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| Topic: Inherent logical problems with One/ Pantheism... | |
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 Now that everbody is thinkin'... Would it be ok if I just built a sandbox over there---------> So I can make some sandcastles with moats and stuff? Sure. |
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Oih....thanik youi wiise speill cheicker...
I huimbly boiw tio yoiur serviices... Wheire iis tihe siaw? |
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Edited by
Jeanniebean
on
Mon 03/31/08 08:09 PM
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Feral, Although I cannot agree with your personal commentary, I too feel that Pantheistic thought, when based on the concept of one-ness, is nothing more than atheism re-constructed to suit those who want to believe in a higher power but do not find personal comfort in other religious beliefs... By it's own construction, pantheism self-destructs upon deeper logical consideration of it's own foundational premise. It requires a notion of separate, no matter how you slice the pie. One finger cannot point at itself. Therefore, the recognition of it's own need to be separate in order to experience itself cannot be had. Both your point and Feralcat's point that pantheism is atheism reconstructed is an interesting P.O.V. I don't really subscribe to the idea that pantheism is "Nature" as in Feral's post as I see the earth itself as an entity of its own right, and it also has a higher self which happens to be having the "planet" experience.All plants and animals and even primative mankind are manifested by the earth. Nor do I subscribe to the wiccan idea of the worship of the earth mother or "goddess." I have only been labeled "pantheist" by others because of my belief that we are all connected, which is supported by quantum physics. That we are all "connected" does not mean that we are the sum total of a being one might call or choose to identify as "God." So in this vast and complicated universe of all sorts of beings there may very well be rulers, scientists, and powerful entities that could be mistaken for, or even worshiped as Gods. Whether there is one at the top of the hierarchy who is the big "boss god" one does not really know for sure. But if the universes are governed by a hierarchy of beings, angels, or aliens, or what ever, I can easily imagine how they could be at war with each other as they did their busy work of creating and designing different life forms on different planets. I still maintain that we are all connected, at least in this universal body. There may be others,(universal bodies) who knows, which are separate from us. But I don't think we are lost or abandoned, nor do I think we die when our bodies fail us, but then one can't be sure no matter how sure they think they are...... Perhaps I am closer to an atheist than anything else, but I do believe there are others... perhaps gods, perhaps just others.. There are many wondrous things that we do not know.... JB |
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Oh....thank you wise spell checker... I humbly bow to your services... Where is the saw? Spell checker? Thank firefox, I just right click! BTW: It's in your ankle, you can dig in with your teeth to find it! |
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Now that everbody is thinkin'... Would it be ok if I just built a sandbox over there---------> So I can make some sandcastles with moats and stuff? Sandcastles? With moats? Yes!!!! I am all over THAT! 
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 Did I hear my name mentioned?
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Ya know Jeannie,
There is a woman whom I love so so dearly, she is I... in so many ways... we are of one, and have been for what seems like an eternity. This woman who reminded me who I was gets bothered by witnessing my participation in threads such as this, where it seems like my goal is to de-construct one's beliefs. It is very hard for some to perceive what I do, and why. In my mind there lies something that I am aware of but cannot describe. At times, I work backwards to the goal of assessing the conclusion, should a conclusion have been previously drawn. I have never thought inside of a box. I have never been a follower. It is not in me. I know not of that existence. I cannot comprehend things unless they go through the mill of my mind. It is dangerous ground to walk upon out loud... There is much to be risked, regarding both, how I am being perceived, and anothers learned stability, should one's reality be completely wrapped up into that which I contemplate out loud. There are no rights and wrongs, per se... I steer clear of those terms as often as my conscious mind allows... There is evidence of that which is greater than us, and we all assess it within our own measure of ability, according to that which we have already accepted as our own personal truth. If it brings good upon the face of this earth... do it.  |
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Ya know Jeannie, There is a woman whom I love so so dearly, she is I... in so many ways... we are of one, and have been for what seems like an eternity. This woman who reminded me who I was gets bothered by witnessing my participation in threads such as this, where it seems like my goal is to de-construct one's beliefs. It is very hard for some to perceive what I do, and why. In my mind there lies something that I am aware of but cannot describe. At times, I work backwards to the goal of assessing the conclusion, should a conclusion have been previously drawn. I have never thought inside of a box. I have never been a follower. It is not in me. I know not of that existence. I cannot comprehend things unless they go through the mill of my mind. It is dangerous ground to walk upon out loud... There is much to be risked, regarding both, how I am being perceived, and another's learned stability, should one's reality be completely wrapped up into that which I contemplate out loud. There are no rights and wrongs, per se... I steer clear of those terms as often as my conscious mind allows... There is evidence of that which is greater than us, and we all assess it within our own measure of ability, according to that which we have already accepted as our own personal truth. If it brings good upon the face of this earth... do it. Better spelling but I'm too drunk now to read AND comprehend all of that... |
