



This does not hold water for the people who have started out believing in the Bible and after serious and in depth study have concluded that it can't be true.

It also describes a friend of mine who is a pastor of the Church of God, who is also quite scientific minded who searches specifically for evidence that the Bible is correct and tries to twist what he knows to be true about the solar system with what he has been taught from the Bible and the stories that he preaches to his congregation about certain miracles and prophecies. His whole life and retirement is tied up in his Church. He can't afford to discover that he is wrong so he continues to look for evidence that he is right. He has too much to loose to find himself wrong. He cannot look at it objectively.

JB

I know Abra to be as kind as anyone I know. His heart is full and loving to all human-kind. His God is everyone, everything, himself. I understand Abra to not believe in the God that I do...but his God sometimes sounds more loving and kind than mine. Abras God is not jealous. He sees God as the mother of all universal natures and living things. How can we say he doesn't believe in God?? He does....just not like I do. His God isn't the same one as we read in the bible. He stands out on a limb and says that his God is all loving...all consuming of all that is right, and all that is good. The God that Abra believes in doesn't harm, or threaten...or punish when we make mistakes. I love you Abra.

I see you as wonderful, intelligent and warm.

Kat

So when a new born is born from second one with pain and suffering it is a human's fault ?. According to your logic your " God " is the aggressor . So your " God ' and your Jesus are The " the aggressors ,and the merciless outcasts ".
I am just following your logic here . .

Well then I am going to assume that I misunderstood....and humble apologies abra.

I have a few thoughts about the bible and christianity if you are interested for anyone who is not please skip my entry.

1. Regardless of what is claimed by "blind faith" followers the bible was written by men rather than god. Even the bible itself indicates it was written by men, why people take a leap and call it the "word of god" as if it was etched into pages by fire is a mystery to me and a large percentage of the population. My great Aunt once put it pointedly well by saying the bible had been written by old men with failing memories because many of the passages were indeed written long after with specific goals or messages in mind.

2. What is in the bible so far as the passages used is a collection of letters or small books written by individuals. Some of it we can believe is complete text, while some is quite probably edited by those that put it all together. This is the way people put together books or "volumes" and the bible is not a book it is a volume or collection of books.

3. Many of the things said in the bible in general are not understood by modern people including most christians. The good feeling they get rewarded with by being good blind faith followers encourages them not to question and ruin that bliss. Most are taught from childhood just what to think by everyone in their church, preacher, priest, sunday school teacher, or congrgation member. Many of these people don't know the bible at all other from condensed sermons because they didn't read it completely, or understand the wording. Many phrases in the bible were translated repeatedly, and even if translated correctly still lost their significance. The bible is the most commonly read ancient work in exisitence that exists in a somewhat ancient form in many interpretations, and it takes hours and hours of reading third party sources just to understand what some of the phrases or language mean in context before even reading the passages themselves.

4. The Faith was dressed up, augmented, and completed by a group of people not approved by god or christ but enabled by political power. The bible is a reminder of something divine without being completely divine itself because it is a work of flawed man. (we are all flawed and all women were denied input from the bible so men take all the blame).

5. Even if you take the bible as the direct word of God, and then read it as if you know nothing about Christianity and then spend an extended amount of time among Christians the deviations of the church and taught following are mind boggling. it is far from being the fault of a individual other than not doing their homework. It is the fault of the church, that is the established dogma that taught rigid control for so many centuries and burned people to death for different opinions of faith that they accepted hostility which is against all teachings is staggering to the mind. It is not so easy to just re-vamp centuries of teachings even if they contradict the stated purpose of the teachings.

6. It has been the long standing practice of the organized church to stomp brutally any difference in opinion or non believer in the interest of preventing any soul searching that would be prone to point out the contradictions of the bible, or the fact that the church and congregations as a majority don't even follow the teachings of the bible, and practically ignore what Christ taught.

7. When youd dispute the bible even if you are trying to return someone to their true God even if you are fighting to free their soul from the shackles of imperfect men and return it to their God, you are facing 1500 years of unforgiving unwavering dogma. The Church built self protection into the belief system that never even existed in the time of the bible or Jesus, by declaring anyone who disagreed as a sinner or at war with the church. This has nothing to do with God, or Christ, or true Christianity, it has to do with a cultural slavery movement propogated by the church which operated on profit. (or did you never note all of those fine vestments and rings and jeweled pieces worn by bishops over the centuries?)

8. It takes more strength than many can muster to recognize the difference between seperation from their belief, and seperation from the dogma of church, because fear of death or fear as hell has been used as a powerful motivator throughout the centuries.

9. I am ok, you are ok, we are ok, and they are ok. Anyone who can't accept the differences is acting on animal fear instinct, and rightly so, because disputing the church or it's madates used to result in being executed so it was a matter of survival to pound the automatic reaction of rejection into everyone to prevent from having to have to watch your child executed before you. I know it's not right, but it is a lot to ask a person to overcome.

i believe the bible was written to be primarily
thought provoking, educational and allegorical.

so what if it is self-contradictory and anachronistic
and silly and inscrutable? i scrutinize it anyway!!



IT'S NOT TO BE TAKEN LITERALLY!

i'm not tired of hearing Abra being called names
either. i think it should be ok to have a friendly
disagreement or three in the case of the trinity.

at least he doesn't throw kittens at mormons like
you-know-who!

<-----non kitten throwing at mormon person.

In all of the All.....if your tread is light upon the earth, and your heart is filled with grace, and kindness for the basic goodness of humanity, then the rest is so much Blah blah blah...

Really James... you know what you know, and you do the best that you can, with Who you are and what you have available to you.




I quite enjoy this bible thingo, it has lots of short stories in it.

what does the Tao say ... something about if you can name it ... that is not the way ...

my my we humans do like our labels don't we ... it gives us categories for people ... we then file them away in our brains under the right index card ... and then we interact with them based upon past experiences noted in that particular file ...

trouble is ... what if we are wrong... and we have misfiled them...

a judgment upon someone alters our interaction ... and we stop experience the who of them ... in favour of what we think of them ... which at worst is not accurate at all and at best ... incomplete...


When I hear someone say that they only speak the truth ... it is important to understand that it is only truth for them ... it is one perspective ... and all of us have been wrong at one time or another ... no one is infallible ...

Oops...guess that was real Godly......

Kat