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Thanks Dav777... |
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Thanks Dav777... Any time! |
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Edited by
Jeanniebean
on
Mon 03/31/08 09:03 PM
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Ya know Jeannie, There is a woman whom I love so so dearly, she is I... in so many ways... we are of one, and have been for what seems like an eternity. This woman who reminded me who I was gets bothered by witnessing my participation in threads such as this, where it seems like my goal is to de-construct one's beliefs. It is very hard for some to perceive what I do, and why. In my mind there lies something that I am aware of but cannot describe. At times, I work backwards to the goal of assessing the conclusion, should a conclusion have been previously drawn. I have never thought inside of a box. I have never been a follower. It is not in me. I know not of that existence. I cannot comprehend things unless they go through the mill of my mind. It is dangerous ground to walk upon out loud... There is much to be risked, regarding both, how I am being perceived, and anothers learned stability, should one's reality be completely wrapped up into that which I contemplate out loud. There are no rights and wrongs, per se... I steer clear of those terms as often as my conscious mind allows... There is evidence of that which is greater than us, and we all assess it within our own measure of ability, according to that which we have already accepted as our own personal truth. If it brings good upon the face of this earth... do it. My beliefs are still in tact, I have always tried to leave my self open for new perspectives. I evaluate information and consider it. I have evaluated you and Feral's idea's and simply decided that the label "pantheist" probably does not describe me accurately. Hence if a label is what people want, they can call me agnostic or even atheist. What ever suits them. It does not change what I actually believe. Jeannie.... |
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But if he didn't have human qualities why would he want to create humans? That to me doesn't make any sense. Actually God didn’t set out to create humans. That’s the biblical picture. But that’s not what’s printed in the universe. According to the universe humans evolved from a whole line of lesser animals. God was experimenting the whole way along. Humans are merely a phase that God is going through. Clearly God enjoyed being dinosaurs for a while. They lasted about 300 millions years. It must have been fun being a dinosaur. Humans are barely one million years old yet. In fact, modern humans as we know ourselves are barely even a half-millions years old. And if you want to only consider are extreme modern form we’re only just born. Humans were hardly the “goal” of the universe by a long shot. Just because we happen to be humans doesn’t mean that the creator of this universe is like us. After all, we aren’t the only creatures in this universe. With over 100 billion galaxies and 70 sextillion stars just in the observable part of the universe alone, I seriously doubt that planet earth is the only planet containing life. We can’t just look at planet earth and think of god’s motives. There’s a whole vast universe out there that is so vast it’s beyond our ability to comprehend. To believe that we are modeled after God is truly naïve. What about all the rest of the animals, what are they modeled after? Yes this is true except for the "To believe that we are modeled after God is truly naïve" part. |
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But if he didn't have human qualities why would he want to create humans? That to me doesn't make any sense. Actually God didn’t set out to create humans. That’s the biblical picture. But that’s not what’s printed in the universe. According to the universe humans evolved from a whole line of lesser animals. God was experimenting the whole way along. Humans are merely a phase that God is going through. Clearly God enjoyed being dinosaurs for a while. They lasted about 300 millions years. It must have been fun being a dinosaur. Humans are barely one million years old yet. In fact, modern humans as we know ourselves are barely even a half-millions years old. And if you want to only consider are extreme modern form we’re only just born. Humans were hardly the “goal” of the universe by a long shot. Just because we happen to be humans doesn’t mean that the creator of this universe is like us. After all, we aren’t the only creatures in this universe. With over 100 billion galaxies and 70 sextillion stars just in the observable part of the universe alone, I seriously doubt that planet earth is the only planet containing life. We can’t just look at planet earth and think of god’s motives. There’s a whole vast universe out there that is so vast it’s beyond our ability to comprehend. To believe that we are modeled after God is truly naïve. What about all the rest of the animals, what are they modeled after? Yes this is true except for the "To believe that we are modeled after God is truly naïve" part. Have you spoken directly to God? |
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But if he didn't have human qualities why would he want to create humans? That to me doesn't make any sense. Actually God didn’t set out to create humans. That’s the biblical picture. But that’s not what’s printed in the universe. According to the universe humans evolved from a whole line of lesser animals. God was experimenting the whole way along. Humans are merely a phase that God is going through. Clearly God enjoyed being dinosaurs for a while. They lasted about 300 millions years. It must have been fun being a dinosaur. Humans are barely one million years old yet. In fact, modern humans as we know ourselves are barely even a half-millions years old. And if you want to only consider are extreme modern form we’re only just born. Humans were hardly the “goal” of the universe by a long shot. Just because we happen to be humans doesn’t mean that the creator of this universe is like us. After all, we aren’t the only creatures in this universe. With over 100 billion galaxies and 70 sextillion stars just in the observable part of the universe alone, I seriously doubt that planet earth is the only planet containing life. We can’t just look at planet earth and think of god’s motives. There’s a whole vast universe out there that is so vast it’s beyond our ability to comprehend. To believe that we are modeled after God is truly naïve. What about all the rest of the animals, what are they modeled after? Yes this is true except for the "To believe that we are modeled after God is truly naïve" part. Have you spoken directly to God?  What do you mean by that? Have I spoken to him? Yes via prayer I have. Why do you care? What are you insinuating? |
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But if he didn't have human qualities why would he want to create humans? That to me doesn't make any sense. Actually God didn’t set out to create humans. That’s the biblical picture. But that’s not what’s printed in the universe. According to the universe humans evolved from a whole line of lesser animals. God was experimenting the whole way along. Humans are merely a phase that God is going through. Clearly God enjoyed being dinosaurs for a while. They lasted about 300 millions years. It must have been fun being a dinosaur. Humans are barely one million years old yet. In fact, modern humans as we know ourselves are barely even a half-millions years old. And if you want to only consider are extreme modern form we’re only just born. Humans were hardly the “goal” of the universe by a long shot. Just because we happen to be humans doesn’t mean that the creator of this universe is like us. After all, we aren’t the only creatures in this universe. With over 100 billion galaxies and 70 sextillion stars just in the observable part of the universe alone, I seriously doubt that planet earth is the only planet containing life. We can’t just look at planet earth and think of god’s motives. There’s a whole vast universe out there that is so vast it’s beyond our ability to comprehend. To believe that we are modeled after God is truly naïve. What about all the rest of the animals, what are they modeled after? Yes this is true except for the "To believe that we are modeled after God is truly naïve" part. Have you spoken directly to God? What do you mean by that? Have I spoken to him? Yes via prayer I have. Why do you care? What are you insinuating? Has he told you his word in person, or did you read what other people told you he said? |
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Ya know Jeannie, There is a woman whom I love so so dearly, she is I... in so many ways... we are of one, and have been for what seems like an eternity. This woman who reminded me who I was gets bothered by witnessing my participation in threads such as this, where it seems like my goal is to de-construct one's beliefs. It is very hard for some to perceive what I do, and why. In my mind there lies something that I am aware of but cannot describe. At times, I work backwards to the goal of assessing the conclusion, should a conclusion have been previously drawn. I have never thought inside of a box. I have never been a follower. It is not in me. I know not of that existence. I cannot comprehend things unless they go through the mill of my mind. It is dangerous ground to walk upon out loud... There is much to be risked, regarding both, how I am being perceived, and anothers learned stability, should one's reality be completely wrapped up into that which I contemplate out loud. There are no rights and wrongs, per se... I steer clear of those terms as often as my conscious mind allows... There is evidence of that which is greater than us, and we all assess it within our own measure of ability, according to that which we have already accepted as our own personal truth. If it brings good upon the face of this earth... do it. My beliefs are still in tact, I have always tried to leave my self open for new perspectives. I evaluate information and consider it. I have evaluated you and Feral's idea's and simply decided that the label "pantheist" probably does not describe me accurately. Hence if a label is what people want, they can call me agnostic or even atheist. What ever suits them. It does not change what I actually believe. Jeannie.... I would say Jeannie is Jeannie and still searching for what fits for her.....but I personally think your perfect just the way you are.....So I think I will have no label for ya....your the bean......or Jeannie.....or if I don't agree with ya on something the Jeanniebean-meister.....lmao |
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Ok, I’m late – catching up: From the beginning.
So, if 'God' is indivisible, then all things must be of 'God'. Then what factor caused the need for this separate existance? Moreover, without an ability to distinguish, how could any need be addressed as such by this 'God'? I’m sorry to say that this idea is argued by the standards of human experience. There are assumptions made in this idea, like: self awareness requires “perception”. These words, properly placed, in human context indicates that god would require sensual stimuli in order to be aware of self. This leads to yet another assumption, that god must have shape, mass and form in order to find make sensual comparisons of self with respect to OTHER substances. This, once again, leads to that question, if no ‘thing’ pre-existed god than was god everything that existed? In being so, what need would “all that existed” have of perception or awareness? Does that mean that all that existed could not create? Does that mean that all that existed had no intelligence? Remember when you answer these questions, you must consider the basis (human experience and knowledge) from which the answers come. Example: Does not DNA have a level of intelligence? (you see Creative, I have learned from a great advocate of the devil – how to play the game)  The mere fact that anything exists at all is totally illogical based on logic as we know it. Our ‘logic’ is really nothing more than our intuition gained from the experience of this world. People who think that logic actually holds any value beyond physical existence have to be nuts. Logic is nothing more than a product of the physical world. Well, there ya go – substantiation of my response above. If this notion of it's own self-perception were the case, then what constitutes it's Godliness before manifestation? For if a 'God' needs it's own manifestation and/or creation in order to perceive itself, then it does not exist without. It is dependant upon manifestation and/or creation to be aware of it's own existance, therefore it does not exist. There could be no purpose(self-perception) without the ability to perceive, which could not happen until manifestation and/or creation. I have to agree that the logic creating this science fictional believe does not hold value worthy of substantiating the creative ideas that stem from a picture of god manifesting itself into physical form. After all, if god was all that existed, but god was not physical form, then how could god possibly gain insight into ‘self’ though physical manifestation? I think Pantheism can be viewed in many different ways by different people. It's not an absolute. It a concept, and as with all concepts it's malleable by perception. For some, Pantheism can be a sort of solipsism. For other’s it’s not even close to solipsism. I think much of it has to do with how the imagination is caught, and how free your brain is from aberrant dust bunnies. Itself 2. The void 3. The movement or vibration. (The word) The word is the vibration. All things thereafter was formed out of the vibration. In my opinion, this is one of those “manifestations”, of a creative nature, intended to explain a belief to others. But what need does it fulfill in humans to share creatively manifested belief systems? One explanation, of that which cannot be confirmed, is as good as any other. So the creator of the belief and the believers are simply looking for answers to alleviate a burden. Is the burden an inability to accept the unknowable? Or is the burden the inability to accept that awareness does not make us immortal? |
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So the creator of the belief and the believers are simply looking for answers to alleviate a burden. Is the burden an inability to accept the unknowable? Or is the burden the inability to accept that awareness does not make us immortal? The burden (for the intellect) is the unknowable. The quest for truth is God seeking Itself. Believers believe so that they can get on with their lives and forget the questions they cannot answer with the intellect or with logic. And if God could advise us, God would say: Just live your lives. That is why you are here. Live your lives. JB |
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Edited by
iamgeorgiagirl
on
Wed 04/02/08 02:35 AM
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But if he didn't have human qualities why would he want to create humans? That to me doesn't make any sense. Actually God didn’t set out to create humans. That’s the biblical picture. But that’s not what’s printed in the universe. According to the universe humans evolved from a whole line of lesser animals. God was experimenting the whole way along. Humans are merely a phase that God is going through. Clearly God enjoyed being dinosaurs for a while. They lasted about 300 millions years. It must have been fun being a dinosaur. Humans are barely one million years old yet. In fact, modern humans as we know ourselves are barely even a half-millions years old. And if you want to only consider are extreme modern form we’re only just born. Humans were hardly the “goal” of the universe by a long shot. Just because we happen to be humans doesn’t mean that the creator of this universe is like us. After all, we aren’t the only creatures in this universe. With over 100 billion galaxies and 70 sextillion stars just in the observable part of the universe alone, I seriously doubt that planet earth is the only planet containing life. We can’t just look at planet earth and think of god’s motives. There’s a whole vast universe out there that is so vast it’s beyond our ability to comprehend. To believe that we are modeled after God is truly naïve. What about all the rest of the animals, what are they modeled after? Yes this is true except for the "To believe that we are modeled after God is truly naïve" part. Have you spoken directly to God? What do you mean by that? Have I spoken to him? Yes via prayer I have. Why do you care? What are you insinuating? Has he told you his word in person, or did you read what other people told you he said? Dav777 why are you quoting everything I say practically from thread to thread? Why did you ask me such a question? I know you said you were drunk earlier and you are getting on my nerves. BACK OFF!   I haven't claimed to know what God said except for what is written in scripture.
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Dav777 are you really my ex husband?
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